5FW shipping losses

[Carlobrand]

You can toss that idea into the shredder. ...

I'd love to, but it's repeatedly embodied in different versions of the rules.

High Guard: "After the battle, damaged ships may be repaired at shipyards. Jump drives may be repaired at class A starports; any other ship systems may be repaired at class A or B starports. In any case, repairs must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level (although the referee may make exceptions)."

TCS: "Full repair may be done at any A or B starport, but j-drive repairs require double cost and time at B starports, and no starport may repair a ship system of higher tech level than the starport's tech level."

MegaTrav: "After the battle has reached a resolution, any ships which have been damaged in the battle may be repaired at shipyards. Jump drives may be repaired at class A starports; any other ship systems may be repaired at class A or B starports. In any situation, repairs to a damaged ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required Tech Level (although it is an option of the referee to make exceptions to this rule)."

Inasmuch as the original question pertained to the capabilities of the canon milieu, I have to assume the original poster is interested in a canon analysis, not a referee's option. If we want to expand into referee options and exceptions, then life for the fleet becomes a lot simpler.

Add: I might add that I don't know of a version that opens up repair to naval bases. Whatever we might be doing in the modern age, it's not being reflected in the canon milieu.

 

[rancke]

I'd love to, but it's repeatedly embodied in different versions of the rules.

High Guard: "After the battle, damaged ships may be repaired at shipyards. Jump drives may be repaired at class A starports; any other ship systems may be repaired at class A or B starports. In any case, repairs must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level (although the referee may make exceptions)."

TCS: "Full repair may be done at any A or B starport, but j-drive repairs require double cost and time at B starports, and no starport may repair a ship system of higher tech level than the starport's tech level."

MegaTrav: "After the battle has reached a resolution, any ships which have been damaged in the battle may be repaired at shipyards. Jump drives may be repaired at class A starports; any other ship systems may be repaired at class A or B starports. In any situation, repairs to a damaged ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required Tech Level (although it is an option of the referee to make exceptions to this rule)."

These rules all overlook or ignore the fact that a world can have shipyards capable of building starships even if it doesn't have a Class A starport. (HG allows worlds to build starships using local resources even if they don't have Class A starports -- it's hard to imagine them doing so without shipyards). In other words, these rules are simplified for the sake of easier game play, not accurate reflections of the setting reality.


Hans

 

[aramis]

You missed my point ENTIRELY. The point was about the ability to make serious & MAJOR repairs to warships outside of ship yards.

Then Pearl was a bad choice. See http://www.navsea.navy.mil/shipyards/pearl/phnsy/History.aspx

 

[mike wightman]

TCS rules have to be taken with a pinch of salt as a model for TL15 Imperial practice.

For one thing TCS does not allow you to put any money into building an IN base.

An IN base is an island of TL15 wonders in a low TL sea, it has the facilities to completely refuel any fleet that jumps in, it has replacements and spares to rebuild/repair damaged ships regardless of the world's TL - the rules in FFW tall us so.

 

[rancke]

I suppose you could estimate total military shipyard capacity by figuring out the total tonnage of the Imperial Navy, the duchy navies, and the planetary navies. Divide this number by 25 to get the capacity dedicated to annual maintenances. Divide the same number by 40 to get peacetime replacement construction. Add the two figures.

But this overlooks what all the rules overlook: that this is peacetime capacity and is not going to remain static. The moment the Imperium (or the spinward part of the Imperium) goes on a war footing, shipyards will begin hiring and training more workers and buying more construction equipment. According to Striker, a world can expend 15% of its GWP for a while and Imperial worlds average 3% during peacetime. So wartime budgets could be as much as five times higher than the peacetime budgets. All, or at least some, of this extra capacity will remain active after the war until the various navies have worked off their backlog of destroyed and damaged ships.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

thanks to mass production and the new "Kaiser" yards (Liberty ships). That raise another question: I am using my industrial capacity to produce ships now or to produce yards that will produce ships in a year (or two)?

Sure that was decisive for cargo shipping, but in combat capital ships, the US began the war with 6 CVs and 17 BBs, and in 1944 they had 13 CVs (plus 9 CVLs) and 23 BBs, even while they had lost 4 CVs, 1 CVL and 2 BBs in combat.

 

[McPerth]

Inasmuch as the original question pertained to the capabilities of the canon milieu, I have to assume the original poster is interested in a canon analysis, not a referee's option. If we want to expand into referee options and exceptions, then life for the fleet becomes a lot simpler.

