10 questions to ask Joe Fugate

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
Excuse me, but how do you prove something that you say happens over millions of years? The best we can surely do is state that it is a theory ... and that we haven't been convinced that it has been disproved yet. Then in a million or two years we can look back and state categorically whether it was proven. [/QB]

We know that traits are inherited - we see that all around us and we know that from genetic studies. We know that we have fossil remains whose ages have been determined from reliable and well-correlated stratigraphy and radiometric dating (which doubtless people will now claim to be suspect). And we know those fossils (and living creatures) change with time. We know that creatures adapt to their environment. We breed dogs and horses to direct their evolution.

We've got the several-billion year old history of life on Earth to prove that evolution is real. It isn't a matter of opinion or belief, it's supported by all the physical evidence. If you choose not to believe that, then that's very much your decision, but it doesn't make it go away and it certainly doesn't make you right.

 

[jfugatesr]

Moving on to the next question ...

27. The not Traveller related but I would like to know how close AI ever came to publication and if it will ever see print?
====================================================
Roger Sanger now owns the rights to AI, and unless he makes a radical departure from his former ways, I don't expect AI will ever see print.

The game was 1/3 to 1/2 done. Rough character generation rules existed, as did task rules, equipment rules, and a fair amount of background narrative. One folio adventure existed and was being sent to playtesters.

But I wouldn't hold my breath. Even if Roger does get around to publishing AI, I doubt it will be the game I designed.

 

[Malenfant]

With historical events, you cannot prove beyond all doubt that they did or did not in fact happen.

Poppycock.

If it leaves physical evidence, of course you can prove that it happened. If it didn't, then you can't.

You may have more difficulty proving why it happened, but that doesn't change the fact that it did.

Now, if you're going to argue that evolution is just a matter of opinion, despite the vast mountain of fossil and genetic evidence in its favour, and how it can explain everything we see so far then you're going to have to propose an alternative that does all that AND also explain your supposed anomalies. And currently the alternatives are severely lacking in rational credibility. "Creationism" in particular is the most loathesome bastardisation of pseudoscience that there is, IMO - take a complete lack of understanding of basic scientific principles and methods, warp and manipulate the data to get something that supports a specific worldview (and conveniently omit the data that which contradicts it), and then pat yourself on the back for "proving" that science is wrong while gullible, ignorant people lap it up. That disgusts and sickens me.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by JoeFugate:
But history shows that "revolutions" in science are fought tooth and nail by the "establishment". It doesn't matter how right the revolutoin may eventually prove to be, it is vehemently resisted, and the originators of the new theory are maligned, called crazy, disbarred, etc. And many in the establishment fear for their reputations with their peers *more* than they want to consider the alternative that might, just might be closer to the truth.

That's just human nature, and all our modern scientific advancement hasn't changed that.

Yes!

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
That disgusts and sickens me.

Malenfant, I respect that this is a 'hot button' subject for you .... but Joe never intended to get sidetracked into this sort of debate. He was simply pointing out where his inspiration came from for a possible new game idea. People will disagree with you, but I suggest you take it into another thread so this one can remain on topic.

 

[jfugatesr]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />With historical events, you cannot prove beyond all doubt that they did or did not in fact happen.

Poppycock.

If it leaves physical evidence, of course you can prove that it happened. If it didn't, then you can't.
</font>[/QUOTE]You are right, I mis-spoke. What I meant to say is:

"With a historical event, you cannot prove beyond all doubt *how* it happened."

If science could remove all doubt then we wouldn't need a jury or a judge in a court case. Court cases attempt to determine the truth of a historical event because they are by definition unique events and not within the power of science to prove as fact because they are not repeatable.

Repeated observation is a cornerstone of science and is how scientific fact is determined.

 

[jfugatesr]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
That disgusts and sickens me.

Malenfant, I respect that this is a 'hot button' subject for you .... but Joe never intended to get sidetracked into this sort of debate. He was simply pointing out where his inspiration came from for a possible new game idea. People will disagree with you, but I suggest you take it into another thread so this one can remain on topic. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, well put.

I actually agree with most of Malenfant's points, but I have been taking the contrary view to drive out his assumptions.

We used to do that to each other at Digest Group all the time. At first, it can make you really angry, especially later when you realize that you've been had!

