Human Psychology vs. Vargr Psychology

[Madmax]

I've had a thought about Vargr Psychology, and I would like to hear what others think about this idea.


Humans often have a very hard time understanding Vargr behavior, especially on a societal level. Actions that would be seen as foolish, reckless, or even as having the potential to destroy any social structure in a human context are normal, accepted, and seem to do no long term harm in a Vargr context.
The main example is the commission of crimes. Not only do Vargr often not hesitate to commit what humans would consider crimes, but Vargr society as a whole seems to have little to any laws in the first place.
Vargr social structures are routinely overthrown, but, somehow, the society manages to continue and even prosper anyway. If the same events had happened in a Human society there would be a very high risk, if not certainty, of the society collapsing and all economic activity grinding to a halt, with massive loss of life and destruction.
So, what is so different about Vargr psychology that results in the Vargr society being so unstable (compared to humans) by any short term measurements, but so stable in the long term (compared to humans)?
Much discussion has been made about the pack psychology of Vargr. The affect of the pack mentality does well explain the short term instability of Vargr social structures, but it does little to address the ability of Vargr to just shrug off such change and continue on without major disruption.
Here is something that may:


Let us go back to about three million years ago to the plains of Africa. At that time our Human ancestors living there were only about half as large as modern humans, and were just beginning to get the hang of such skills as throwing rocks. This allowed them to, sometimes, chase away predators that threatened their clan. These predators would be mostly one or another type of large feline, though there were others as well. It appears that, eventually, a peculiar combination of genes arose in these pre-humans as a side affect of their gradually increasing intelligences. These genes resulted in their fear of predators becoming anger at predators. Instead of just fleeing from such danger, or merely scaring away the menace, they took to actively hunting the beasts that dared to enter their territory and kill their kin. They had invented REVENGE. This natural instinct they had developed became a key part to their further development. They no longer feared predators, it was the predators that learned to fear them. Eventual they dominated the food chain, and their populations started to really grow.
Unfortunately the instinct for revenge also ended up being applied to other humans if there was a dispute about much of anything. You take my walking stick, I take your spear. You take my spear, I take your axe. You take my axe, I take your woman. You take my woman, I take your life.
It was probably quickly realized that if there were to be settlements of more than a single clan in size there needed to be rules against actions that could result in the never ending escalating spiral of revenge, and there needed to be some sort of neutral outside authority that could impose solutions when such rules were broken. Without such a structure the settlement would self-destruct quickly. Stringent laws, and the institutions necessary to enforce them, and the social stability to provide continuity to these institutions, are all vitally necessary for Human society to exist.
And they are all totally incomprehensible to Vargr.
Vargr ancestors were the apex predator in their environment long before the Ancients took them from Terra. On Lair, as the Ancients raised them to Sophont status, the Vargr were still the apex predator. The Vargr have never had an instinct for revenge, they have never needed it. As a result they have never had a great need for Laws and the institutions to enforce them. Vargr social structures are like dust in the wind because they are not really needed. There is no ever present menace of society collapsing into bloody chaos without them.
It would be inaccurate to say that Vargr are forgiving. Forgiveness means that one was angry, but is not any longer. The Vargr never really get angry (in the human sense) in the first place.
It would be more accurate to say that Vargr just don't hold grudges, and certainly don't have any interest in "pay back". If a Vargr does show signs of this sort of Human like attitude they tend to be locked away in mental hospitals. Meanwhile humans that display a Vargr like tendency to indifference to social structures also tend to end up in mental hospitals.

Now, there is one Sophont species that is even more fixated on revenge than Humans. The K'Kree. But that is a whole 'nuther story.

 

[Condottiere]

Being tribal explains a lot about human behaviour.

Never go full tribal.

With the Vargr, it's more nuclear.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

K'Kree seem to have a concept of pre-emptive revenge.

 

[Madmax]

Being tribal explains a lot about human behaviour.

Never go full tribal.

With the Vargr, it's more nuclear.

What is the mechanism though? In other words what is it about tribalism that explains the tendency of disrupted human societies to go into violent collapse spirals? And why would nuclear be any different? And what exactly is meant by tribalism and what is its origin?

