The Zhodani Menace

[RossWinn]

In the Fifth Frontier War has always been portrayed as the heroic Imperium forces overcoming the aggression of the “barbarians at the gate” but what if that isn’t the case?

What if the imperium is truly the bad guys? What if the Zhodani are a peaceful and enlightening society? What if the Emperor is trying to deflect internal rebellion and give the Imperium a convenient enemy?

How would you slowly reveal this to your crew in your Traveller series?

 

[mike wightman]

This has always been the hidden truth, the early adventures show how cruel, corrupt and downright nasty the Imperium is. The Zhodani alien module, like all of the alien modules, is written from the point of view of the Imperium and so should be taken with a pinch of salt - unreliable narrator and Imperial propaganda

I recommend a thread over at the Mongoose forums that discusses the true nature of the Imperium

Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

Thoughts on the Dark Imperium. There have been some very interesting and thought-provoking discussions on the nature of the Imperium recently. This thread is about drawing conclusions from the ideas, opinions, and information presented and further thoughts on them. The final inspiration for...

forum.mongoosepublishing.com

 

[Dragoner]

I have always figured on the Zhodani vs 3I conflict being Ego vs Id, such as in the film "Forbidden Planet" (from Freud originally); where the Zho's are rational, ethical, crime free, and with proper mental hygiene. The Imperials in contrast are animalistic urges, and desires, corrupt (men not laws), and violently criminal. Zho's can't stand being around Imperials, as the Imperials simply broadcast vile obscenity constantly. There is no reconciliation possible between the two societies, and the Zho's have zero desire for conquest, their only objective is to keep the Imperium at bay, a "kill it with fire" attitude, Imperium as cancer. Zhodani military ineptitude is only matched by the Imperial core keeping the Spinward Marches militarily weak, in order to avoid another situation such as with Olav.

Olav - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

 

[Spinward Flow]

What if the imperium is truly the bad guys?

At the macro-economic level ... it's kind of undeniable that the "movers and shakers" of the Third Imperium territory ARE the Bad Guys™.
The problem is that at the personal/individual level ... citizens of the Third Imperium are NOT the Bad Guys™ (writ large).

Imperial Megacorporations are DEFINITELY "the parasite that devours the future" ... yet at the same time, if the Megacorporations "collapsed" into mass bankruptcy (and vulture capitalism) ... something very much like them would arise to take their place.

What if the Zhodani are a peaceful and enlightening society?

They are.
They practice "mental hygiene" in a way that is beneficial to all.

What if the Emperor is trying to deflect internal rebellion and give the Imperium a convenient enemy?

Stupidly unlikely.

has always been portrayed as the heroic Imperium forces overcoming the aggression of the “barbarians at the gate” but what if that isn’t the case?

Kind of hard to square that with the fact that after no border clashes for some time, the Imperium was attacked by 3 rival polities in cahoots with each other along the border AT THE SAME TIME.

Casting the Third Imperium as the "instigator" of the Fifth Frontier War is about as close as you can get to Victim Blaming.

How would you slowly reveal this to your crew in your Traveller series?

Depends on the "slant" you want to put on things, I guess.

The better play (I'm thinking) is to recognize and admit that the Third Imperium contains a LOT of people with a tremendous diversity of opinions AND viewpoints ... which is a roundabout way of saying it's NOT monolithic.

At the same time, the old truism that Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power corrupts ABSOLUTELY remains in effect ... and there are some PRETTY MAJOR "power centers" within the Third Imperium, who have been corrupted by the power that they hold and wield.

The big difference between the Third Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate can be summed up in a single word ... DYNASTY.

In the Third Imperium, it is both possible (and actively encouraged!) to build dynastic wealth and power. There is very much a sort of (jealous) "keep it in the club/family" tradition going on, which very directly leads to aristocracy (and all the ills the flow from it) and inherited wealth, position and status. Dynastic lineages are the "way to get ahead" (and stay there).

