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Examples of Siege Engines

Garnfellow

SOC-13
Peer of the Realm
Examples of Siege Engines?

From Agent of the Imperium:

Siege Engine. A naval vessel intended to launch ordnance against a stationary target (a world or an installation). Like Carriers, Siege Engines operate at a distance from the main battle.

Siege also shows up as a mission type in the T5 main rules (and was a naval assignment in CT High Guard and MegaTraveller).

Ortillery goes way back to CT, so the basic concept has been around a while, but I think AotI is the first use of "siege" as a ship class in Traveller.

Are there any canonical examples of Siege Engines, or ships that in retrospect would be reclassified as Siege Engines?
 
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In Traders and Gunboats for MgT there is a ship crammed with missiles intended for such a purpose. I'm away from my books so I can't remember any details.
 
In Traders and Gunboats for MgT there is a ship crammed with missiles intended for such a purpose. I'm away from my books so I can't remember any details.
I am wondering if any ship with the "Missile" mission modifier should pretty much be reclassified as a Siege Engine. The decanonized Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium, for example, had a missile battleship (BM-15) that might be better classed as a SM-15.

The T20 line (set in the Rim War period) had some bombardment cruisers that would fit the description of a Siege Engine.
 
Siege warships in AotI make rocks into weapons. They have mass drivers for dropping rocks on targets, and makers that can turn asteroids into ortillary. It appears to be a mission designation for a capital (ship) rather than a ship class in itself.
From AotI:
“Put three of the capitals in equidistant stationary orbit. Dispatch the other two as
siege engines
to the planetoid belt. Get some pickets there at high speed to help locate
what they will need.
“The siege engines will start building kinetics tomorrow. Are they properly
stocked? Tell me the foreseeables.”
“The critical path constricts on flash chips. Everything else can be lasered and
makered. They did an exercise last season with excellent results. The chip stockpile is
full; that’s just a commodity. We have more than enough.”
Our siege engines reached the belt ahead of schedule and started work immediately.
The ships extended their rail guns and prepared for a long campaign.
They harvested FeNi chunks, peeled them of their outer husks, then sliced them
into manageable pieces. Lasers engraved them with textures to help them plunge through
atmosphere.
Makers processed the shucks into thrusters that they spot welded into place.
In a last step, crew swarmed over the newborn kinetics and inserted their brains:
flash-programed chips that knew where and when to strike. Then they launched.
 
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Siege also shows up as a mission type in the T5 main rules.

Ortillary goes way back to CT, so the basic concept has been around a while, but I think the above examples are the first uses of this specific term "siege" in Traveller.

Are there any canonical examples of Siege Engines, or ships that in retrospect would be reclassified as Siege Engines?

The Arakoine class Strike Cruiser from S9 fits the description though not the name.

It is "designed for ground support and surface bombardment" with "large missile resources" and "both meson gun and particle accelerator weaponry" plus a "large phalanx of fighter craft" capable of close defense and ground support.

Particle accelerators are not good surface attack weapons so a bit odd that they would be highlighted in the description.

Some capabilities: 50 ktons, J3, 4G, meson gun spinal, 1 bay PA, 40 small missile bays, repulsor bay, ND, Meson Screen, 100 troops, 100 fighters.

In T5 you could replace the PA with a rail gun and swap half the missile bays for ortillery and maybe you have a siege.
 
I think one of the big features of Sieges * in T5 is meant to be the Rail Gun, firing large slabs of forged metal obtained from comets [edit] (I meant asteroids).

* I dislike the terms Siege, Capital etc. Might as well stick with the naval paradigm since its so entrenched and call them something like Bombarment Cruiser.

I'd like to differentiate a Siege vessel from an Ortillary platform.

Ortillery is Orbital Artillery, a vessel or other platform in orbit around a world firing on to the surface. Precision is probably also a factor with ortillery, with Forward Observers directing the targeting.

