2 Quickies (hopefully)

[DuneFox]

hi all back to Classic Traveller after a 25+ year hiatus….

I have two quick questions for you - hopefully simple…

1) Is there anywhere that has good copies of the forms in .pdf? I have the Classic Traveller disc and the forms for sectors and planets and character sheets et al - come out really light and not very legible. If there is another place to get them it would be great!!!

2) In space combat I never understood the vector combat - I just used to have little chits of paper and basically if you had 1G you could go 10 cm and 2G - 2 cm ect in any direction. I know that is wrong.
Is there a simple way to do the Vector thingy or what do you all do?

Thanks in advance - sorry writing on the train…

Todd

 

[flykiller]

simple, yes. but it gets huge and takes up a lot of space. I tried to develop a system using bmp bits, it keeps the size down and accommodates just about anything, it's in the vector movement thread I resurrected just now. the graphics are gone, only the text descriptions remain, if you're really interested and want the graphics I could find a way to get them up again ....

 

[whartung]

simple, yes. but it gets huge and takes up a lot of space. I tried to develop a system using bmp bits, it keeps the size down and accommodates just about anything, it's in the vector movement thread I resurrected just now. the graphics are gone, only the text descriptions remain, if you're really interested and want the graphics I could find a way to get them up again ....

The range band rules from the other games work well here (like TNE, I think others do it as well), especially for 2 ship problems (since, in fact, it is just a range issue). Based on maneuver, range is either increased, decreased, or maintained. There's not other plotting necessary.

 

[mike wightman]

If you take a look at the Starter Edition rules on the cd you will find my favourite ship combat system for role playing groups to use - the range band system.

I have house ruled stuff for different crew members to do during a turn of space combat so everyone feels involved.

 

[kilemall]

Im doing full vector old school plotting, pretty easy stuff in the same vein as naval minis, because it DOES matter what angle a course is shaping or how it interacts with a gravity field.

I'm also doing roll pitch and target profile DMs, so there is plenty of Ship Tactics going on just moving the ship, bringing weapons to bear and deciding on evasion vs. speed.

 

[kilemall]

As for the books, FFE both has them AND references aftermarket publishers where you can get PDFs.

http://www.farfuture.net

I got my copy by perusing eBay and Amazon, and if you are patient you can usually score one reasonably priced.

 

[ian54]

Is there a simple way to do the Vector thingy or what do you all do?

Mayday?

 

[whartung]

Just to come back to this, and barring the whole space issue, the vector system is quite simple.

Each ship has a direction and a velocity.

To move a ship, take the ships velocity, let's say that the ship has a velocity of 10, and that equates to 10 inches.

So, measure 10" directly in front of the ship. If the ship is to move with no other input, that's the final destination.

To maneuver, take the total of your maneuver capability, say 2Gs. The premise is that 1G of acceleration equates to 1 more velocity, or 1 inch.

So, grab a 2 inch (2G) piece of string, and position it on the future position of the ship. The string shows you a radius of where the you can adjust the future position of the ship.

So, if you measure 2" directly in front of the ship, you accelerated 2Gs and your new velocity is 12. If you measure 2" directly behind the ship, you Decelerated 2Gs and your new velocity is now 8.

If you move anywhere else, then you're "turning" the ship. Once you have your new position, you measure the distance between the original position and new position, and get your new velocity. The ships new direction is in line with the new vector.

And that's it.

There are details in different systems about how much you can maneuver and other things, like ship facing etc., but that's the basics. You can try it out on a piece of paper, and see how a ship turns. See how a fast ship has a larger turning radius than a slow ship, how easy it is to overshoot things, etc.

 

[robject]

Using thread or string really is the best way to handle vector movement: it's accurate, cheap, and easy to adjust.

Plus, you need the floor of a living room, of course.

 

[jawillroy]

I've always loved the IDEA of using Book 2 vector combat. But it's always run up against questions of

1) space
1a) space on the floor not interfered with by domestic housecats and wives
2) exactly how do missiles move
2a) negotiating the contradictory cans of worms helpfully provided by SS3 and Mayday to "solve" same
3) in some respects most importantly, the awkward discrepancy of a starship, crewed by a far-future veteran ace pilot and crack navigator, having its vectors being plotted by 20th-21st century non-pilots and non-navigators. Players and referree both making dumb mistakes that their characters would simply never make.

These tend to send me running to the abstract arms of High Guard, or even free-form combat.

 

[kilemall]

I don't bother with full mini movement, just plotting on graph paper or free form open paper with something like 1G/10000km = 1mm. Most fights will be less then 2 LS, so two sheets at most.

A ship going .01C, 300G, would 'just' be going 30cm or about a foot, and will likely flash through your combat area very quickly. 30cm/1 foot is also a light second, for a quick visualization/reference.

A typical US card table is 34", put detecting ships at opposite corners and that works out to a 48" diagonal or 12.2 million km, PLENTY of room for maneuver before you even trip a 2 LS detection.

If needing that much room, at least counters with a pin through them for the official 'position' should do. A good technique for minis as well.

So, no need to tie up the family room or garage floor, just size down.

