3d Printing for Parts and Repairs

[Meteoric Assault]

I am day dreaming for the application of a 3d type printer for repairs parts and components manufactured (printed on board a ship)

Conceptual limitations... CPU usage, software with schematics.. raw/refined materials to be used in fabrication... I can see this being an essential and sought after item by the self sufficiency types...

what does the COTI members consider the current Tech level of 3d Printer present day and would people share opinions of how this technology would evolve through Tech level 9-12?

 

[whulorigan]

Mike Wightman had an interesting post a while back for the T5 Makers:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=457800&postcount=3

My group came up with a way to use the makers which stunned me, and at a stroke made it much more of a cutting edge sci-fi game.

They asked where the makers are on the ship - thinking that they are some sort of nano-fabrication 3d printer sort of thing.

So I printed out gun maker and said here is your basic body pistol from the rules (T4), now go and use the maker to modify it. On board your ship you have a TL12 maker that can modify the pistol in any way you can come up with.

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm, I like the term Makers much better then Printers. Perhaps we can get a terminology change meme going.

This would be the functional high tech equivalent of a machine shop on major warships, which typically has heavy industrial equipment.

I would tend to make it a percentage installation on board ship, of either total ship tonnage or the drives it supports. The bigger the drives the bigger the shop must be to repair parts.

Ship's weapons may get a separate armory, where weapon parts are made/repaired, and missile maintenance and customization occurs.

I would be leery of full-bore makers that can rebuild a starship. One could limit them by saying that makers that can fit on ships can only build 'get you to the nearest starport' quality parts and impose chances for breakdown, or that by law custom and survival interstellar governments, corps and/or navies do not build fully capable shops lest they fall into the hands of opposing forces.

I have a McGuffin planned from several months back where the pirates are after a cargo ship shipping maker-like facilities being shipped to a colony. The anti-pirate people are going to be VERY unhappy if it falls into corsair hands.

As to capabilities, I would tend to go with something like

* shipboard versions can only repair/create spare parts for the TL and two below the maker is at (LBB2 drives are an exception as its a spec all TLs can build to)

* the shop is sized as a percentage, or perhaps to the equivalent size of the largest thing it has to be able to fix (so largest engineering component, largest weapon, etc.) or percentage thereof

* price is TL³ x 1000 Cr per ton

* permanent repair/small craft build capabilities are at 5x the ship-based temporary repair size, and full maker capacity 20x.


Which, BTW, would seem to give one a maker price tag for equipping C, B or A starports, the C starport would have the temp ship repair version, B the permanent repair, and A the full maker set.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Hmmm, I like the term Makers much better then Printers. Perhaps we can get a terminology change meme going.

This would be the functional high tech equivalent of a machine shop on major warships, which typically has heavy industrial equipment.

I would tend to make it a percentage installation on board ship, of either total ship tonnage or the drives it supports. The bigger the drives the bigger the shop must be to repair parts.

Ship's weapons may get a separate armory, where weapon parts are made/repaired, and missile maintenance and customization occurs.

I would be leery of full-bore makers that can rebuild a starship. One could limit them by saying that makers that can fit on ships can only build 'get you to the nearest starport' quality parts and impose chances for breakdown, or that by law custom and survival interstellar governments, corps and/or navies do not build fully capable shops lest they fall into the hands of opposing forces.

I have a McGuffin planned from several months back where the pirates are after a cargo ship shipping maker-like facilities being shipped to a colony. The anti-pirate people are going to be VERY unhappy if it falls into corsair hands.

As to capabilities, I would tend to go with something like

* shipboard versions can only repair/create spare parts for the TL and two below the maker is at (LBB2 drives are an exception as its a spec all TLs can build to)

* the shop is sized as a percentage, or perhaps to the equivalent size of the largest thing it has to be able to fix (so largest engineering component, largest weapon, etc.) or percentage thereof

* price is TL³ x 1000 Cr per ton

* permanent repair/small craft build capabilities are at 5x the ship-based temporary repair size, and full maker capacity 20x.


Which, BTW, would seem to give one a maker price tag for equipping C, B or A starports, the C starport would have the temp ship repair version, B the permanent repair, and A the full maker set.

Very helpful reply, thank you

 

[Patron Zero]

I would tend to believe prospectors and miners would be the first to equip their ship's with makers and printers, such individuals not always in the neighborhood of a convenient Star-mart or SSC (Starship Supply Company) to pop-in for a quick replacement part.

Mind such tools unavailable at the time the LBBs were composed but likely Scout/Couriers operated by the IISS would have such included in their 'tool-locker' inventory.