But I enjoy this sort of dialog as long as everyone shakes hands and remains friends at the end of the day. I think this sort of interchange leads to the best ideas and is one of the "secrets" to how DGP was able to produce products that were as good as they are.

I do this to my wife too, and she used to get really angry with me when I would do it because I generally agreed with her, but I wanted to also consider the alternatives so our conclusion would be a rational, well-reasoned one, not just purely emotional.

But now days, she's wise to me, and she even does it to me now and then! I just look at her, say touche' and grin.

And we both know exactly what we have done to each other.

 

[Pompe]

First of all, I think Joe's background idea is an excellent story/setting idea. I don't "believe" in it for a split second to be the truth for this universe, but I don't believe in magic or dog-people either. I think the Bible Code is a great story idea too, but I certainly don't believe in it. No problem.

Second:

Evolution is a scientific theory, which is something else than "theory" as many people use it in daily conversation.

Evolution is not just some untestable thought experiment Darwin dreamed up and most serious biologists the last century suddenly decided to like without a shred of supporting evidence.

There are arguments within the theory of evolution, but those do not invalidate the overall picture, and there has been no substantial competing theory worthy, as an example the supporting scientific evidence for creationism is exceedingly much weaker - I'd even say it is absent - compared to darwinism.

Evolution is a process (or rather, a collection of different processes, and these sub-processes can be both directly testable and observable), it takes place right now, and this can be shown. You can choose not to believe in the evidence, or believe it shows something else. That is well within your right. It is not a complete theory in the manner that we know all about it and there are no questions left to resolve, but virtually no scientific theories are complete.

Not believing in the theory of evolution is like not believing in the theory of gravity. Or in plate tectonics. Or in radioactivity. No one forces you to believe in plate tectonics - indeed, there are people who don't - but the supporting evidence is strong enough to make it a scientific theory. And that's all we really can do. The fact is that these alternate often oddball ideas very often are so lousily proofed they can't stand a serious investigation and peer review, unlike say what Darwinism has done for many, many decades.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Gaah!

I'd love to participate in this (especially in regards to that link to the million-year old human jawbone website . . . a simple search provided sites that said something quite different about that jaw), but it is 100% off-topic.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by JoeFugate:
I actually agree with most of Malenfant's points, but I have been taking the contrary view to drive out his assumptions.

We used to do that to each other at Digest Group all the time. At first, it can make you really angry, especially later when you realize that you've been had!

But I enjoy this sort of dialog as long as everyone shakes hands and remains friends at the end of the day.

Well, that's all well and good, but remember that on the internet people are not aware of your debating tactics. It's generally not a good idea to approach discussions this way with people you don't know (especially people like me, who tend to get rather pissed off by that sort of strategy ). It's one thing to play devil's advocate in a discussion, it's another to do it just to get a strong reaction from people - these things tend to backfire somewhat. As it is I am mildly peeved, but I won't hold anything against you, Joe .

Pseudoscience is a "hot button" topic for me because it is basically a direct threat to my livelihood and to science itself, and because it serves no purpose other than to mislead and spread ignorance (and yes, Creationism makes me really mad). There is no "agree to disagree" or "tolerate other viewpoints" here - it is simply flat out wrong (at least to the point of lacking any credible evidence and being largely based on leaps of faith and assumption) and I will vigourously and aggressively attack pseudoscience wherever it is raised. There's no "defending the scientific dogma" involved, it's very much a case of battling the spread of ignorance to that part of the public that is gullible and doesn't know better, that already seems to think the scientific community is some nefarious bunch of schemers that do nothing but plot to hide "the truth" from them.

Be that as it may, I understood Joe's point about these things making for wacky RPG backgrounds perfectly well - what I didn't like was what appeared to be his support of pseudoscience ideas over science. But whatever - it's off topic, let's just get back to letting him answer questions.

 

[jfugatesr]

Since we're trying to answer for people to some degree what made DGP tick, the whole debate around pseudo-science is a live example of how DGP worked.

And let me make another point that I think will be helpful to any other gaming "think tanks" out there to see how this dynamic is best handled.

There was a fascinating study done in the 1960s by McGraw-Hill to test how this worked in groups.

They set up 6 teams and told each team they were going to give them some tough problems to solve, and each team would be judged to determine who came up with the superior solution.