In the Zhodani Consulate, that is both difficult to do AND actively discouraged within the society. Any sort of "aristocratic lineage" is viewed as something temporary, rather than permanent. The society is a LOT more dynamic in terms of "social churn" because rights and privilege are NOT inherited (which is quite antithetical to the Imperial dynastic mode of thinking). Each generation of descendants has to "prove themselves" rather than resting on the laurels of their ancestors. So life is more of a meritocracy than an inherited aristocracy, which needless to say the dynasty of privilege loving Imperials would find quite intolerable as an organizing principle for a society.

In the Zhodani Consulate, you can have "dynasties of thought and belief" ... a continuity of minds and outlooks over generations ... but you aren't going to have a dynasty of family bloodlines all jealously hoarding wealth and power for themselves at the expense of everyone else.

 

[bookwyrm]

This has always been the hidden truth, the early adventures show how cruel, corrupt and downright nasty the Imperium is. The Zhodani alien module, like all of the alien modules, is written from the point of view of the Imperium and so should be taken with a pinch of salt - unreliable narrator and Imperial propaganda

I recommend a thread over at the Mongoose forums that discusses the true nature of the Imperium

Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

Thoughts on the Dark Imperium. There have been some very interesting and thought-provoking discussions on the nature of the Imperium recently. This thread is about drawing conclusions from the ideas, opinions, and information presented and further thoughts on them. The final inspiration for...

forum.mongoosepublishing.com

At some point, I decided that the System/UWP Random Generation Procedure is a serious mess that needs to be fixed in a big way (CT & T20 for me), but after reading a few pages of the Link you shared (bookmarked for more reading later) I find that the System/UWP Random Generation Procedure makes total sense and is very logical (in the light of the Dark Nature of the Imperium). Thanks for sharing.

Also in that light, it seems that all of the other major interstellar governments have a Darkness in them, and to be honest, I can't help but feel that this Darkness is what makes Traveller (OTU, MTU, YTU) such an interesting game to play in. (of course, each government considers the other governments to be 'Dark' in comparison to themselves). I also see that the exact nature of the greyness/darkness of the Imperium, or anywhere else, is up to the GM, but I can't help but see the Darkness between the lines in just about all of the Traveller products I've read or that have been shared in many of the Threads/Post in the CotI and a few other places that are interested in Traveller.

I've always had a problem with incorporating the bigger picture at the character level, but I feel like this Link has helped me a lot with background & bigger picture views.

@Spinward Flow the is for the meme while the rest of the post is .

 

[RossWinn]

Stupidly unlikely.

Thanks for your openness to discussion. Your attitude doesn't require me to be similarly insulting and you are welcome to your opinions.
In case you missed it, my core assumption was that what we "know" as canon might not be the whole story, or even true.

Kind of hard to square that with the fact that after no border clashes for some time, the Imperium was attacked by 3 rival polities in cahoots with each other along the border AT THE SAME TIME.

True, if this wasn't a direct reaction to something that wasn't known to the general public. What if that attack was a reaction to Imperial Fleet actions on the frontier? A botched assassination attempt? Other economic warfare? Any one of a number of possibilities exist, if you are open to the idea.

 

[Vargr Breath]

In the Fifth Frontier War has always been portrayed as the heroic Imperium forces overcoming the aggression of the “barbarians at the gate” but what if that isn’t the case?

What if the imperium is truly the bad guys? What if the Zhodani are a peaceful and enlightening society? What if the Emperor is trying to deflect internal rebellion and give the Imperium a convenient enemy?

How would you slowly reveal this to your crew in your Traveller series?

We agree.
The Solomani Confederation

 

[whulorigan]

The society is a LOT more dynamic in terms of "social churn" because rights and privilege are NOT inherited (which is quite antithetical to the Imperial dynastic mode of thinking). Each generation of descendants has to "prove themselves" rather than resting on the laurels of their ancestors. So life is more of a meritocracy than an inherited aristocracy, which needless to say the dynasty of privilege loving Imperials would find quite intolerable as an organizing principle for a society.

In the Zhodani Consulate, you can have "dynasties of thought and belief" ... a continuity of minds and outlooks over generations ... but you aren't going to have a dynasty of family bloodlines all jealously hoarding wealth and power for themselves at the expense of everyone else.

Well, almost.