A Siege on the other hand sits beyond the battle and snipes or floods an area with massive fast projectiles for taking out installations, like highports, dockyards and stations, or causing massive destruction on the surface of a world.

In my head at least:

Ortillery = Close and Precision fires

Siege = Far and Massive Area Bombardment


Having said that I quite happy to think of Ortillery as a sub-set of Siege.
 
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I really liked that Marc shook things up and adopted new terms for warships within the Third Imperium. It makes the setting more unique than just using USN designations...
 
* I dislike the terms Siege, Capital etc. Might as well stick with the naval paradigm since its so entrenched and call them something like Bombarment Cruiser.
The term "bombardment cruiser" would certainly fit with past canonical descriptions of such ships. From Mongoose Traveller's Sector Fleet:

The support vessel of choice for orbital attack is the 50,000 ton Warspite class bombardment cruiser. This is the Imperial Navy’s only vessel optimized for planetary attack, though many other classes have a secondary bombardment capability. The Warspite class cruisers are armed with a mix of mass drivers for mass damage, missile launchers and meson gun bays for relatively precise strikes. A secondary armament of lasers for close-in defense is also carried, and the vessel has the capability to use them in pinpoint-strike mode.

Warspite class bombardment cruisers carry three large (4000t) Bombardment Support Craft. Sometimes called “trash compactors”, these vessels are equipped to gather up small asteroids and fragments of wrecked warships for compacting into mass-driver projectiles. Being bombarded with the wreckage of one’s own system defense squadron has a severe morale effect upon the enemy. The physical damage tends to be more significant, all the same.

Although maybe the 4kt "Bombardment Support Craft" are the true Siege Weapons here.
 
Are Siege Engines depicted on any of the "ship cards" that Marc has been handing out at recent conventions?
 
I really liked that Marc shook things up and adopted new terms for warships within the Third Imperium. It makes the setting more unique than just using USN designations...

The USN only has a handful anymore; the classic "Escort, Frigate, Cruiser, Battlecruiser, Battleship" is pre WWI UK.

The current US system is a mess...
CVN Aircraft Carrier
LHA Amphibious Assault
LHD Amphibious Assault Ship
LPD Amphibious Transport Dock
LSD Landing Ship Dock
CG Guided Missile Cruiser
DDG Guided Missile Destroyer
FFG Guided Missile Frigate
LCSLittoral Combat Ship
LCC Amphibious Command
PC Patrol Ship
MCM Mine Countermeasures
SSNSubmarine &/or Attack Submarine
SSGNGuided Missile Submarine
SSBNBallistic Missile Submarine
AS Submarine Tender
AFSB(I)Afloat Forward Staging Base
T-AOEFast Combat Support
T-AKEDry Cargo Ship
T-AOReplenishment Oiler
T-AGOSOcean Surveilance Ship
T-AGMMissile Range Instrumentation
T-AGSOceanographic Survey or Navigation Test Support
T-AHHospital Ship
T-ATFFleet Ocean Tug
the Bk5 tables are an idealized and expanded 1960's system.
 
I really liked that Marc shook things up and adopted new terms for warships within the Third Imperium. It makes the setting more unique than just using USN designations...

Okay you caught me having a grump :devil:

Actually I've just looked at the BBB to refresh my memory and the table on p286 shows that Siege is a "Type", which is a broad category that includes many of the traditional naval mission specific names, like cruiser, with plenty of non traditional ones too.

Are Siege Engines depicted on any of the "ship cards" that Marc has been handing out at recent conventions?

See there's what my grump was about; in the T5 BBB its not a Siege Engine, its just a Siege, which is a bit confusing or nebulus....


Anyway, the Types on p.286 are: Offensive, Defensive, Independent, Supply and Siege.

Sieges are broken down by mission into: Ortillery, Assault, and Sentinel.

In AoI both Siege and Siege Engine are used and interestingly it says they are for launching ordnance against stationary objects (is anything stationary in space? ;) )

AoI usage of the T5 rules often leans towards language how it is used in the Imperium which is fun, but perhaps restricting when considering what you can do with whats in the rules.
 