Then on three of the teams, they secretly pulled one person aside and told them to be the devil's advocate, to disagree with solutions proposed, etc. Niether their team mates or the judges knew this had been done.

Many problems were given, the teams came up with their solutions, and the results judged. In *every case* the judges picked one of the three teams with a secret devil's advocate.

So it was announced a second round of problems were to be given, and each team was to decide who their least valuable member was, and to eject them.

You guessed it -- the teams with the devil's advocates each ejected that member!

So what's the moral of the story here?

1. People do not like conflict, and seek to avoid it wherever possible.

2. The devil's advocate was actually those team's competitive advantage. They ended up destroying their team's strength by getting rid of this member.

3. A devil's advocate needs to communicate to the team their loyalty to the team, and that they actually want the same thing everyone else does. If that's not true, then they are just what they seem to be: a royal pain, and destructive to the group.

I told this story often to the DGP staff, and so we "went for it" in our discussions, giving everyone their chance to air their views, no matter how absurd or "off-the-wall".

And I personally believe in life this is true as well. If you disdain or get angry at those who diametrically oppose your view without ever examining it with an open mind, you are losing a golden opportunity to bolster and strengthen your own views.

If at all possible, it's best to let the other side be heard, and don't let emotions get the best of you. Deal with it rationally and consider the evidence as if you were pitching the idea and see if it holds water.

You might be surprised at what you find.

 

[Gruffty]

Joe, with regards to the DGP books that contained sector maps (I'm thinking specifically here of Solomani and Aslan), do you (by chance) remember where DGP obtained the system locations from? I ask purely out of interest and appreciate it was a long time ago.

 

[jfugatesr]

World locations came from Atlas of the Imperuim. We got the actual files from GDW and then input them into a special program we wrote that would generate the UWP details for each hex with a system in it.

The Atlas of the Imperium had the location, gas giant, and some basics about the world (asteroid belt, etc.) but most of the UWP was missing.

Our program filled in the details and produced a text file, minus the world name. Then we went through and named all the worlds, and then ran the file into our sector drawing program.

The result was a sector map with world names, minus any borders or jump routes. We just added the borders and jump routes, then ran the map out to the typesetter at 1200 DPI.

In some cases (like the Vargr extents), there were no world position maps. We just generated the UWPs, and then ran them into another program we had that drew sector dot maps using the world postion to know where to draw the dot.

Because I felt you could go overboard in detailing every inch of the official Traveller universe leaving ref's no wiggle room for their own imagination, we destroyed most of those UWP source files, because beyond the world location, we wanted to leave it up to you to flesh things out.

 

[Gruffty]

Thanks Joe!

 

[Gruffty]

Thanks Joe!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Is it time for the next quesetion yet, or is the initial list run out now?

 

[jfugatesr]

Yes, next question. Just a few left after this ...

28. What happened to allow someone whose name (Roger Sanger) I've never seen on a DGP product to gain control of the rights to all of that crunchy goodness? <yes we're sad there'll be no reprints in the near future>
(Clarification: I'm certainly not looking for anyone to trash talk anyone with this question - I'm genuinely curious as to how the IP rights ended up out of the hands of the people who had done such fine work and into the hands of someone who - so far as I can tell - had little to do with the creation of said IP. )

29. Did Roger actually make all his IP payments to you?

a) And Did they clears the bank?
==================================================

Ah, Roger Sanger.

Gary and I started DGP as equal partners, and then as it became apparent the company wasn't going to make anyone rich years later, I bought out Gary's half at 200% of his initial investment.

So by the time Roger showed up, I was sole owner of DGP. I did consult with Gary for his advice, but the decision to sell or not sell DGP was totally mine at that point.

So how'd it happen?

I closed DGP's doors in 1993, since the gaming business was getting soft, computer games and the internet was on the rise, and I was just plain getting burnt out. I was making lots of money as a computer consultant and had all the work I wanted.

Meanwhile, my kids were in their teen years and not seeing much of dad (yes, there were some serious problems because of this) and my wife was growing less patient with the fact she never saw me because I was always working on the latest "deadline".

AI was underway, but with the gaming business posssibly going down for who-knows-how-long, I wasn't sure it would ever recover.

And I saw a disturbing trend in science-fiction gaming ... more of a trend to gritty, violent game settings, and the worst of all -- a marrying of science fiction with the horror genre.