Getting into the Intendancy is meritocratic based on Psionic Ability. And doing well in your Position of Intendancy (merit) can elevated you into levels of the Nobility. But the descendants of Intendants (or Nobles at least) who have little or no Psionic Ability are not "sent down" to the Proles; they remain Nobles (just with little or no Psionic Ability). They may be removed from an Office or Position of Service, but not from their Social-level Position, which is still inherited (though Psionic Ability is not - at least pre-Traveller⁵).

 

[Spinward Flow]

True, if this wasn't a direct reaction to something that wasn't known to the general public. What if that attack was a reaction to Imperial Fleet actions on the frontier? A botched assassination attempt? Other economic warfare? Any one of a number of possibilities exist, if you are open to the idea.

At that point, you're on a "fishing expedition" for a conspiracy theory ... and the only fish you're going to find are going to be "off the reservation" (so to speak).

The basic flaw in that line of argument(s) is ... where is the EVIDENCE for any of those possibilities?

In case you missed it, my core assumption was that what we "know" as canon might not be the whole story, or even true.

Even allowing for the Unreliable Narrator phenomenon, the notion that the Imperial Emperor (Strephon at the time of the Fifth Frontier War) "needed" an external enemy (in this case, in the Spinward Marches) to deflect attention away from a rebellion somewhere else simply doesn't pass the laugh test.

Let's say ... just for the sake of argument and illustration purposes ... that "things are not going well along the Solomani Rim" of the Third Imperium (the Solomani Rim War was 990-1002, so "it's about time for another flare up"). So in order to distract the citizens/wag the dog ... Stephon "arranges" for there to be a Fifth Frontier War in the Spinward Marches.

That could work on a planetary scale, with near instant communication networks.
It flat out doesn't work once you factor in the Tyranny of Distance between the Spinward Marches sector and Core sector.

I mean, there's a reason why the Fourth Frontier War stared and ended before any messages could be sent TO the Emperor and any decisions/orders from the Emperor could make it back to the front lines before an armistice was reached. So there's already been a "test case" proof of how actively the Emperor can intervene in the region of the Spinward Marches in response to unfolding events, and the answer is "NOT FAST" (enough) to shape events.

What if the Emperor is trying to deflect internal rebellion and give the Imperium a convenient enemy?

There IS an opportunity for the Emperor's authority to be MISUSED (and abused!) by an unscrupulous individual, in the context of the Fifth Frontier War. But in such a circumstance, the blame/responsibility should not be laid at the Emperor's feet.

I'm talking about an Imperial Warrant ... which first appeared in LBB A1 The Kinunir ... and which actually became an important point in the FFW game published by GDW.

If such an Imperial Warrant were to fall into unintended hands ... there could be extremely far reaching consequences. That individual could "speak for the Emperor" (and thus wield the Emperor's powers and authority) without being ACTUALLY loyal to the Emperor (or the Third Imperium). Such an Imperial Warrant would act as a "trump card" which (in the wrong hands) could be misused and abused.

However, that kind of scenario is more of a "loose nukes" type of situation, rather than some kind of perfectly orchestrated puppet master scheme with the Emperor pulling all the strings (directly). At best, the Emperor would have to be playing a Xanatos Gambit for anything like that to be plausible (and even then, Xanatos Roulette is the more likely trope) ... which is just "stupidly unlikely" given what we know about Emperor Strephon (which is to say, NOT MUCH, but he didn't see his own assassination coming, soooo ... ).

 

[punkrabbitt]

I always felt like all of the central Major Race governments were Bad Guys, with enlightened individuals being the resistance all around. Zhos are human, with all the baggage that comes with being so. They may have a stable society that is more enlightened than the Third Imperium, but there i still going to be top-down problems affecting the population and the neighbours.

 

[Krikkitone]

I always felt like all of the central Major Race governments were Bad Guys, with enlightened individuals being the resistance all around. Zhos are human, with all the baggage that comes with being so. They may have a stable society that is more enlightened than the Third Imperium, but there i still going to be top-down problems affecting the population and the neighbours.

I think the lore is specifically put together to be very flexible... all the major Polities have people in them controlling large reasonably stable societies.... which means the devil is in the details.