 

[wbyrd]

NASA is already testing 3d printers on the ISS. I'm workign with two different 3d printers now..For applications that don't need to be heat, or abrasion resistant they are great. you can already get models for a large variety of aftermarket parts to print off at home.

with a thousand years and several tech levels of development i cant see any reason why a 3d printer would be an unusual item. Print off the plates silverware, pots and pans then toss them back into the machine to be recycled directly by the printer.

bulk reals of PL plastic ( what I am using now) are very cheap and since the process is fairly stingy with the material...It prints a honeycomb structure inside an object unless directly programmed to form a solid mass...

gaskets, connectors, even conduit cn be easily formd, and with advanced plastics or metal based printing some structural members could be easily formed.

as for soft ware I load models onto a standard SD card I create and process on my year old laptop. a few Megabytes of data is all that is needed, scaling and modification can be done without any real computer savvy...and that's a low tech current TL system...add a scanner and you can scan in an object and replicate it as many times as you lie.

currently the process is slow...very slow...and prone to interruptions, but with a few centuries of development it should radically improve.

 

[Meeko100]

It sounds like a reasonable thing. I'd question what was hard enough/heat-resistant enough,etc to be used in a high stress job that was very, very important but malleable enough until it sets/cools to be used in a 3d printer.

I imagine that 3d printing parts for modern cars would be easy (maybe they're manufactured like that then), but the extreme end of performance required of spaceship components seems like I would doubt their printability.

That, and I'd also ask that if you had a printable material that was as strong as modern tool steel, then how expensive is it? If you had the choice of carrying a bunch of spare parts for your ATV, or having a printer for steel to do that, then is it more cost-effective to just carry a few parts, instead of having a printer solely for that?

It depends on if you really like the idea of 3d printing. If you think it will go that far technologically, then do it. I personally think for minor everyday things yes, anything more demanding then house fixtures, unlikely.

 

[kilemall]

I would tend to believe prospectors and miners would be the first to equip their ship's with makers and printers, such individuals not always in the neighborhood of a convenient Star-mart or SSC (Starship Supply Company) to pop-in for a quick replacement part.

Mind such tools unavailable at the time the LBBs were composed but likely Scout/Couriers operated by the IISS would have such included in their 'tool-locker' inventory.

Hmm, well then, perhaps a modification to my rule- instead, the tonnage indicates repair part 'tons' that it can produce in a single day, specialized to engineering makers, starship weapons makers, electronics, and mining equipment makers. Commit one of those staterooms to 1 ton each for all four, can produce enough parts to fix 1 ton per day. 4 MCr for the mini repair bay.

So a temp repair bay for mining equipment parts for say a 1 ton power plant on a drill takes one day to make (not counting install), five days for a 5 ton engineering drive, etc.

Obviously for a ship with 500 ton drives a 1 ton repair maker is out of the question, so its a question of how quickly the ship needs to be able to repair itself and the value of a very expensive proposition.

For fleets, the likely answer is highly specialized fleet repair ships, and salvage operations would also likely operate some.

Spare parts for the occasional use would come with the yearly maintenance. Heavy use would require replacement earlier then that of course.

 

[wbyrd]

Okay did some surfing and found this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJyf1IrHtcE

a half million dollar industrial printer that can create a functioning copy of a colt 1911. Not exactly cheap and simple but it's a pretty impressive way to demonstrate what your hardware can do.

so evidently, yes in a few centuries you will be able to print high strength high temperature resistant items...

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Okay did some surfing and found this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJyf1IrHtcE

a half million dollar industrial printer that can create a functioning copy of a colt 1911. Not exactly cheap and simple but it's a pretty impressive way to demonstrate what your hardware can do.

so evidently, yes in a few centuries you will be able to print high strength high temperature resistant items...

Now that is going on the direction I am hoping for. I was wondering when Tech Levels 10, 11 and 12 are reached the issues sited above such as abrasion, durability and tensile strength are solved.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Now that is going on the direction I am hoping for. I was wondering when Tech Levels 10, 11 and 12 are reached the issues sited above such as abrasion, durability and tensile strength are solved.

Going beyond mechanical pasts, strap a bio-printer to an autodoc and you get organs replaced on demand. Recenty they have printed blood vessels and a functioning thyroid.

Instead of expensive (and slow) organ cloning or prothetics, a new one can be whipped up in hours.

 

[McPerth]

It sounds like a reasonable thing. I'd question what was hard enough/heat-resistant enough,etc to be used in a high stress job that was very, very important but malleable enough until it sets/cools to be used in a 3d printer.

I imagine that 3d printing parts for modern cars would be easy (maybe they're manufactured like that then), but the extreme end of performance required of spaceship components seems like I would doubt their printability.

That, and I'd also ask that if you had a printable material that was as strong as modern tool steel, then how expensive is it? If you had the choice of carrying a bunch of spare parts for your ATV, or having a printer for steel to do that, then is it more cost-effective to just carry a few parts, instead of having a printer solely for that?

It depends on if you really like the idea of 3d printing. If you think it will go that far technologically, then do it. I personally think for minor everyday things yes, anything more demanding then house fixtures, unlikely.

That is the main issue I see on it. I'm not an engineer, not a materials specialist, but I guess any amtherial resistent enough to be used a a long term ship component will be quite difficult to work on a 3d printer (or makes, as somone says).