In this regard, I've never read any canon source talking about supply or repair problems for the two IN fletes traped in Efate (TL 13) or Jewell (TL 12) for nearly 3 years, hinting that the bases there allowed them to perform repairs and even annual maintenance (though I guess they were fighting with local build, and so TL 12-13, missiles quite son).

 

[HG_B]

Then Pearl was a bad choice.

No. I meant outside the type of yards where the ship is built. AND commercial. Pearl was a Mil facility. It wasn't a commercial yard turning out ships. It was a Navy Depot.

 

[HG_B]

I'd love to, but it's repeatedly embodied in different versions of the rules.

High Guard: "After the battle, damaged ships may be repaired

Operative is "may be". Not, "will be" or, "must be".

 

[Carlobrand]

I suppose you could estimate total military shipyard capacity by figuring out the total tonnage of the Imperial Navy, the duchy navies, and the planetary navies. Divide this number by 25 to get the capacity dedicated to annual maintenances. Divide the same number by 40 to get peacetime replacement construction. Add the two figures.

But this overlooks what all the rules overlook: that this is peacetime capacity and is not going to remain static. The moment the Imperium (or the spinward part of the Imperium) goes on a war footing, shipyards will begin hiring and training more workers and buying more construction equipment. According to Striker, a world can expend 15% of its GWP for a while and Imperial worlds average 3% during peacetime. So wartime budgets could be as much as five times higher than the peacetime budgets. All, or at least some, of this extra capacity will remain active after the war until the various navies have worked off their backlog of destroyed and damaged ships.


Hans

Is a good point. Lots of room in space for expansion, after all, and in a universe where million-ton tenders jump from star to star, there's no great difficulty in flying in mobile construction and repair resources from Depot's cold storage or some other holding point to expand a port's capabilities.

In this regard, I've never read any canon source talking about supply or repair problems for the two IN fletes traped in Efate (TL 13) or Jewell (TL 12) for nearly 3 years, hinting that the bases there allowed them to perform repairs and even annual maintenance (though I guess they were fighting with local build, and so TL 12-13, missiles quite son).

Also a good point, although I've never actually seen an Imperial fleet at Jewell last more than a couple turns after the Zho showed up. There's a great gulf between what the canon rules make possible and what the canon story tells, not to mention - as several point out - between what the canon rules make possible and what a rational naval administration would do given the same challenges. As I recall, the IN has a naval base at an E port somewhere in the Marches.

 

[McPerth]

Also a good point, although I've never actually seen an Imperial fleet at Jewell last more than a couple turns after the Zho showed up.

Neither have I, in any FFW gamboard I've played, but those matches are not canon, OTU history is, and, IIRC, in OTU history IN had presence in Jewell the whole war.

BTW same can be said about Efate...

There's a great gulf between what the canon rules make possible and what the canon story tells, not to mention - as several point out - between what the canon rules make possible and what a rational naval administration would do given the same challenges. As I recall, the IN has a naval base at an E port somewhere in the Marches.

FFW gameboard rules do not fit OTU history, as any commander that believes (as the Zhodani HQ did) that Jewell or Efate will fall to blockade/siege is asking for defeat, as there are not even rules for blockade/siege in FFW.

 

[aramis]

No. I meant outside the type of yards where the ship is built. AND commercial. Pearl was a Mil facility. It wasn't a commercial yard turning out ships. It was a Navy Depot.

It was specifically a Navy Yard, and had been since the 1890's. It literally was capable of building ships from the keel up if need be. That it didn't build from the keel up had more to do with cost of shipping raw materials. It did convert some ships to other classes, and performed major repairs, including refloating at least one BB. The only pacific fleet yard more capable at the time was the Alameda complex. It also had docking space for more than half of PacFleet. Pearl City existed because of the yards; it eventually merged into Honolulu.

It corresponds to a Depot, not a Navy Base. And all the Traveller Depots I've seen are rated as A ports.

 

[Selandia]

Sure that was decisive for cargo shipping, but in combat capital ships, the US began the war with 6 CVs (plus 9 CVLs) and 17 BBs, and in 1944 they had 13 CVs and 23 BBs, even while they had lost 4 CVs, 1 CVL and 2 BBs in combat.

Thanks for quantifying the point. So old (or new ones, I do not know how that work was shared if shared) "Navy slipways" did turn out a lot of ships. Still, if someone want to figure 3I wartime building capability (my point, sorry if I missed some other points) you still have to figure the possibility that 3I expanded its production facilities. Even if new yards were for "simple" mass produced ships, yards built or expanded to build merchant ships, Fleet auxiliaries (often converted merchant hulls) and "minor" warships spared major yards for Capital ships in WWII.. They may have done so in FFW and so remains the need to factor them in.

