2300 Space Combat Scale- oops?

[McPerth]

My proposal only changes the hex sizes, not the weapon ranges or sensor values. The x-ray lasers have a range of one hex - 33,400 km. Two hexes at -2.

Those changes modify the ranges in absoulte numbers, even if keeping them in game terms. I see them changing the setting (e.g. the same orbital defense installation now no longer defend both Earth and Moon at once, needing to defend both separately. Same for Sentinels defending a Jovian planet).

I guess operational actions would also be changed, due to the change in sensor absolute ranges, but I had to ponder it for a while before being sure about the implications.

 

[shaunhilburn]

Those changes modify the ranges in absoulte numbers, even if keeping them in game terms. I see them changing the setting (e.g. the same orbital defense installation now no longer defend both Earth and Moon at once, needing to defend both separately. Same for Sentinelsdefending a Jovian planet).

Hence my preference for ignoring/dismissing the 0.645 movement rate. Trying to reconcile it just makes a mess of things.

 

[McPerth]

For example, 2300 assumes soft X-ray lasers as the main turret weapon. With smaller hexes their range extends to 20 hexes plus and SC needs a rewrite.

If to preserve weapons ranges you bin the X-Rays to UV/Vis lasers then the main starship weapons are operating in the atmospheric windows, and ground batteries become a reality. If we could have them then subterranean fortifications with hundreds of dispersed starship scale lasers are *the* way to go.

That's a good example of the setting changes this would mean.

As rules are, starship lasers cannot fire into atmosphere, and (IMHO, I know of no example in 2300 canon) such batteries you talk about are only posible in atmosphereless worlds (e.g. one such fortifications could be mounted in the Moon to defend Earth, as rules stand), but never on a garden planet.

If those changes mean lasers can go through atmospheres, then those batteries could be mounted in Earth, but OTOH Earth could not be defended from the Moon, as the lasers would have no range.

 

[aramis]

Changing hex size has some nasty knock-on effects.

For example, 2300 assumes soft X-ray lasers as the main turret weapon. With smaller hexes their range extends to 20 hexes plus and SC needs a rewrite.

GDW Space ranges have always been Way Too Long... Beyond non-Gravitic focusing Limits due to diffraction at source. Getting a laser to focus meaningfully at 0.11 LSrequires huge mirrors... Several meters... and huge amounts of power,

 

[rgrove0172]

Let the unlearned chyme in here and recap

The combat spatial scale as is, coupled with the listed speeds of the ships, dont mesh with the performance of those vessels out of combat. The move two fast.

We could slow the turn down, allowing the ships more time to cross the same distances, but that would involve distorting personal actions during combat a great deal, otherwise that would work pretty well.

We could reduce the scale of the hexes, keep the turn the same and the ships now move correctly, but we nerf the ranges of weapons and sensors unless we increase them to match.

We could cut the speed of all ships, but in doing so reduce most to very slow per hex moves (which dulls the tactical element) and could reduce some to partial hex moves per turn.

Or we could just ignore the discrepency and attribute their boost in performance to "Battle Speed" or some such.

Does that about sum it up choice wise?

 

[aramis]

Missed One: keeping sensor detect ranges, but not id/lock ranges nor weapons ranges, leaving the tactical play Very Close,but fixing both Weapon range & speed.

 

[rgrove0172]

Missed One: keeping sensor detect ranges, but not id/lock ranges nor weapons ranges, leaving the tactical play Very Close,but fixing both Weapon range & speed.

Not sure I follow you. Are you referring to the change in hex scale, then increase sensor ranges but not weapons ranges to match?

 

[aramis]

Not sure I follow you. Are you referring to the change in hex scale, then increase sensor ranges but not weapons ranges to match?

Change the hex scale and time scale down, do not change weapon ranges, do not change weapon lock ranges.

See, the weapon ranges are stupidly long as is - in real world terms - but the ranges in hexes/tabletop-inches are a really good range for tactical play.

The detect ranges in real units are good - anything smaller is unrealistic given the sensor kits installed.

The ID range can be changes with little issue so long as it is no less than the lock range; IFF should allow ID at comm range, so a blip should be a foreign ship.

 

[McPerth]

I won't discuss if the weapon ranges are too long, but changing them will probably change the setting, so IMHO it must be quite pondered before taking such decisions, or we risk having a totally unbelievable history/setting.

 

[rgrove0172]

Im not expert on the setting, but have done quite a bit of reading and I havent come across any critical events or circumstances that are dependent on starship weapons range. Still, if its a concern, whats your solution again? To increase the turn length? Assume that the process of establishing a firing solution on targets take a bit longer and that weapons fire is more prolonged?

I dont have a problem with that either to be honest, it makes a certain sense I suppose. I was just under the assumption that most players seemed to feel that compared to the rest of the technology, lasers firing 100s of thousands of kilometers was a bit of a reach and this was a nice way to address that concern as well.

 

[McPerth]

My solution?

Just leave it as is, ignoring the tactical/strategical speed discrepances (either by explaining them as bursts of combat speed or outright ignoring the fact) and enjoy the game. After all, thiose discrepances won't alter the setting nor the game in any way.

And don't forget the same difficulty that 2300 setting imposes on the players to own (or operate) a ship makes starship combat quite rare in 2300, unless the campaign is precisely about naval matters (as LW/TBM), so I guess it will affect very few the RPG campaign.

 

[rgrove0172]

Cant argue with that. My main player character runs a frieghter out of King on the American Arm but it isnt even armed. In our version of 2300's setting the Kafer War hasnt happened yet, theyve just been encountered out there on the French Arm and are still kind of a mystery. Sure, the various nations and colonies squabble but open warfare between costly spacecraft is pretty rare.

If I did want to implement the 'increased time in a turn" solution, it was 8 minutes, wasnt it? I could do the math but that was the period in which the movement rates of the various ships coincided with their .645 efficiency wasnt it?

 

[rgrove0172]

Since Ive decided to stick with MgT2300, I assume they fixed the scale problem when they converted to the 3 minute turns and light-second range bands?

 

[rgrove0172]

The Anjou is rated at Suttewarp EF 1.84 x .645 = 1.18 AU/day
Thats 150million km x 1.18 or 270million km/day devided by 24 = 11,250,000km/hr or devided by 20 for 562,500km every 3 minutes.

The Anjoe has a tactical movement of 3, so it can cross 3 light seconds or about 900,000km during a 3 minute turn.

Someone check my math if you dont mind but it looks like they ships are moving a bit fast in MgT2300 too.

Looks like if you increased the turn to about 5 minutes you wouldnt be far off.

 

[McPerth]

Since Ive decided to stick with MgT2300, I assume they fixed the scale problem when they converted to the 3 minute turns and light-second range bands?

If you join to this the suggestion made by various posters in another thread about lowering the personal scale turn to 10 seconds, see that you'll have 18 personal combat rounds per space combat turn, instead of the 2 with 30" and 1' turns respectivelly given in 2300.

That would mean any boarding action will probably be resolves in 1-2 space turn.

Not saying this is good or bad, just giving you an example of the implications such changes might mean.

 

[rgrove0172]

Wow, we keep getting our wires crossed. Im talking about MgT2300 here, personal combat rounds are 6 seconds.