Spinward Flow
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Citation (definition of)
The Zhodani Menace
- Thread starter RossWinn
- Start date
That's an interesting point... Have you any canon source of the existence of this department?
I mean, the text you posted about the Children of the Marches ship tells about the sector/subsector governments subsidizing education (at least, I guess thy also subsidize other matters), but is there specifically a deparment for education?
See that with the so varied cultures, and even races, with distinct histories, phisiologies, psycologies and education methods (just to cite an obvious one, the Droyne, even when Imperial citizens, teach by psionics), can such a deparment really exist?
(Started a thread about this, to avoid this one to derivate even further)
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
They are all from the CT Library Data supplements, the citations post was a necessary follow on post from the previous post where I mentioned many times that Library Data was the source.
By Library Data I assume people know to look in the two CT Library data supplements.
Here is another nail in the coffin of worlds free to do as they please: same Lirary data books -
"Given a population of 783 billion in the Marches (under direct Imperial rule)"
I thought the Imperium didn't rule directly... what is obvious is occasionally the narrator's mask slips and the truth comes out.
The Imperium grants...
The Imperium allows...
The Imperium demands...
under direct Imperil rule
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yes.
Yes, it is mentioned by name as the department for Education at the subsector and sector level i.e. Imperial tier.
Again, can you give me the source, please?
Good line. "Awarded"
"Congratulations, Spica, you're a Red Zone" *pops champagne cork*
Sure, the Imperium says they are autonomous, until they aren't. Until they become "strategically important" or "economically unstable" or some flavor of disruptive. If they were autonomous they wouldn't have Nobles appointed like viceroys. I am completely convinced that the Imperium only intercedes when it's necessary.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
They are only as autonomous as the Imperium grants, authorises, allows, when the mask slips they actually say the Imperium directly rules all the worlds.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Interstellar policy is a matter for the Imperial Bureaucracy to manage.
Domestic policy within star systems is a local matter controlled by local governments.
Who's spreading propaganda now?
Yes ... but ... most of those examples have to do with either domestic policies bent on self-destruction (nuclear war between rival factions) that can lay waste to planets and populations ... or are examples where megacorporations have "run amok" under their remits on planets, resulting in unsustainable resource extraction at the expense of planetary environment health (basically strip mining the place and leaving the spoil waste lying around to rot for someone else to clean up). Another example would be when a particular world/star system becomes a haven for pirates or other criminal elements that threaten freedom of navigation (and commerce) in the surrounding region.
When you've got over 10,000 star systems to choose from ... there are going to be examples of "Waste, Fraud and Abuse" in the systems and policy apparatus no matter what you do. The difference is whether those situations are the NORM and only to be expected ... or are they the exceptions that prove the rule (where greed outpaced wisdom)?
You say "control of trade" ... where anyone else can see "obvious competitive advantage" ... and attribute nefarious motives to the practice.
Even in the far future, laws of supply & demand along with competitive advantages "still work" at interstellar scales.
Does it?
I think you are (desperately) overstating your case.
INFLUENCE over world affairs, I will grant ... because it is impossible to have a trade relationship with foreign entities without a measure of influence being granted (in both directions, but the measure of influence can certainly be unequal, depending on the relationship).
CONTROL is something that is flatly wrong.
Not to drag something that belongs in The Pit into this discussion, but that's akin to saying that because Canada has a trading relationship with the US, ipso facto the US "controls" Canada. We have a real world example of how that is NOT THE CASE unfolding right now on the world stage.
Again, not to drag The Pit into this discussion ... but are you asserting that there is some kind of Imperial "Common Core" curriculum that MUST be taught to every child in every school in the Third Imperium? That this "Common Core" is IMPOSED, top down, onto EVERY world and citizen throughout the Third Imperium?
Which kind of cuts against the notion that the Third Imperium "controls" worlds (via interstellar trade channels?) if even the "improvements" the Third Imperium MIGHT want to make "never happen" as you assert.
LOOK at the UWP Government codes.
LBB3.81, p11:
By my count (and feel free to check my math on this one) ... there are only TWO government types in that listing that yield "popular elections" for rule over world governments.
An argument can be made that Code: 7 can also yield "popular elections" of leadership, but only for a subset of the world's population (because multiple governing factions rather than a single unified world government).
- Code: 2
- Code: 4
And just for reference, Government Code: 2 is only possible (typically) up to Population: 7.
Government Code: 4 is only possible (typically) up to Population: 9.
So if you're wondering WHY the star systems in the Rhylanor subsector "don't elect their subsector government" ... the simplest answer is because elected governing (of any variety) is a vast minority of government types for the worlds in the Rhylanor subsector.
A quick look at LBB S3, p30 shows that only THREE of the 32 star systems in the Rhylanor subsector have Government Code: 4 ... and only ONE of those 32 star systems has Government Code: 2.
EVERY other star system in the Rhylanor subsector has a non-elected form of (world) government.
- Garrincski (B632520-7)
- Henoz (A545543-B)
- Belizo (B895646-5)
- Somem (C301340-B)
Now explain for the class why 4 Non-industrial worlds with "modest" populations should get to dictate the "rules of subsector government" to the 131.1 BILLION people inhabiting the other 28 star systems within the subsector.
Even for someone who zealously believes in egalitarian democracy, 4 out of 32 star systems is a super-minority constituency for the proposition that subsector governing authorities should be determined by popular election of representation.
Something something ... vulnerable to the whims of demogoguery ... popularity contests aren't the best way to select for expertise in governing ... blah blah blah ... you know the drill.
So if I "grant" that you might have said something that is correct, does that mean that I now control you?
I'm detecting a flaw in your logic here.
