2d6 roll high vs. Xd6 roll low vs. other

[robject]

In T5 every point counts ... but to address the switch in importance from skills to stats you have two skills per task (skill + knowledge) and the TIH rule. This shakes things up a bit and makes it much more interesting. ...

What I dislike about the Xd6 approach is that it distorts the shape of the probability curve the more dice you have. So I could see a house rule of replacing all but 2d6 of a roll with a fixed 3.5 per die. But that seems a little clumsy.

Three things. I dislike the inelegance of TIH, I generally don't approve of the proliferation of skill levels, and 4 or more dice is increasingly not a curve.

Now, there's nothing wrong with an essentially linear probability -- as long as the rules take this into account, but I think it may be possible to forget it.

TIH shows that Traveller was designed for low skill levels, and not intended for characteristics to figure so prominently.

On the other side, I dislike having to divide characteristics for the mod, and I dislike the severe lack of granularity of two dice.

It's a Kobayashi Maru for me.

 

[KDLadage]

2d6 seems to be the favorite in this amazingly non-scientific poll.

If 2d6 is the way to go (and assuming that 2d6 is the way it works) what would be the preferred method of using ability scores?

Variable Modifiers: If ability score X is at least Y, then add +Z.

Fixed Modifiers: An ability score of 7 is no modifier; each +/-X adjusts this modifier up or down by +/-1.

Something else: My ideal modifiers for a 2d6 roll are as follows....

 

[mike wightman]

If I think the task warrants a DM for a high characteristic then I award a +1 if the PC has a stat equal to or higher than the number I make up.

They can get a +1 for roleplaying the event well.

They usually get a skill DM (not always they may only have lvl 0 or be using a skill that has no penalty for untrained).

They can get +1 if they have a specialist 'tool for the job'

 

[creativehum]

Here's how I'm thinking of handling it, as I mull the CT rules

I'm trying, as much as possible, to extrapolate from the rules already built in to Books 1-3 when tweaking the rules. (I find the free-wheeling spirit for Throw resolution introduces in later adventures and in The Traveller Book to be a little too freewheeling. I re-read Shadows the other day and found the Throws to be so scattered in the logic that after a while they just seemed arbitrary.)

To that end, I'd use the STRENGTH and DEXTERITY modifiers for weapons found in Book 1. Eyeballing the tables, the bonus kick in at a characteristic of 8 and are awarded up to 11 or 12.

I don't want anything too complicated. (I'm drawn, to, for example, Mike simple binary of Throw 8+ for basic at-risk situations and 12+ for tricky at-risk situations. (I say at risk, because I can't imagine rolling if there isn't some sort of conflict with another character or something on the line where failure will be interesting.)

In the spirit of keeping it simple, then, it would go like this:

1) The Player notes that he thinks his Characteristic would apply in the given situation.
2) If the Characteristic is 9-10 he gets a +1DM on the roll. If it is 11+ it is a +2DM.
3) If a pertinent Characteristic is 4-, then there is a -1DM applied.
[These bonuses and penalties do not apply to situations using weapons or combat. The rules already in place handle those.]

Note that this encourages Players with PCs on the breakpoints, if they think it's worth it, to use the Experience rules to bump up their Character's Characteristic using the Experience rules.

There is one other rule I'd be thinking about using, when Characters are in conflict with each other:

1) If one character has a pertinent Characteristic value 2x the value of the opposition's pertinent Characteristic value, the character gets a +1.

So, if someone is bossing a manservant around while trying to get into a private home, and he has a Social Standing value of twice the manservant, there's a +1DM for the role.

That's how I would use Characteristics. They are never assumed to apply, they have to be justified in how they apply, and they apply a slight bonus or penalty when above average or distinctly below average.

EDITED to follow up on Mike's post:

I, too, would award +1DMs as Mike awards them:
+1DM for roleplaying the event well.
+1DM if they have a specialist 'tool for the job'

I would also provide DMs based on Skill. Usually 1 per level, other times a DM multiplier for highly specialized skills, to allow a guy trained in Vacc Suit or Engineering to shine in a difficult situation. As a Ref I would talk this through with the Player(s) -- really getting a feel for how difficult the situation is and how getting a solid description of how the skill is helping. If it makes sense that the skill multiplier should apply, it applies.

As much as possible, for Traveller, I want the Players really touching and manipulating the world to describe how they're going to do things or solve problems in interesting ways. And I want to reward them for doing so.

 

[robject]

We play somewhat fast and loose.

Regardless of my misgivings, I find that multiple dice tends to be a faster mechanic, even with TIH. Also, there seems to be a visceral sympathy with my players when "more dice = more difficult". There's something about five dice being rolled against your characteristic + skill...

And, if the roll is higher than your abilities, the house wins.

DMs, regardless of system, slow down play. I try to avoid them.

 

[aramis]

We play somewhat fast and loose.

Regardless of my misgivings, I find that multiple dice tends to be a faster mechanic, even with TIH. Also, there seems to be a visceral sympathy with my players when "more dice = more difficult". There's something about five dice being rolled against your characteristic + skill...

And, if the roll is higher than your abilities, the house wins.

DMs, regardless of system, slow down play. I try to avoid them.

I've had a total 15 players state that they hated T4's task mechanics. None of them like roll low (which is why most of them quit playing GURPS), and they all disliked the need to worry about how many to roll.