That does not mean they would be useless, as they could "print" parts for temporary repairs, forfeiting the need to carry spare parts for everything that can be vital for the ship, and allowing you to, at least, reach a plade where more definitive repairs can be done.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I've had a game where automated shipyards were essentially supper large "printers", if you must use that term. They could produce parts or entire ships. Select what you want, it knows what resources are available in storage and automatically creates purchase orders for what is lacking. Sign off on it and the bots and machinery go to work and you just wait for the job to be done.

The "spare parts" may be actual parts that are stocked, produced in a machine shop, or via a "printer". Or perhaps, a combination of all the above. I assumed there are no TL issues and whatever spare parts mechanism is used on board a ship can produce the parts for that ship. Before 3D printers came about I never worried about the TL capabilities of the drill press, metal bender, cutter/welder, and so on aboard a ship for producing spare parts.

Of course the concept of a 3D printer like shop for producing the ships spare parts does bring up the issue of what other capabilities it might have. Can you land on a TL 6 world and have your TL 14 3D printer create a few TL 12 3D printers for them. Come back a year later and they used the TL 12 3D printers to mass produce TL 10 3D printers and now even the average household can produce any and all possible TL 8 items with the commercial facilities pumping out TL 10? Can they go from TL 6 to TL 10 in a blink of an eye, just with access to the proper machinery and raw resources? We've had this type of thing come up in a game.

That issue aside. I'd say that materials technology advances too, so the concept that a 3D printer needs to be higher tech than the ship to be able to produce any and all parts makes sense.

Also, having a single device like this making everything is great for the evil GM. One can say the high tech printer broke down and who is skilled enough to repair it (-DM, higher difficulty, or just impossible to do [depending on your vs of Travellers mechanics] for being trained at a lower tech level than the equipment you are trying to repair) and how do you get or make the parts?

 

[wbyrd]

Now that is going on the direction I am hoping for. I was wondering when Tech Levels 10, 11 and 12 are reached the issues sited above such as abrasion, durability and tensile strength are solved.

And this is just the beginning of the technology..sooner or later someone is going to figure out how to print electronics and computers.

That is the main issue I see on it. I'm not an engineer, not a materials specialist, but I guess any amtherial resistent enough to be used a a long term ship component will be quite difficult to work on a 3d printer (or makes, as somone says).

That does not mean they would be useless, as they could "print" parts for temporary repairs, forfeiting the need to carry spare parts for everything that can be vital for the ship, and allowing you to, at least, reach a plade where more definitive repairs can be done.

the metals for a gun barrel are as strong or stronger than those used in construction, being able to contain an explosion that will rip you hand apart requires a pretty serious amount of strength. b the 3I timeline I am reasonable certain titanium, and other metals would be in the range of a printer..especially if it is using laser sintering...using a laser to fuse powdered metals.

combine a printer that lays down hair thin layers of powered metal, you could create a combinations of metals with varying properties.. If you then fuse it with a laser, you could conceivably create a metal alloy component as strong as an conventional structure..

the might even be stronger since welds tend to be stronger than the metal surrounding it..and a laser sintered part is all weld...

 

[CosmicGamer]

the might even be stronger since welds tend to be stronger than the metal surrounding it..and a laser sintered part is all weld...

Not even close to knowing what I'm talking about - but I do know that metals have multiple properties. Does a weld provide similar thermal conductivity, malleability, flexibility, luster...

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Going beyond mechanical pasts, strap a bio-printer to an autodoc and you get organs replaced on demand. Recenty they have printed blood vessels and a functioning thyroid.

Instead of expensive (and slow) organ cloning or prothetics, a new one can be whipped up in hours.

I have digested some of the recent news about that very such thing. However the issues raised with the 3d/Maker of tissues/organs and such I ask the question... DNA source and immuno-capatibility. That said I would project that by tech level 10,11,12 that such issues would be resolved.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Not even close to knowing what I'm talking about - but I do know that metals have multiple properties. Does a weld provide similar thermal conductivity, malleability, flexibility, luster...

These are very good questions!, in fact my ignorance on such things has driven me back into the academic world for courses to shore up my lack of knowledge.

 

[wbyrd]

Not even close to knowing what I'm talking about - but I do know that metals have multiple properties. Does a weld provide similar thermal conductivity, malleability, flexibility, luster...

short answer it depend on the metal and the type of weld. long answer..it depends on the type of weld and the metals involved.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Also, having a single device like this making everything is great for the evil GM. One can say the high tech printer broke down and who is skilled enough to repair it (-DM, higher difficulty, or just impossible to do [depending on your vs of Travellers mechanics] for being trained at a lower tech level than the equipment you are trying to repair) and how do you get or make the parts?

Creation of a great labor market for repair specialists....and I see these great scene being replayed....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wsjroVlu8 ( from Office Space the movie).

 

[atpollard]

short answer it depend on the metal and the type of weld. long answer..it depends on the type of weld and the metals involved.

That's not an 'engineer' answer, that's a 'lawyer' answer.
Engineers use decimal points.

Spoiler:

lawyers talk in circles.