Back with my books. The ship from T&G is (prepare yourself) the Siege-class bombardment ship, clocking in at 600 tons. It mounts three missile bays, a torpedo barbette and a pair of missle-defense turrets. It carries 500 missiles (mostly of the ortillery type) and 20 torpedoes.
 
Historically, from the Age of Sail, you had bomb vessels armed with (a) mortar(s).

These were followed by monitors from the ironclad age onwards, though arguably gunboats would a smaller variant.

Strike cruisers were proposed, and I would suppose Arsenal Ships would be their natural successors, being more specialized in their purpose, though what you ended up with was the guided missile attack submarine, since anything that could be seen bobbing up and down on the water would have to devote a substantial part of it's armament deterring aircraft.

There seems to be some sentiment for retaining a capability like a capital ship sized gun, like a sixteen incher, being in terms of ammunition cost a lot cheaper than a missile, and rather impactful, though that may have shifted a somewhat more compact but longer ranged railgun.

The modern issue with such specialized ships, is that when facing a near peer, and not just blasting some insurgents out of difficult terrain, the vessels need the capability to protect itself against counter, or pre emptive, strikes. A submarine can do the pop up and disappear trick.
 
Strike cruisers were proposed, and I would suppose Arsenal Ships would be their natural successors, being more specialized in their purpose, though what you ended up with was the guided missile attack submarine, since anything that could be seen bobbing up and down on the water would have to devote a substantial part of it's armament deterring aircraft.

A side note that may interest someone on the thread, since we are wrangling with naming conventions.

A few years back when I was designing MT capital ships I was struggling with the meanings of some of the canon ship names. Strike seemed to be used to describe planetary attack ships. One example that led me to that conclusion was the Wind class Strike Carrier in S9. Don't remember if there were others now.

I didn't like the use of Strike for that purpose because the usage seems to be conflated with Bombardment and Assault. I developed some in-house definitions to clarify things, at least in my mind, because I was trying to determine what the missions would mean in terms of purposeful design work.

What I came up with was:

Assault: an auxiliary combination troop carrier and fighter carrier with some ortillery for supporting the surface troops in the third phase of planetary attack (seizing the lodgement).

Note: Phase one was isolating the planet from the enemy fleet and phase two was reduction of the surface, subsurface, and orbital defenses. Phase four would be expanding the lodgement and five would be consolidation.

Bombardment: A cruiser or battle focused on phase two. Almost never state-of-the-art but rather an older ship with upgrades and weaponry replacement to optimize it for the task.

Note: Phase one is the job of the battle fleet. Upon completion a bombardment task group moves in for phase two. Then the assault task group begins phase three culminating in battle hand-off to a surface commander with supporting task group with troop transports.

Strike: Unrelated to the above. Strike ships are raiders designed to be able to jump in, cause destruction, and jump back out without having to refuel. Usually limited to J3, sometimes J2 because the fuel requirements are high. The same fuel requirements mean that the ships are focused on offensive firepower with very little protection / defensive weaponry.

Intruder: Deep raiders with J5 or J6 capability. This mission profile has many dangers but can be useful to raid a system with a distant gas giant or other fuel source that allows the task group to refuel and depart before enemy fleet elements from the inner system can respond to the threat.

There was more to the definitions than that but I don't have my old files handy. If anyone is interested I can dig them up.
 
Assault: an auxiliary combination troop carrier and fighter carrier with some ortillery for supporting the surface troops in the third phase of planetary attack (seizing the lodgement).

Bombardment: A cruiser or battle focused on phase two. Almost never state-of-the-art but rather an older ship with upgrades and weaponry replacement to optimize it for the task.