 

[Madmax]

K'Kree seem to have a concept of pre-emptive revenge.

Well, maybe.
I tend to see it more as holding a grudge for their ancestors that were attacked by predators thousands of years ago. Perhaps the galaxy's longest held, deepest, grudge.

 

[vegas]

I've had a thought about Vargr Psychology, and I would like to hear what others think about this idea....

Fun topic, Madmax. And it is one I have done some work on for my next Vargr-centric campaign. Not suprisingly, I have a few ideas of my own that I'll share if I get the time to pull them together. But you asked for thoughts on you theory. There are things in the OP I like and others I don't.

My first reaction is that I don't love it because it is built on a premises about humans that I don't think has validity or supported in in real-world anthropology/sociobiology, to wit:

1) I am not aware of any scientist that suggests human evolution or society has been primarily or even significantly driven by revenge-seeking behavior.

2) The archeological record doesn't support the idea that a big part of early human behavior had to do with them taking "to actively hunting the beasts that dared to enter their territory and kill their kin." In fact, it is an item of debate today whether early man and society was primarily a product of being a hunter at all or rather it was cooperation that came from being prey.

So for me humans as the "vengeful ape" doesn't ring true.

Nevertheless, I do like is the idea that Vargr don't feel revenge and this is something very different about them. Revenge-seeking is likely a maladaptive behavior in humans. How can it be good from an evolutionary perspective to waste psychic and material resources on revenge? Surely we would be more evolutionary fit if focused only on productive behaviors.

Of course we are told that Vargr "prone to fighting without regard for consequence" [CT:Lib N-Z] so you have to square that fact with your non-vengeful hypothesis, but I think that can be done. If you have a scenario in mind where you want to expose and explore these differences in Vargr psychology, I think that could be fun.

In other words what is it about tribalism that explains the tendency of disrupted human societies to go into violent collapse spirals? And why would nuclear be any different? And what exactly is meant by tribalism and what is its origin?

I'll give that a go as we await for Condi to reply.

But first, I don't think I agree with the premise that "disrupted human societies go into violent collapse spirals" nor that Vargr society is presented in canon as being more stable. It is the Vargr polities and cultures that are said to be very fluid compared to human, so I am really not sure what you are thinking of there.

But as for "what is meant by tribalism" and how it might be different than Vargr packism (for lack of a better word) I think we can get some mileage exploring that to explain some human/vargr difference.

Tribalism, in paleo-anthropological terms, refers to human social behavior of identifying with and sharing cultural ties with a group larger than the one they immediately lived with. Paleolithic man lived in "clans", a group of ~25 individuals. A tribe then consisted of ~20 clans.

Compare and contrast with wolf behavior. Packs on the high-end can also grow to ~25 individuals, but are structured primarily around 1 mated pair and a few seasons worth of their offspring. (Litter size ranges from 1-11 pups, depending on nutrition, with a mean of ~4). Wolf pups stay with the pack from 1 - 4 years, but in most cases all pups do disperse. Unrelated wolves can be adopted into a pack to 1) replace a dead alpha, or 2) if they are young males, especially if there are young females in the pack. Other relatives of the mated pair can also be present in a pack, e.g. a post-reproductive female with a daughter.

What might we make of this in Traveller terms? We read in canon [CT:AM3] that Vargr society:
• is characterized by endemic and rapid social change
• equal forces: consensus and informal authority vs. family/clan/tribe/nation loyalty
• little respect for formal authority, more respect for informal authority and superiors that are known to them

So here is a hypothesis: perhaps it because humans are more deeply tribal that they are more prone to construct and accept more abstract and distant relations of national and formalized authority, while Vargr are more deeply pack- (that is family-) oriented and while they have the concepts of clan/tribe/nation, they do not carry anywhere near the same weight that do for humans and as such formal authority is not impressive to them.

 

[Condottiere]

I'm sure that there are more accurate and complex definitions of tribalism, but basically it's finding common interests, and defending them.

So a collective revenge would be circling the wagons and eliminating a perceived threat.

I deliberately used the word nuclear, because I see them forming closer bonds, and revenge might be something more personal, I would guess a threat to the status of the group.

