A Day In The Life

[Dragoner]

Well, that's modern (1990-2020) fighting. In the future, there are drones and other detection systems, heads-up displays, image magnification, tactical maps, and of course the Battle Dress, itself. Fighting probably takes place at much larger distances than they did in 'modern' wars. Which the Imperium's not going to just issue Battle Dress to every person who makes it out of boot camp. In my headcanon, at least, marines don't get the chance to wear the standard marine battle dress gear until at least their second tour, by which time they've (hopefully) proven they're not too stupid.
My coworker who hunts and shoots competitively claims to be able to kill a deer with a shotgun slug at up to 800 yards. This is with scopes and such, but modern gear, not 3rd Imperium TL12-15 stuff. I haven't seen him do it, but he seems legit and I have no reason to doubt him. I think a lot of scifi underplays how much future advances will change warfare.

Yes, I agree range will increase, that has generally been true. I was not commenting on your story, which is great, only thinking about the uniforms (esp the colored ones in the pics). You will need a helmet mounted display to get a sight picture, which sort of brings up an interesting thought about not even needing to bring your weapon up to your shoulder. IMO with BD it will be similar to other pieces of high tech equipment in being maintenance heavy, you don't want a soldier's knee to lock up, it lets the whole unit down. Though I know someone from a maint. section said they liked to have three APC's for each squad, so that one could be in the field, another waiting in the yard, and the last in the shop. IMTU they train from day one with BD, though BDU is Combat Armor, simply less maintenance, that way any unit could be up-armored if needed. I have used this pic too for BD, sort of cool, maybe not 100% accurate. With my 870 and a slug, not even close to 800 yards, maybe that is just me.

 

[Badenov]

Yes, I agree range will increase, that has generally been true. I was not commenting on your story, which is great,

Thank you!

only thinking about the uniforms (esp the colored ones in the pics). You will need a helmet mounted display to get a sight picture, which sort of brings up an interesting thought about not even needing to bring your weapon up to your shoulder.

I agree, but if you fire from the shoulder, the rest of your body can remain behind cover. Part of me thinks that shoulder-firing and hip firing would be trained, and you'd choose based on your situation, but that complicates training a lot, and so maybe they always fire from the shoulder for the advantage of cover.

IMO with BD it will be similar to other pieces of high tech equipment in being maintenance heavy, you don't want a soldier's knee to lock up, it lets the whole unit down. Though I know someone from a maint. section said they liked to have three APC's for each squad, so that one could be in the field, another waiting in the yard, and the last in the shop.

That's definitely something to think about. OTOH, this is some thousands of years in the future. We went from inventing airplanes to landing on the moon inside 70 years in RL. If Traveller hasn't invented new things, maybe they've at least got the reliability thing worked out?

IMTU they train from day one with BD, though BDU is Combat Armor, simply less maintenance, that way any unit could be up-armored if needed. I have used this pic too for BD, sort of cool, maybe not 100% accurate.

Cool pic. So I just recently found Mongoose (it's the only version I own, sorry) errata that changes the cost for BD from 3,500,000 to 220,000 Credits while bumping the protection from 18 to 25. Is that closer to the stats in other versions? That change is a huge deal in fielding forces of any size. But the Improved Boarding Vacc Suit, at 20,000 Credits for protection 12 is still less than 10% of the BD cost. Sadly, a lot of military acquisition thinks of the cost before the benefit. OTOH, even 12 armor will convert a 20-point non-armor piercing hit, which is pretty hard, to a survivable, if not happy, 8-point hit and a 20-point hit with AP 8 (so 4d6 Super AP or 8d6 regular AP) to 16 damage, which pretty serious but not immediately fatal. Something like a TL12 gauss rifle does 4d6 per shot, and a short burst is 4d6+4, which is 18 on average, and can be AP or SuperAP with special ammo. Lasers get a bit higher, but no AP, so work out close to the same (TL13 Cartridge Laser Rifle does 5d6+3 with +4 for a short burst, or about 24 damage, or about 12 vs the cheap armor. for 6x the cost of the gauss rifle.)

With my 870 and a slug, not even close to 800 yards, maybe that is just me.

Yeah, my coworker is a bit obsessed.

 

[Badenov]

So I just recently found Mongoose (it's the only version I own, sorry) errata that changes the cost for BD from 3,500,000 to 220,000 Credits while bumping the protection from 18 to 25. Is that closer to the stats in other versions? That change is a huge deal in fielding forces of any size. But the Improved Boarding Vacc Suit, at 20,000 Credits for protection 12 is still less than 10% of the BD cost. Sadly, a lot of military acquisition thinks of the cost before the benefit.

So, I have had second thoughts on this, while getting ready for my day. My original headcanon of having them wear the cheaper, less capable armor while in their first term as a way of weeding out those who would not make the grade is wasteful of the trememdous resources the Imperium is already investing in these people. Making the BD standard issue for all marines, at a cost increase per marine of only 200,000 Cr, gives a very significant upgrade in terms of survivability (Armor 12->25) as well as opening the field tremendously because the physical stats needed are much lower, as the BD is powered and therefore provides significant assistance, carrying capacity-wise.

