Jump Torpedos

[robject]

Since we now know that big ships can launch very large missiles -- essentially 100 ton ships -- it follows that jump torpedos might be canon after all, although Leviathan's jump torps are still out.

It's just a matter of creating a jump-capable 100 ton missile.

That also raises the strange possibility of a missile attack staged from (for instance) 1 parsec away.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Since we now know that big ships can launch very large missiles -- essentially 100 ton ships -- it follows that jump torpedos might be canon after all, although Leviathan's jump torps are still out.

It's just a matter of creating a jump-capable 100 ton missile.

That also raises the strange possibility of a missile attack staged from (for instance) 1 parsec away.

Do you want relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers? Because this is how you get relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers.

 

[robject]

Do you want relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers? Because this is how you get relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers.

Please start a new thread for that discussion; or thread-resurrect one of the existing ones that certainly must exist. This problem/argument existed before this thread. It needs to be resolved outside of this thread. It may be too late though...

Relativistic kinetic warfare in Traveller has been discussed online since 1989 at least.


....okay, FINE, you've got me taking the bait. First I lay out my givens, then draw a conclusion.


GIVEN

1. Acceleration drops to 1% past 1000D of the primary (e.g. Sol = 10 AU, Saturn's orbit).
2. It takes 35 days at 1G to achieve 0.1 C.
3. At 1G, it takes 12 days to run from 10 AU through the insystem and back out the other side to 10 AU.

THEN

You don't have enough time to build up unstoppably relativistic speeds.



I could be wrong, but I think at these speeds we're dealing with more traditional planet-killer deadfall, which is still a problem, but it's not relativistic.


I can always add a previously suggested assumption:

MCPERTH'S COROLLARY: Maneuver drives also lose efficiency as the ship gains momentum.

 

[Condottiere]

As always, jump torpedo viability is edition specific.

 

[Spinward Flow]

It's just a matter of creating a jump-capable 100 ton missile.

Do you want relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers? Because this is how you get relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers.

Point stands.
All you have to do is replace the biological crew with a "dumb" robot brain "crew" for a 1 way mission that will intentionally destroy the "unmanned" Scout/Courier.

If you delete the 4 staterooms and air/raft berth you have the original 3 tons of cargo space plus another 20 tons of displacement to fill with whatever ordnance suits your purpose (including just simple "lead weight" for a really long run acceleration into target with maximum mass aboard for the highest non-explosive kinetic impact energy).

The Scout/Courier is the cheapest hull for the job in the 100 ton range, and there are plenty of them available in surplus that are 40+ years old which could be converted as interstellar weaponry like this "on the cheap" ...

Point stands.

 

[inexorabletash]

Do you want relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers? Because this is how you get relativistic kinetic bombardment in the form of unmanned Scout/Couriers.

If you're starting a new TravellerSins channel, I would like to subscribe.

 

[bookwyrm]

:CoW:

I only started thinking of Jump Torps relatively recently (a few years) after reading some TNE 1248 material. plus, I have done some searching on the subject in this Forum, and just now took a look at what the Traveller Wiki had to say.

all in all, my personal take is that they wouldn't make good weapons (maybe as a last ditch effort for survival, or a greater strategic purpose), should be great for intelligence missions or sending messages, and anything else, I'll think about if it makes sense or not.

as the technology for making Jump Torp's has been around awhile in Traveller, depending on which Era your in, you wouldn't really need any old Scout Couriers. you could make them cheaper with a 100 dT cylindrical hull configuration, and if necessary, with a streamlined upgrade to hit targets beneath an atmosphere. with 20% standard discount, even cheaper. the only other costs to worry about are guidance systems, fuel, power, and the drives to get the torpedo where you want it to go, and whatever ordinance you put on it (metals, rocks, explosives, fill in the blank...). ECM & Evasive Maneuver for defense when targeted by weapons, to give the torpedo a better chance to finish it's mission. and you can use cheaper hull configurations if your targets are big enough, stationary, very thin atmosphere or less, and maybe surprised.

 

[willtron3030]

If you're starting a new TravellerSins channel, I would like to subscribe.

I simply don't have the time to post so many blasphemous House Rules.

ObTopic: I've maintained a house rule that even with the jump program and jump cassette, a biological mind must be controlling entry into jump space, Hence courier, not jump torpedo. And AI's won't suffice. [The Virus is not something I use. It's canon, but I'm not there yet.]

ObOffTopic: On a scratch pad, I figure around a star slightly larger than Sol, 5 light seconds diameter, you could accelerate at 6G to about 0.04c whilst within the 1000D boundary. I feel like that's not fast enough to justify throwing a hull at a target that way.

 

[whartung]

Point stands.
All you have to do is replace the biological crew with a "dumb" robot brain "crew" for a 1 way mission that will intentionally destroy the "unmanned" Scout/Courier.

Is there any canonical evidence, pre-virus, of robot guided ships, particularly through jump?

 

[Grav_Moped]

I simply don't have the time to post so many blasphemous House Rules.