 

[whartung]

I haven't read any of the alien modules.

Do Vargr adopt any of the pack characteristics that dogs portray?

 

[mike wightman]

Why would they?

Vargr were uplifted from wolves and then evolved for 300,000 years on the world they were transplanted to.

Dogs evolved/were domesticated from from wolf like animals about 12,000 to 25,000 years ago.

 

[whulorigan]

I haven't read any of the alien modules.

Do Vargr adopt any of the pack characteristics that dogs portray?

Probably (or rather something analogous to Canine behavior). It is why Vargr tend to form small bands based on Charisma-dynamics, and why larger governments and organizations among them tend to rise and fall as more charismatic individuals come along and lead away members of the larger organization. Charisma dynamics require close interaction between members and the leader (or members and other charismatic members who follow the charismatic leader).

But keep in mind Vargr were not derived from dogs (which did not exist 300,000 years ago); they are derived from Canids (the Taxonomic Family Canidae), and likely included significant amounts of genetic material from various species of the Genus "Canis" (i.e. "Canines"), both extinct species as well as the ancestors of currently extant species, with possible genetic input from other non-Canine Canids as well. So their behavior need not be modeled entirely on modern Canis lupus (wolves) or Canis familiaris (dogs).


EDIT: And as Mike pointed out above, these base proto-Vargr then independently evolved in an alien world environment for 300,000 years.

 

[Condottiere]

I'll go with parallel evolution, and apparently, Vilani selective breeding programmes.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

Personally I'd put more stock on the fact the Vargr don't come from a species of hunter/gatherer primates but from pure hunters. I think it's the accumulation of commodities (like food) that has made the ape/human society, and led to the focus on private property.

If we had evolved from a strictly carnivore/hunter animal, we might see property (and therefore, the need to protect it from theft) as something temporary and look down on fools who encumber themselves with stuff we'd like to eat/play with/enjoy briefly before setting our eyes on something new and make up all kinds of laws and religions to keep each other in check. We might worry less about gaining long-term personal security and be more focused on our very immediate needs, be that on the personal of family/pack level.

 

[whulorigan]

Personally I'd put more stock on the fact the Vargr don't come from a species of hunter/gatherer primates but from pure hunters. I think it's the accumulation of commodities (like food) that has made the ape/human society, and led to the focus on private property.

If we had evolved from a strictly carnivore/hunter animal, we might see property (and therefore, the need to protect it from theft) as something temporary and look down on fools who encumber themselves with stuff we'd like to eat/play with/enjoy briefly before setting our eyes on something new and make up all kinds of laws and religions to keep each other in check. We might worry less about gaining long-term personal security and be more focused on our very immediate needs, be that on the personal of family/pack level.

Interesting insight.

 

[mike wightman]

I'll go with parallel evolution, and apparently, Vilani selective breeding programmes.

Must be new canon I am unaware of.
The Vilani were unaware of the Vargr for how long?

So the Vilani began selectively breeding Vargr when?

 

[vegas]

...Vargr don't come from a species of hunter/gatherer primates but from pure hunters. I think it's the accumulation of commodities (like food) that has made the ape/human society, and led to the focus on private property...

Another fun idea, but I'm not sure it works (at least for me) because it relies on dubious assumptions about both humans AND carnivores.

It is not all clear that paleolithic man wasn't in an immediate-return economy without food storage. What is clear from the archeological record is that those societies were sharing societies with labor divided by sex and large game were carried to a base camp for butchering. These are not behaviors that obviously give rise to modern concept of property.

A behavior that could be a genesis of property is territoriality, and that is a behavior shared by many carnivores and that wolves have in spades. Of course some primates do too, though it is interesting we can't make a firm call on how paleolithic man behaved. For instance, when anatomically modern humans arrived in Europe, there were already other hominids there. Today they are all gone, but there is genetic evidence that modern humans interbred with them. So did we kill them all to wipe them out? Did we breed with them and swamp them out by being more fit? No one knows for sure.

I guess this hypothesis also doesn't fit in with canon very well either. There isn't any indication in CT that Vargr economics is any different than human. They have the same merchant careers and their worlds have the same trade classifications. You would think a difference as major as they don't have or focus on private property they way humans do would have been mentioned.