I would say there are more types of government than just 2 and 4 that have "popular" or general elections:
Type 1, Company or corporate depends on how this entity is set up. It could be a cooperative where every employee is a shareholder and gets some say in who the company's management, etc., is. It could have a worker's union that votes on leadership and important matters, as but two examples of a company or corporation having government by popular vote or general election at least to some extent.
Type 8 and 9 governments where there is a bureaucracy. These almost certainly have a facade of having popular or general elections that vote in political leaders that are the "face" of government. These voted in political leaders don't wield the day-to-day power that runs the government but instead only set its general tone and direction. The general population--eg., like the players--wouldn't normally deal with the politicians. The politicians only deal with the elite of society or other societies like higher nobles, the rich and powerful, the connected, etc. For normal people, like most players, they are dealing with bureaucrats that actually run things.
Thus, these government types have some other system layered on top of them that puts political and national / planetary leadership in place be it through popular elections, inherited power, or whatever. The bureaucracy is just the day-to-day face of government you deal with.
The various oligarchies and dictatorships also could have popular elections. For example, there is a ruling "dictator" who is a noble with an inner circle of other nobles that they rule with. They allow popular / general elections for something like a parliament that advises and gives consent to the ruler. This would be particularly true with a type A Charismatic Dictator type government. It gives the public and people a facade of having say in government and it might be seriously taken by the leadership.
An example would be a "king" ruling some planet that has an assembly of elected representatives of the people that he consults. He doesn't have to necessarily follow their advice, and he might be vetting who can run for election, but there would still be at least the veneer of a popular election system in place.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Combination of advisors, bureaucrats, and interest groups.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I agree with that. Imperial worlds either toe the line or they get thumped on hard for not doing so. Every world in the 3I is expected to pay both fealty to the emperor and pay their share of VAT to the empire. If they didn't it wouldn't be much of empire now, would it? There is also some mechanism(s) in place to ensure that happens on time.
I include an "Emperor's Day" in MTU where nobility is obliged--mandatorily obliged--to cough up a sizable chunk of change in one form or another to pay tribute to the emperor and show their fealty and loyalty. Whether they do this out of their personal fortune or wring it out of the commoners they lord over, is their business but the emperor and crown will get their pound of flesh either way or powerful people will come looking for you to find out why you didn't pay up. If you're a noble, you are expected to do this semi-publicly or publicly in front of other nobles and the loot / swag gets passed up the chain to the emperor. (Sure, there's plenty of graft and fraud along the way, just don't get caught with your hand in the cash register.)
Hey, those are mine.
Well, you are the Grand Duke . . . Perhaps an Imperial audit is in order (and do remember who gave you the idea afterwards, Your Grace . . .
)amsboethius
SOC-4
Well, the Zhos are essentially Plato's Republic enforced with invasive psionics, so the Imperials don't have to go far to paint their society as existentially horrific.
Stupidly unlikely.
Not really, the Psionic Suppressions are pretty much a canonical example of an Imperial black op ginning up anti-Zho hysteria for politicial reasons going horribly awry. However, precisely because of that, it's unlikely Strephon would want to start something that drastic without knowing the outcome.
The first two Frontier wars also saw the Imperial Civil War started and ended and the 3rd forced the current Emperor Styryx
to abdicate due to perceived incompetence, so there's quite an incentive to leave the Zhoscum alone.
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amsboethius
SOC-4
All this tohubohu about how much the Imperials control individual planets answers at least one of the posited questions, "Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?"
Watsonian answer: It is in the Imperium's interest to not look too intrusive in dealing with the internal affairs of its member planets. (unless it feels it HAS to). That, coupled with the historical examples of what happened to planetary populations that relied too heavily on high tech interstellar trade when that spigot got turned off (cf. The Darrian Maghiz and the Second Imperium's collapse into the Long Night), indicated the need for planetary economic autarky.
Doylist answer: It makes for interesting worlds to adventure on. Bringing them all up to the same standard would result in a cleaned-up, homogenized-sludge setting like the founding worlds of the UFP in a certain "trekkish" setting. (which is why THEIR adventures typically happen at the frontier or on outright alien worlds)
Watsonian answer: It is in the Imperium's interest to not look too intrusive in dealing with the internal affairs of its member planets. (unless it feels it HAS to). That, coupled with the historical examples of what happened to planetary populations that relied too heavily on high tech interstellar trade when that spigot got turned off (cf. The Darrian Maghiz and the Second Imperium's collapse into the Long Night), indicated the need for planetary economic autarky.
Doylist answer: It makes for interesting worlds to adventure on. Bringing them all up to the same standard would result in a cleaned-up, homogenized-sludge setting like the founding worlds of the UFP in a certain "trekkish" setting. (which is why THEIR adventures typically happen at the frontier or on outright alien worlds)
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Divide and rule.
Trade is free.
Taxation is not.
Trade is free.
Taxation is not.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Murchison/Trin's Veil/Spinward Marches
Psionic Suppressions (secret)
"What cannot be controlled (by us), must be destroyed."
- Ignorant Fools throughout the history of humaniti
This is why we can't have Nice Things™.
I especially like the insinuation of the phrasing "became convinced" ... rather than a more definitive phrasing of "found evidence" in the above quote. In other words, it's perfectly possible that the "high Imperial figures" involved fooled themselves into thinking something that wasn't actually the case and then overreacted based on their assumptions.
It wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened in history ... nor would it be the last.
When you drink the kool aid of your own group think, you can convince yourself of almost anything.
King Midas
SOC-9
"WOW" as in "Whoa! I never even considered that idea before!"
IMTU, I try as much as possible to ignore psionics. The whole witch hunt (literally?) just irritated me. I still don't intend to use it, much. But the suppressions make so much more sense now.
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