ObTopic: I've maintained a house rule that even with the jump program and jump cassette, a biological mind must be controlling entry into jump space, Hence courier, not jump torpedo. And AI's won't suffice. [The Virus is not something I use. It's canon, but I'm not there yet.]

I like the idea, but I'd just add a cruel DM to the misjump roll instead of a flat requirement. (Jumpspace wants an appreciative audience and gets pissy otherwise.)

Agreed on Virus. Likewise The Wave. Heck, I'm not even sure I want to topple the Imperium on schedule!

ObOffTopic: On a scratch pad, I figure around a star slightly larger than Sol, 5 light seconds diameter, you could accelerate at 6G to about 0.04c whilst within the 1000D boundary. I feel like that's not fast enough to justify throwing a hull at a target that way.

If you can Jump, you can cycle back through the gravity well a couple of times to accumulate a significant vector before the final jump to the target. Consider a refueling tanker on the second pass and drop tanks on the third.

I just think they're not used because the retaliation ends up being in the form of Really Big Nukes in large quantities. From foes and friends alike. It just isn't done.

This is also why nobody uses lasers to blind their opponents. High-tech weapons have a lot of nasty implications that don't make for good storytelling.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Is there any canonical evidence, pre-virus, of robot guided ships, particularly through jump?

Grandfather's "Portal" Ship in Adventure 12 - Secret of the Ancients?

It does make a jump. Who is flying the ship? Saying "Oh well, Its Grandfather" is irrelevent. It means at some unfathomable Tech Level, the principles of how the OTU works allow for it.

 

[mike wightman]

Is there any canonical evidence, pre-virus, of robot guided ships, particularly through jump?

Yes.

Go to LBB8 robots, look at the robot encounters table.

One of them is with a ship's boat robot - as in it flies smallcraft
and right there at the bottom is a pilot robot, along with navigator robot and engineer robot.

I have a memory of a reference to robot controlled x boats but would need to dig that one out

DGP's 101 robots has a robot pilot.

 

[Condottiere]

Mongosian physics tend to heavily penalize purely robotic jump operations.

 

[McPerth]

Since we now know that big ships can launch very large missiles -- essentially 100 ton ships -- it follows that jump torpedos might be canon after all, although Leviathan's jump torps are still out.

It's just a matter of creating a jump-capable 100 ton missile.

That also raises the strange possibility of a missile attack staged from (for instance) 1 parsec away.

As this is not a versión realted thread, this could be used: Zhodani Drone Courrier (while designed as Zhodani, similar ships might be used by anyone as jump torpedoes).

MCPERTH'S COROLLARY: Maneuver drives also lose efficiency as the ship gains momentum.

??

Not that I disagree with this, but I don't remember having said that...

 

[mike wightman]

Mongosian physics tend to heavily penalize purely robotic jump operations.

Mongoose physics is best left to the cinematic cartoon universe where it belongs - the author of that little tidbit has yet again not done sufficient OTU research or they would know that there is no issue with using robots to fly ships.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Mongosian physics tend to heavily penalize purely robotic jump operations.

For no good reason(s) just to keep biological sophonts "relevant" in an interstellar setting.

I have a memory of a reference to robot controlled x boats

XBoat operations are one of those obviously prima facie applications where an unmanned robot controlled drone ship is clearly a superior use case scenario than needing to rely on living crew whose skills (at pushing buttons!) are really only needed for about 1 hour prior to jump ... and then while in jump they've got next to nothing to do (aside from read and entertain themselves, alone) ... and then after breakout from jump, their job is to "push the button" to transmit data followed by simply waiting around for pickup.

It's an operational model where the XBoat pilot basically needs to do all of about 2 hours of work every 8 days or so ... not a terribly efficient use of their time, skills and life support costs.

Of course, TL=10 (used by the XBoat Network) isn't exactly "prime" for machine learning capacity or efficiency, but it can certainly be done "in a box" using (per LBB8) a High Data fundamental logic program combined with a Basic Command fundamental command program. After that, it's just a matter of giving the robot brain "enough capacity" to run its programs (Pilot:1, Navigator: 1-4 and Communications: 1-4). Put everything into a box that lacks locomotion, has a voder, power interface, brain interface and program interface and you're basically done. I'm guessing that such a "robot" would be cheaper than a live crewman just on life support costs alone, never mind salary, in the context of XBoat operations.

 

[McPerth]

Mongosian physics tend to heavily penalize purely robotic jump operations.

IMHO my design above (despite using for a Starship the core computers of small crafts, but IIRC never says this is not allowed) denies this...

 

[robject]

Not that I disagree with this, but I don't remember having said that...

Based on a thought you had, that maneuver drives lose efficiency as velocity increases, in one of the other discussions on this forum about using near-C as WMD.

 

[robject]

Traveller in general prefers that characters have a lot of agency, Golden Era style SF.

But we also know that robots exist, are ubiquitous, take many forms, and some of them can survive a jump.

We tend to not give them full agency until higher TLs, at which point they also become.... characters. This is one solution to that problem.

 

[Condottiere]

Maybe if the robots overlay on a skinsuit, it will fool the universe.