T5 has as many or more modifiers being added than does MT... it's just they're modifications to the target number rather than the die roll.

 

[robject]

I've had a total 15 players state that they hated T4's task mechanics. None of them like roll low (which is why most of them quit playing GURPS), and they all disliked the need to worry about how many to roll.

You can make that 16. I also hated T4's task mechanics. Although, I was never a player, just a referee.

 

[rancke]

I use a D20, roll low, open ended in both direction mechanic (with a D12 for damage rolls) and it works like a charm. None of my players have ever expressed disssatisfaction with it.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

None of them like roll low

I guess Squad Leader (Incluiding ASL) are not too popular among them, then :devil:...

 

[aramis]

I guess Squad Leader (Incluiding ASL) are not too popular among them, then :devil:...

Nope. Not a one of us...
@robject: the differences between t4 and t5 tasks are trivial.

 

[creativehum]

Ok the short version coming up.

The longer version I should take to a new thread.

8+ to hit at effective range (use CT tables to decide what effective range is)
12+ to hit at long range or if you fire a snapshot while moving.

usual - DMs for target movement, environmental conditions etc.
+ DM from skill, advantageous Dex etc.

Weapon damage dice - just use CT damage

Roll damage dice.

Remove one die for each point of armour (remove lowest to highest) until there is only one damage die remaining. Any left over armour points are then subtracted from this die.

Armour values for armour can be taken from AHL, Striker, MT, T4, MgT - they are all pretty similar.

Complications.

HEAP rounds, gauss weapons and lasers halve the AV

Mike, I wanted to follow up on this post. I'm getting bumped on something. In both AHL and Striker, Cloth Armor has a value of (6). That means, if I'm understanding you correctly, it blocks up to six dice of damage. Which means most weapons will never do any damage to anyone wearing cloth armor. Only laser carbine and laser rifle would penetrate because of the halved AV... hitting with 1HD and 2HD respectively. And that's Cloth armor. Heavier army would block pretty much everything.

Is this the way you meant the system to work? Or am I missing something? Or did a detail get dropped?

Thanks!

 

[robject]

@robject: the differences between t4 and t5 tasks are trivial.

I think this turns out not to be the case. Though they are related, one is relevant, while the other never was. That is the difference.

T4 had half dice: not trivial, in my opinion. And remember, for the first year of its useful life there was the quite broken imbalance where low skill was not punished... Which pretty much killed the game for us. TIH (or, back then, IHTIT or whatever) was thought up too late.

But just as important, I think follow-through is everything. And T4 had no concept of benchmarks -- and for that matter, no rules beyond plain old tasks -- that leveraged the power of the task system. It was like an afterthought.

Unless I'm forgetting something, T4's task system was an orphan mechanic, tacked on to a blend of CT and TNE.

 

[aramis]

I think this turns out not to be the case. Though they are related, one is relevant, while the other never was. That is the difference.

T4 had half dice: not trivial, in my opinion. And remember, for the first year of its useful life there was the quite broken imbalance where low skill was not punished... Which pretty much killed the game for us. TIH (or, back then, IHTIT or whatever) was thought up too late.

But just as important, I think follow-through is everything. And T4 had no concept of benchmarks -- and for that matter, no rules beyond plain old tasks -- that leveraged the power of the task system. It was like an afterthought.

Unless I'm forgetting something, T4's task system was an orphan mechanic, tacked on to a blend of CT and TNE.

T4 taskswas just as tightly integrated to combat as is t5... sufficiently so as to be a problem adapting to use anything else in place of it.

t4.1 tasks also ditched the half die. The benchmarks are, pretty much, irrelevant... And TIH was present in t4.1. It does nothing to improve speed of play, flexibility of task process, speed of resolution, nor the ability of any players I have met to like the task system.
T5 doesn't change enough to be analyzed differently. The only t5 changes to improve the task system are external to it... the skill/knowledge distinction.

With the DGP/MT task system, players do not need to wait for the task definition to roll. The Ref need not reveal the difficulty at all, and the resolution is the same for the player with or without the difficulty disclosed. Open ended rolls ("roll and tell me how high you hit") and comparisons against multiple difficulties (especially apropos for sensors and stealth) are much easier.

 

[mike wightman]

Mike, I wanted to follow up on this post. I'm getting bumped on something. In both AHL and Striker, Cloth Armor has a value of (6). That means, if I'm understanding you correctly, it blocks up to six dice of damage. Which means most weapons will never do any damage to anyone wearing cloth armor. Only laser carbine and laser rifle would penetrate because of the halved AV... hitting with 1HD and 2HD respectively. And that's Cloth armor. Heavier army would block pretty much everything.

Is this the way you meant the system to work? Or am I missing something? Or did a detail get dropped?

Thanks!

You remove one damage die (from lowest roll to highest) until only one die remains per point of armour. You then remove any remaining AV points from the remaining die value
Example - Bod shoots Slod with a rifle for 3d damage, Slod is wearing cloth armour (AV 6).
Bod rolls 2, 3, 5.
Slod removes the 2 and the 3, but still has 4 points of unused AV. So 4 is subtracted from the remaining die (5) to give one point of damage.

Unhappy with this Bod switches to his ACR firing AP rounds... Slod's cloth armour is now only worth 3AV.

 

[creativehum]

Got it!
Thanks!