Soap box time...

I have my own problems with canon Vargr. I have a suspicion that the conceit behind canon Vargr is this: what would happen if you had a society of teenagers that never grew up?

A lot of Vargr behavior doesn't seem to be inspired by wolves, but rather by teens: unreasonably (to an adult) concerned about peers and fitting in with their social group; lots of social hierarchy and cliques to navigate; impulsiveness; rejection of/rebellion from authority; fluidity of teen/pop culture with each generation... these are all equally well applied to Vargr and teenagers. GDW then exaggerates these traits and extrapolate what society would be like if these behaviors were permanent and not just part of adolescence. CT:AM3 may insist in earnest that Vargr "do not act human, and, when correctly played, they are unlikely to be mistaken for humans." Color me skeptical. They seem to be described as more or less as a society of Teen-wolf. (If they movie hadn't come out in 1985, I'd call that more evidence. Must have been something in the zeitgeist.)

Whether my conjecture is actually what was behind the Vargr design or not, for me, Vargr are not alien enough as presented, so I am digging around for more. I remember Mike once wrote (i'm paraphrasing) Vargr are werewolves in combat armor that will break your bones to suck out the marrow while you watch. That is the kind of nasty alien I'm thinking of, but I don't just want a horror-flick villain either. I want to flesh out some more non-human behaviors & psychology for them so I plumb wolf behavior for more inspiration.

 

[Madmax]

1) I am not aware of any scientist that suggests human evolution or society has been primarily or even significantly driven by revenge-seeking behavior.

2) The archeological record doesn't support the idea that a big part of early human behavior had to do with them taking "to actively hunting the beasts that dared to enter their territory and kill their kin." In fact, it is an item of debate today whether early man and society was primarily a product of being a hunter at all or rather it was cooperation that came from being prey.

1) I should have made clear that I was not claiming the idea was scientific. It is Science Fiction. The OTU is a Science Fiction universe after all.

2) I am actually claiming that society is a result of cooperation. Cooperation that developed in order to find and kill predators. (Ask any K'Kree.)

What drove me to it was the simple fact that, in a human society, when a leader is overthrown by violent means there is a very high risk of civil war, and all the horrors that can include. Meanwhile if a leader is violently overthrown in Vargr society, the tendency is for everyone, even the victim, to just shrug and continue with normal activities. Sometimes there is civil conflict as a result of such an overthrow, but that seems to be unusual. I came to the conclusion that because Vargr leaders are overthrown so frequently, if that led to Civil War as often as it would in Human society, the Vargr would (IMO) have killed themselves off long before they got off of Lair.
I could not find an adequate explanation for this difference between humans and Vargr in any material I had read about Vargr, so I made up my own reason.

You raise several interesting ideas that I will think about. Right now I don't think they are adequate to explain why the Vargr societies don't collapse the way human society might tend to without adequate stability, but they are well worth thinking about.

 

[Madmax]

Soap box time...

I have my own problems with canon Vargr. I have a suspicion that the conceit behind canon Vargr is this: what would happen if you had a society of teenagers that never grew up?
...
I want to flesh out some more non-human behaviors & psychology for them so I plumb wolf behavior for more inspiration.

Well, I never thought of that, but it does make a lot of sense.
If adult Vargr behave like teenagers, what do actual teen Vargr behave like?
I am totally with you on wanting to see better exposition of Vargr behavior & psychology.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

Another fun idea, but I'm not sure it works (at least for me) because it relies on dubious assumptions about both humans AND carnivores.

It is of course a simplification, but as such could work to build an acceptable model Vargr (and Aslan) psychologu*y

It is not all clear that paleolithic man wasn't in an immediate-return economy without food storage. What is clear from the archeological record is that those societies were sharing societies with labor divided by sex and large game were carried to a base camp for butchering. These are not behaviors that obviously give rise to modern concept of property.