I'm a space opera guy, preferring more the star-spanning adventure, seeing new places, making discoveries, and enjoying interactions with aliens and strange cultures.

So anyhow, I decided it was time to "get a life" again so I shut down DGP.

Now I had a basement full of product (TD19, 20, 21, MTJ3, 4) since the print runs had been pretty sizeable on those products but the downturn in the gaming market meant we couldn't sell them.

And I had a few half-done projects, both for some Traveller titles (Onnesium Quest, Zhodani & Droyne, mostly) and the partially complete AI game.

I figured one of these days I'd have to make a dump run with all the unsold Traveller stuff.

So a year went by, and I didn't touch Traveller or even look at it. I found out how nice it was to be a normal human again, and I liked it very much.

Discussions with my wife and kids revealed how terrible things had been with me "not available" and I grew to very much dislike what I had been. I also realized I was absolutely burned out on Traveller and gaming.

So then in late 1994, this Traveller fan shows up on my door step wanting to buy some DGP products.

When I showed him my basement, he about wet his pants. He wanted to know if he could buy several boxes of product, and he emptied out his pockets, handing me several hundred dollars.

Figuring all this stuff was unsellable, I told him I didn't think he would be able to sell it all, but he insisted. So I took his money. It was pennies on the dollar, but it was way more than I was making from the stash. I kept a few boxes of product just in case I would ever find a market for them.

He asked what the deal was with DGP and I told him. Then he asked the unthinkable, would I sell the DGP name to him?

I told him that would not be cheap and that we would have to draw up a legal contract. This started visits and discussions with Roger that took about 9 months to complete.

I also spoke with Marc about selling DGP and Marc, Roger, and I had several phone conversations about the Traveller line, licensing Roger to do Traveller, etc.

I was so tired of gaming that I sold Roger everything, just to get it out of my house. I even sold him most of my Traveller collection. I was so disgusted with myself at what I had done to my family that I really never wanted to repeat that mistake again.

Roger paid me with a check, and yes it cleared the bank. At the time his job consisted of reposessing real estate. I was impressed that someone with the gall to reposess real estate just might have the moxy to parley DGP back into existance again and carry on.

At any rate it was unlikely I would have any more suitors at my door wanting to buy DGP.

I'm still mildly interested in Traveller more out of curiosity about where the game has gone these days, than anything else. But I'm really not interested in playing or writing for the game any more. I trully burned myself out on the game, and my interests have moved elsewhere.

Ever since my college days, I have been interested in simulation. My fascination with role playing games is how they simulate another time and place. So I immersed myself into Traveller with DGP to get the best possible idea of how to properly simulate the Traveller universe.

Since then, I have returned to my first love, HO scale trains. Now I simulate in 3D with actual models. You can see more about my model trains on the web link below my signature. We're talking serious stuff here ... computer chips in them and the works.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Well, despite the bad things that happened to your personal life as a result of pursuing gaming publication, I'm happy that you're willing to talk to us lo these many years later.

 

[Zparkz]

I have been lurking on this thread almost since it started and I would like to express my gratitude for the effort you put into your material Joe.

Traveller Digest is probably the main reason for making me a Traveller addict. It wasn't making the situation better when there was more or less impossible to get the magazine here in Norway. Most of the time i ordered the magazines directly.

And thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

 

[jfugatesr]

Glad to be on here and to answer your questions.

Although those times were difficult for my family, my kids are all grown now and being in the real world trying to make ends meet has made them more understanding about that time.

And they are amazed and fascinated with what DGP accomplished, and they have fond memories of the group ... Gary, the Parkers, Rob and Deb.

So time has tempered things quite a bit and we all now can look back at what was accomplished and have some pride in it.

And with the internet, it's possible to discuss and share some of this history in a way that was more or less impossible 10 years ago.

So it's about time for some of this to be told, and for it to be shown that while it was tough at times, there was a happy ending!

My daughter, for example was actually helping ship out the orders for TD & MTJs over the last couple of weeks, and was reading some of the autographs and getting a big kick out of them.

And I also, am proud of what we accomplished. There aren't many people who can say that they have over a million words in print and that some of it has been translated into German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Japanese!

All thanks to Marc Miller and this wonderful game called Traveller.