All of them Could be interpreted as pretty harsh dystopias

Easiest read for most is they are muddled societies which hurt their members about as much as they help

The Zhodani and the Hivers are the only ones written so as to potentially be utopias... of course those are also the ones with the most inherent manipulation so it is easy to see them as potentially very dystopic as well. (a dynasty of thought sounds like 1984's Ingsoc Party)

I generally prefer thinking about all as societies that get a lot of stuff right, but all have some things deeply wrong with them that causes some major problems. (and with the Consulate more stuff is right, but the stuff that is wrong goes much deeper)

 

[mike wightman]

Vargr - it is never the massed grand armada fleet of Vargr vengeance that takes part in the Frontier Wars. Going by The Traveller Adventure there are several vargr bands that have reason to not get on with the Imperium. Remember that the Vargr also provide an admiral to the Imperial side...

Sword Worlds - constantly threatened by Imperial expansion and Darrian conflict.

Zhodani - don't want the Imperium right on the border.

Do Imperial megacorporations respect Imperial boundaries? No.

Does the IN Intelligence branch kidnap psionic aliens from beyond Imperial borders? Yes.

Does the Imperium have a visceral hatred of all things psionic due to a botched psychohistory experiment? Yes.

Do politicians make stuff up to justify their actions - <sarcasm> no of course not, they are above reproach </sarcasm>

 

[Rupert]

I have always figured on the Zhodani vs 3I conflict being Ego vs Id, such as in the film "Forbidden Planet" (from Freud originally); where the Zho's are rational, ethical, crime free, and with proper mental hygiene. The Imperials in contrast are animalistic urges, and desires, corrupt (men not laws), and violently criminal. Zho's can't stand being around Imperials, as the Imperials simply broadcast vile obscenity constantly. There is no reconciliation possible between the two societies, and the Zho's have zero desire for conquest, their only objective is to keep the Imperium at bay, a "kill it with fire" attitude, Imperium as cancer. Zhodani military ineptitude is only matched by the Imperial core keeping the Spinward Marches militarily weak, in order to avoid another situation such as with Olav.

Historically the Imperium is also militarily 'inept'. The Imperium is not very good at war, and wins via mass and technological superiority.

 

[Condottiere]

And, presumably, better kit.

 

[Dragoner]

Historically the Imperium is also militarily 'inept'. The Imperium is not very good at war, and wins via mass and technological superiority.

It is often said that war is won by who makes the least mistakes.

 

[Murph]

I agree that most of the governments are like any other, they have needs, desires, people who put the good of the bureaucracy ahead of the good of the people, the rebels, the statists, the idealists, the useful idiots, and then there is the 3rd Imperium which like all empires hits the limits of its expansion, and then starts stagnating. IMTU there are few "White Hats", some, but not many, most are "grey hats" at best, with some really bad "black hats". Good people can do bad things, and Bad people can do good things, and Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice.

 

[mike wightman]

Why isn't every Imperial university science and engineering graduate educated to TL15?

Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?

Why does the Imperium not insist on universal sophont rights?

Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

 

[Murph]

Why isn't every Imperial university science and engineering graduate educated to TL15?

Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?

Why does the Imperium not insist on universal sophont rights?

Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

I completely agree here.

 

[Rupert]

Why isn't every Imperial university science and engineering graduate educated to TL15?

Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?

Why does the Imperium not insist on universal sophont rights?

Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

Because the 3I is immensely conservative. It tells itself that it's not, because it's not technologically stagnant like the First was, and because it's not culturally conformist like the Zho's. But, really, the Imperial culture is stagnant, and while a few worlds progress in technology slowly, most do not. Because it's not to the advantage of the Powers That Be for there to be change, and so any change is glacial.

 

[Murph]

I did not see the 3I as the "good guys" for very long, just as I did not see the Solomani as resurgent Nazi's who intend to commit Genocide or Apartheid across the known universe. I always did have an issue with the Powerful Vargr that have invaded and captured so much of the Imperium BAAA BOOM! But I agree that the 3I has issues, just look at the X-boat routes vs the J-6 courier routes. Larsen Whipsnade addressed that so perfectly in his write up.