Strike: Unrelated to the above. Strike ships are raiders designed to be able to jump in, cause destruction, and jump back out without having to refuel. Usually limited to J3, sometimes J2 because the fuel requirements are high. The same fuel requirements mean that the ships are focused on offensive firepower with very little protection / defensive weaponry.

Intruder: Deep raiders with J5 or J6 capability. This mission profile has many dangers but can be useful to raid a system with a distant gas giant or other fuel source that allows the task group to refuel and depart before enemy fleet elements from the inner system can respond to the threat.

I use essentially identical definitions IMTU. And I am also designing by MT rules, albeit heavily house ruled.

I did have to design mass driver spinals in order to have siege vessels make any sense. IMTU mesons are too short ranged to provide the ability to attack a planetary surface from any reasonable distance.
 
Assault implies a ground element.

Attack would be a frontline fleet carrier; or on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

Strike would be hit and run.

Bombardment seems more of a mission.

However, the Imperium might favour more archaic terms.
 
The Skimkish class light carrier would be my suggestion it has a large complement of heavy fighters. four 50t meson bays (useless for anything space combat wise but really nasty for planetary bombardment), lots of missile turrets and lousy agility - i.e. of no use in space combat at TL14/15.
 
Ship Taxonomy

Out of curiosity, I pulled some ship type definitions across different editions:

Ship TypeCT Fighting ShipsMT Fighting Ships of the Shattered ImperiumMGT Sector FleetAgent of the Imperium
Battleship [Jump]-capable vessels which are, due to their armament and protection, capable of standing in the line of battle. While battleships (or, as they are often called, dreadnoughts) generally have little better in the way of primary armament than cruisers, their extensive secondary batteries render them virtually immune to missile and small craft attack while their bulk provides a tremendous ability to absorb damage and keep fighting. [A] ship which, due to its armament and protection, is capable of standing in the line of battle. When a battleship meets any lesser type of ship, its victory is almost guaranteed. When battleships on two sides meet, victory goes to the better armed, better armored, and better directed ship. . . . Besides battleships, there are dreadnoughts, battle riders, and battle tenders. (Listed as “Capital Vessels”) [Designed] for heavy combat in the line-of-battle. They exist to meet heavy enemy units and crush them in squadron or fleet actions. Most capital ships are built around the biggest spinal mount they can carry, backed up by a powerful secondary armament of bay weapons. Examples include Superdreadnought, Dreadnought, Battleship, Battlecruiser, Battle Rider A Battleship, Capital Ship, Dreadnought, or Ship-of-the-Line. A fighting ship with the strongest of armor and the most powerful of weapons.
Cruiser [The] smallest ships to carry the large spinal weapons needed to cause serious damage to a large armored ship, although most are too lightly armored to stand in the line of battle. They form the cadre of commerce raiding task forces and provide fire support for planetary invasions. Sizes range from 20,000 to 100,000 tons. [More] lightly armored and less heavily armed than battleships. To unarmed, unarmored ships, this difference is negligible, since a cruiser can easily attack and destroy any noncombatant ships. Cruisers are assigned to support battleships and carry combat to areas where a battleship is not considered necessary. [The] workhorse units of the Imperial Navy, and can be encountered singly or as part of a task force. Cruisers engage in patrol and flag-showing operations, deterring piracy and unrest by their imposing presence. Examples include Interdiction Tender, Reconnaissance Cruiser, Escort Cruiser, Rift Cruiser, Light Cruiser, Missile Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Frontier Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser A fighting naval vessel (other than a Capital) created to operate independently and project power against non-fighting ships.
Carrier [Designed] to carry large numbers of small combat boats, termed either fighters or system defense boats, for use in the screen of the battle fleet or in support of a planetary invasion. Given the limited weaponry of fighters and light boats, they are little more than an annoying distraction in a major fleet action, but they can be extremely effective against ships of cruiser class or less. [Designed] to carry large numbers of small combat craft, which in turn attack the enemy’s combatants or world surfaces. (Listed as “Carriers and Tenders”) The Imperial Navy is not greatly enamored of fighters and other sublight craft. However, they do have their uses, and jump-capable vessels are required to transport them. Examples include Fleet Carrier, Strike Carrier, Light Carrier, Battle Tender A naval vessel intended to transport, launch, and support other vessels which participate in a conflict. Carriers typically operate at a distance from the main battle.
Escort [Small] ships of up to 5000 tons, and are meant to be light support craft for larger ships, primarily cruisers. Escorts are also widely used for convoy protection and commerce raiding roles. [Vessels] intended to protect and assist larger vessels. They are capable of independent action, but are usually assigned to support battleships and cruisers. (Listed as “Escorts and Couriers) Escorts keep smaller enemy vessels away from the high-value units, preventing the enemy from conducing effective reconnaissance or launching a strike with one-shot weapons. Examples include Fleet Escort, Destroyer, Missile Corvette, Close Escort, Fleet Courier -
Scout The Scout Service controls a wide variety of craft up to cruiser class, but scouts proper are vessels up to 200 tons designed for exploration, survey, and courier work. In time of war, such ships are pressed into military service, but have negligible combat value. [Survey] and exploration ships normally employed in the scout service. They are transferred to naval duty in time of war or when otherwise necessary. Many scout ships are couriers for the navy. - -
Auxiliary (Listed as “Other”) A wide variety of supporting ships and boats of the Imperial Navy are deployed in the Spinward Marches. Many do not fit into the five categories presented above, and they are commonly classed as auxiliaries. A representative sample is presented in the final section of this supplement. [Although not listed as a ship type on page 5, all tankers are grouped under this classification] [The] noncombatants of the fleet. They linger on the fringes of the battle area and resupply the fighting ships with fuel, missiles, and provisions. Many are not armed, but experience says some auxiliaries do face combat and need to be capable of at least defending themselves. (Listed as “Repair, Logistics and Supply Vessels”) These unglamorous and often-overlooked vessels carry fuel, missiles, spares, tools, food… and everything else the fleet requires. Examples include Fleet Logistics Vessel, Tanker/Resupply Ship, Dromedary, Freighter, Troop Transport, Fleet Auxiliary, Reserve Auxiliary (Listed as “A. Minor.”) A naval vessel intended to support, refuel, repair, re-arm or communicate between other ships, especially Capitals. Auxiliaries typically have no place in an actual battle, although some may be Armored.
Siege - - - A naval vessel intended to launch ordnance against a stationary target (a world or an installation). Like Carriers, Siege Engines operate at a distance from the main battle.
Planetary Attack Vessels - - [Designed] to minimize the losses taken [during planetary assaults] while maximizing the effectiveness of the attacking force. Examples include Assault Tenders, Bombardment Cruisers, Marine Carriers, Assault Ship Landing, Assault Lander, Fire Support Craft -
Patrol Vessels - - [The] most commonly-encountered ships of the Imperial Navy. They patrol the spacelanes to deter, counter and punish illegal activity such as smuggling and piracy. Patrol ships are often pressed into service as escorts in time of war, while in times of tension they act as “tripwire” forces to warn of enemy action. Examples include Patrol Cruisers, Colonial Cruisers, Huscarle Cruisers, System Control Ship, Fleet Picket -
Thoughts:
  • All editions basically agree on Battleship, Cruiser, Carrier, and Auxilliary.
  • CT and MT would classify a Battle Tender as a battleship, but MGT and AotI would classify it as a carrier.
  • Escorts are a class in every edition but AotI.
  • Scout as a distinct type drops out of use -- and I don't think that's a big loss, as MGT incorporates couriers into Escorts.
  • Siege is really its own thing. MGT has a couple of unique classes -- "Planetary Attack Vessels" and "Patrol Vessels." At first I thought Siege fit with the former, but not really.
 
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The T20 supplement Fighting Ships (set in 990) uses familiar classes of battleship/cruiser/carrier/escort, and adds patrol vessels.
 
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