I believe that "Realistically" figuring 3I FFW ship building capacity assigned to SM needs is way beyond TCS or other simple formula, for we have too little informations.

Lets not have that preclude you from using such a formula if you need it to have fun, of course. Just factor in repair needs, the possibility to expand the supply and the global supply and demand balance of the 3I and it may be more convincing than TCS building rules (but being fun is always best).

Selandia

 

[Hal]

One of the things I rather wanted/hoped to see be created for starports, was the production capacity for any given yard based upon 1 shift, 2 shifts, and 3 shifts (assuming a 24 hour production schedule). The problem here, at least to my eyes, is that once you build a facility - it needs to turn a profit, or it needs to be subsidized where profit is not the primary motive. Excess capacity however, doesn't seem to be something that can be just handwaved into existence, nor handwaved out of existence. If a shipyard wants to maximize its profits, it would likely run the shipyard at its highest productivity levels - 24 hours per day, and possibly even 7 days a week. Where is the Military going to get excess productivity from a civilian outfit that is already maximizing its output to meet current demands? Balancing current demands against investments already made is going to be a problem in and of itself. Having excess capacity seems even more unlikely unless...

You cut into civilian production in order to produce more military production.

Alternatively, you build facilities that are utilized at say, 80 capacity, don't need to show a profit, and rev it up when you need more output, slow it down when you don't. My problem is that this can't be done too excessively where the starports are subsidized too much or it becomes an issue of managed economies versus capitalistic societies where corruption sets in real quick. Then again, the idea that the Third Imperium is without corruption after 1,100 years is a tad optimistic as it were

 

[HG_B]

Where is the Military going to get excess productivity from a civilian outfit that is already maximizing its output to meet current demands?

If it is a war situation that question answers itself.

 

[Hal]

If it is a war situation that question answers itself.

True enough, and it was more or less a rhetorical question. The problem however, is to what extent does the Military production take away from the civilian production? Put another way? How much civilian production does the Third Imperium require to remain healthy? How long can it sustain itself on already produced ships before it starts to fall behind? How many civilian ships have to be destroyed before it has a major effect on the civilian sector being able to supply the military sector?

 

[HG_B]

Put another way? How much civilian production does the Third Imperium require to remain healthy? How long can it sustain itself on already produced ships before it starts to fall behind?

Simple. It will never be enough to keep the 3I going because per the trade rules ships almost never make a profit and go BK. :devil:

In other words, you can't derive that data from the game info available.

 

[aramis]

Simple. It will never be enough to keep the 3I going because per the trade rules ships almost never make a profit and go BK. :devil:

In other words, you can't derive that data from the game info available.

Bk2 designed ships can make money at Cr1000 per Td for freight for J1.
If it's the 1977 edition, rather than the 1981 edition, up to J3 can. (Due to differences in PP fuel rates.)

 

[rancke]

True enough, and it was more or less a rhetorical question. The problem however, is to what extent does the Military production take away from the civilian production? Put another way? How much civilian production does the Third Imperium require to remain healthy? How long can it sustain itself on already produced ships before it starts to fall behind? How many civilian ships have to be destroyed before it has a major effect on the civilian sector being able to supply the military sector?

I should think it will be able to sustain its military production even if most of the civilian shipping is destroyed. Interstellar shipping in the OTU is portrayed as a very small part of planetary production. Nothing at all like 20th Century mercantile nations.

Not that it will ever get that far. As I said in a previous post, shipyards will simply expand to meet the increased demand, training more workers and buying more tools and machines. If necessary, new ships will be built in Corridor and Vland and most shipyard capacity in the Marches and Deneb will shift to maintenance and repair.


Hans

 

[Hal]

I forget if someone mentioned this earlier in thread, and if so, I apologize. If not...

I think one way to determine how many hulls any given subsector has, is to look at GURPS TRAVELLER FAR TRADER's rules for determining how much trade exists between any pair of worlds. Then, it also has rules for determining how much freight is generated between those two worlds on a yearly basis.

From that, determine how many trips any given craft can make in a year - then divide the total tonnage (divided by the number of trips a ship can make) by the tonnage of the various ships you "build" for use in your Traveller Universe.

That should give a rough estimate of ships required - but only for use with GURPS

However, the concepts remain the same if you can find ways to determine the economic output of any given world in Traveller terms, and then determine the average value per ton that a given world's output will be (which has been done since MERCHANT PRINCE if I recall correctly).