I might indeed have chosen poorly when I said "property", as I was actually hesitating between "property" and "security". Property in the modern sense probably didn't become a conscious concern before the invention of agriculture and our ancestors realized they could hoard food and trade it. But security, and most of all food security, comes before that. We might be closer to the apes, but in many ways I see us as squirrels or ratpacks. We strive to build up foodpiles, while purely hunting animals basically don't - they hunt when they go hungry, and they waste huge amounts of meat, bones and entrails because why worry about that, there'll be other aurochs/mammoths/fish around next time their stomach starts growling too loud.

A behavior that could be a genesis of property is territoriality, and that is a behavior shared by many carnivores and that wolves have in spades.

I agree. Hunters dig territory, and the way I see it, we never looked like it the same way (before agriculture at least). Our focus is more, I think, on the product. I'd postulate hunters want opportunity (the territory not as a piece of real estate, but as a hunting ground) while we desire security (the territory's production, before agriculture, and the territory as the key to that production after the agricultural revolution).

I guess this hypothesis also doesn't fit in with canon very well either. There isn't any indication in CT that Vargr economics is any different than human. They have the same merchant careers and their worlds have the same trade classifications. You would think a difference as major as they don't have or focus on private property they way humans do would have been mentioned.

Yes and no, as my idea is inferred from Canon material. For example, Canon emphasizes the importance of local/tribal/personal issues with Vargr, and their propension toward violent raids/piracy (whether among themselves or against their non-Vargr neighbors). Canon also establish as a fact Vargr don't feel bound by formal treaties/rules, particularly if the authority is far away and/or impersonal. Finally, Canon tells ut Vargr get easily offended (or feel that way) and always react to that.

That would be consistent (IMHO) with a society where humans laws, and particularly the laws striving to ensure the safety of ALL life and ALL property are easily ignored when not backed by a personal bond. Who are these humans who are afraid of taking what they want from complete strangers because of "The Man" and yet can be so dishonest with their friends and spouses? Us Vargr at least have our priorities right: full honesty with those of our pack, the others can join at some point, but until then sorry guys, you're fair game, just as we are to you.

Also, I don't think my take would require the Vargr economy and society to be fundamentally different from the Imperium's - Vargr will crave and buy merchandise and services, but will in my model tire about it more quickly and move to different cravings. Varg business would "steal" each other's clients (and quite possibly merchandise and machines and ships and chew toys and....) like human internet providers on crack, but such conduct would be seen as keen entrepreneurship. That's the way to go when one is a true mensch - or dogsch - and want to move up in life. And if the wounded party struck back with a vendetta, good for them, that'd be highly commendable as well. That would not mean complete anarchy, surely there still would be some red lines that would not be crossed (often). For example, I'm pretty sure socialization process amongst Vargr would be 1) quite different from what it is in our human societies and 2) the real glue holding their polities together.

Would that even make their society all that different from ours? Whenever I read the news, I get supposedly law-abiding companies conducting corporate espionage, circumventing laws and security requirements, conmen, embezzlers, and all kinds of petty (and not-so-petty) revenge.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

If adult Vargr behave like teenagers, what do actual teen Vargr behave like?

Actually they might be less unruly than adult Vargr, as they'll mostly interact with their group.

 

[whulorigan]

I might indeed have chosen poorly when I said "property", as I was actually hesitating between "property" and "security". Property in the modern sense probably didn't become a conscious concern before the invention of agriculture and our ancestors realized they could hoard food and trade it. . . .

The concept of property as a function of the development of agriculture has less to do with hoarding and trading, and more to do with the fact that agriculture is labor-intensive for a group of people in a designated plot of land. The last thing anyone wants is to put all that labor into sowing (and later reaping) the field (and waiting in anticipation for the crops to grow), only for some hunter-gatherers or raiders to come and "reap" all of your hard work and leave you to starve. Most early agriculturalists were subsistence-farmers. That requires a defense of the agricultural-field, and the concept of "to whom does this field belong" based on who did the work of sowing the seed.

Surplus crops and trade came later, particularly after the building of the first rudimentary "cities" for mutual defense, and specialization of labor began to develop, necessitating that each profession-group produce the product that it was specialized for in abundance to provide to other groups in trade to acquire the things that they each needed in return (e.g. food & other supplies).

Hunter-gatherers also defend communal hunting/gathering territory as a whole from interlopers without necessarily allotting any particular "plots" of land to individual members of the tribe.