 

[aramis]

I've always loved the IDEA of using Book 2 vector combat. But it's always run up against questions of

1) space
1a) space on the floor not interfered with by domestic housecats and wives
2) exactly how do missiles move
2a) negotiating the contradictory cans of worms helpfully provided by SS3 and Mayday to "solve" same
3) in some respects most importantly, the awkward discrepancy of a starship, crewed by a far-future veteran ace pilot and crack navigator, having its vectors being plotted by 20th-21st century non-pilots and non-navigators. Players and referree both making dumb mistakes that their characters would simply never make.

These tend to send me running to the abstract arms of High Guard, or even free-form combat.

a great half-implementation of Bk2 movement is to use Mayday's movement system. Less space, grid based, and reasonably fast to resolve.

 

[Patron Zero]

When I've tackled large scale distances such as space combat in Traveller or ground-pounding sword-wielders in other RPGs, I've found using 'maps' of different scales to be helpful.

Very often I would use a large-sized blank sheet of hex paper of specific sized hexes for combat-movement representing 'tactical' distances, which would work for ship-to-ship combat.

Laying a sheet of clear plastic film over the paper to allow for use of grease pencils or dry-erase markers, then the addition of simple board game tokens to represent ships and other physical bodies in the playing field.

Please allow me to share a great free online resource to create PDFs of graph and hex paper in sizes, color and scales one can customize as needed.

http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/

http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/plain/

 

[Enoff]

At one time I had begun building an interface to handle space combat using Mayday and bk2 but then when I really got into missiles I couldn't figure out exactly how they were suppose to work so I gave up on the project. Maybe someone has clarified how they work and how the different components interact?

 

[jawillroy]

but then when I really got into missiles I couldn't figure out exactly how they were suppose to work so I gave up on the project. Maybe someone has clarified how they work and how the different components interact?

That can of worms remains wormy. Aramis, but for this and the following, I do like using Mayday with B2.

My other can of worms - which HG cheerfully ignores, to my joy - is "what is a reasonable expectation for relative velocity between two ships encountering each other at various points in a system?"

It might be argued that a low relative velocity is necessary for an encounter to happen at all.

 

[Enoff]

That can of worms remains wormy. Aramis, but for this and the following, I do like using Mayday with B2.

My other can of worms - which HG cheerfully ignores, to my joy - is "what is a reasonable expectation for relative velocity between two ships encountering each other at various points in a system?"

It might be argued that a low relative velocity is necessary for an encounter to happen at all.

Yes! which leads me to say that perhaps the best spaceship combat might be a role played cinematic one, instead of a board game.

 

[aramis]

That can of worms remains wormy. Aramis, but for this and the following, I do like using Mayday with B2.

My other can of worms - which HG cheerfully ignores, to my joy - is "what is a reasonable expectation for relative velocity between two ships encountering each other at various points in a system?"

It might be argued that a low relative velocity is necessary for an encounter to happen at all.

For the encounter to last more than one or two volleys, yes, absolutely, a relatively low difference of vectors is essential.

As for missiles...
per the letter of the rule, you have to get the missile to end in the same hex as the target. So, you maneuver your missile's future position marker towards the ship's future position marker, not it's current.

Realisitically, if they cross at the same proportion of their movement, they should intercept as well, but that's mathy.

 

[kilemall]

At one time I had begun building an interface to handle space combat using Mayday and bk2 but then when I really got into missiles I couldn't figure out exactly how they were suppose to work so I gave up on the project. Maybe someone has clarified how they work and how the different components interact?

The Missile Supplement that was published in JTAS 21 as Supplement 3, along with some lengthy errata corrections, goes into it into high detail, which along with Supplement Four's lovely sensor rules makes for a lot of detail work.

That combo is largely what inspired me to get into the sandcaster extras in the Fleet forum.

You can get JTAS 21 here

http://www.farfuture.net/hardcopy.html
http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...Society-Issue-No-21?term=journal+traveller+21

Errata here, which fixes issues, page 33
http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/ConsolidatedCTErrata.pdf

Missiles in SS3 only have to come near the ships and they home in, unless defeated by ECM or anti missile fire or sand if they are going fast enough.

I see a need to add in a few more components, as I am looking to merge CT/HG into one system and missiles need to penetrate armor, operate their own decoys, attack in cooperative swarms, etc.

Even though I will likely work out a detailed interaction, I expect most players would be happy with ECM and various flare/chaff/jammer canisters to be lumped under a generic countermeasures throw, so for most people that should be enough.

 

[nobby-w]

hi all back to Classic Traveller after a 25+ year hiatus….

...
2) In space combat I never understood the vector combat - I just used to have little chits of paper and basically if you had 1G you could go 10 cm and 2G - 2 cm ect in any direction. I know that is wrong.
Is there a simple way to do the Vector thingy or what do you all do?
...

I did movement in starship combat by adapting the movement system from Mayday - 1 hex: 10,000km, which can be approximated by 1 hex of Delta-V = 1G for 1 turn. All you need is a big hex paper sheet which can, I presume, still be obtained from somewhere.

 

[whartung]

Realisitically, if they cross at the same proportion of their movement, they should intercept as well, but that's mathy.

BL handled this by letting missiles move last, and if the missile crossed paths with the target, you "went back" and used an impulse movement (based on the velocities of the vehicles) to discern the closest approach distance. The missiles exploded at that point.

Fiddly, but not mathy.