This will obviously require a revision to the story, but I am of two opinions. Do I just bump everyone up to BD marines and rewrite to reflext that, or maybe there's a reason they're in the unpowered armor? My first thought on that is they're from a poor world, and they do boot camp in unpowered armor while waiting for the imperium to ship the good stuff, and when the war happens, they need to go in what they have.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So I just recently found Mongoose (it's the only version I own, sorry)

I'll assume then that you do not have access to LBB4 Mercenary which would provide some of the necessary nuances you're looking for here, so I'll try to provide one perspective that you can make use of.

My original headcanon of having them wear the cheaper, less capable armor while in their first term as a way of weeding out those who would not make the grade is wasteful of the trememdous resources the Imperium is already investing in these people. Making the BD standard issue for all marines, at a cost increase per marine of only 200,000 Cr, gives a very significant upgrade in terms of survivability (Armor 12->25) as well as opening the field tremendously because the physical stats needed are much lower, as the BD is powered and therefore provides significant assistance, carrying capacity-wise.

In LBB4 extended character generation for Army and Marines, the ONLY opportunity to get Battle dress skill is from the Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) Table, which you roll on ONCE for your first year of Basic and Advanced Training before rolling for unit assignments the following year. Here is what that table looks like:

What this means is that Army can have a choice of Arm from Artillery, Cavalry, Infantry or Support after being recruited.
Marines have a choice of Arm between Marine or Support.
Commando MOS requires attendance of Special Assignment: Commando School ... after which, when re-enlisting for another term, you are eligible to change arms to the Commando Arm at the beginning of your new term, making you eligible for a year of Advanced Training and a fresh roll on the MOS Table.

The MOS Table is the only place in extended character generation in CT that Battle dress skill can be obtained from ... and the tech level of the recruit's world needs to be TL=12+ in order to have a 1 in 6 chance of learning Battle dress skill.

Point being that Battle dress is not "universal" for marines, according to the extended character generation system. Most marines will not have Battle dress skill ... and the most Battle dress skill that can ever be learned is Battle dress-2 from being a Marine MOS first and then becoming a Commando MOS later, giving you 2 rolls on the MOS skills table and you roll 6 both times. In other words, Battle dress skill is such an exclusive club that most marines never get the skill and only some army commandos ever learn the skill ... and it is extremely unlikely a character will ever learn Battle dress-2 skill (let alone 3+).

The only other path to learning Battle dress skill is via Special Assignment: Cross Training, which is only available to Enlisted and NCO ranks, not Officers. Army cannot cross train as marines or commandos. Marines cannot cross train as artillery, cavalry, infantry or commandos. So the only viable path to learning additional skill levels in Battle dress is to be a marine in the Support Arm, receive cross training as a Marine and roll 6+1: Battle dress from a year of cross training. Only the Marine Support Arm would be eligible for this result from repeated cross training assignments.

So in terms of the marine unit you're featuring in your story, there are a few possibilities why Combat Armor instead of Battle dress is being issued to the troops featured.

1. Unit specialization: Flower's unit is primarily a(n armed) recon unit, rather than a direct combat unit, so they get Combat Armor instead
2. Tech level: Flower's unit is home based at a world with TL=11- and thus doesn't offer training in Battle dress.
3. Luck of the draw: Flower didn't "make the cut" during Basic for diversion into the Battle dress program for his Advanced Training.

I can also imagine that the logistics tail for Battle dress is going to be "heavier" due to the high technology than the alternative of Combat Armor, just like how "cavalry armor" can be a "heavier" logistical lift than "mechanized infantry" (let alone dismounted infantry) that can be more dependent upon supply chains to keep operational. So you wind up with a case of Battle dress being the "tip of the spear" while Combat Armor is the "blade of the spear" ... if that analogy helps any.

Battle dress is therefore reserved for what amount to specialty shock troops, while everyone else gets Combat Armor.

For the purposes of your story then, Flower and his unit just aren't one of the specialty shock troop groups, so they get Combat Armor instead.

 

[GLΩAMING]

So I just recently found Mongoose (it's the only version I own, sorry) errata that changes the cost for BD from 3,500,000 to 220,000 Credits while bumping the protection from 18 to 25.

Sorry to butt in! But where are these? In the 2022 updated core rulebook I own, the editors managed to leave out the stats for BD entirely... Or at least hid them so well I can't find them.

 

[kilemall]

Original CT battle dress had unlimited endurance, ability to handle firing non-grav assist plasma/fusion guns, doubled strength, and got +2 on surprise. The latter doesn’t seem to have made it to later versions, and is not defined whether it is stealth or superior sensors/awareness.

The CT Striker BD version has IMO better armor but no surprise advantages, but does have a standard 100kg carry capacity.

 

[Dragoner]

This will obviously require a revision to the story, but I am of two opinions. Do I just bump everyone up to BD marines and rewrite to reflext that, or maybe there's a reason they're in the unpowered armor? My first thought on that is they're from a poor world, and they do boot camp in unpowered armor while waiting for the imperium to ship the good stuff, and when the war happens, they need to go in what they have.

It is a good story, I would like to read more, it is up to you, though it doesn't seem like it needs a lot of changes. It seems good almost to leave it as is, so then you can write about them getting BD.

Original BD was simply powered CA, +2 on surprise, which I figured was active camo, good sensors "all the bells and whistles" kind of deal. Current, that is a change, how one wants to add that in to the calculations, cheaper, with more protection, its rarity factor would fall, be more common, probably.

Logistical footprint of a piece of equipment is not only what is available, though also what will be available tomorrow after losses. Hopping from star system to star system adds another dimension to all that.

 

[Dragoner]

Sorry to butt in! But where are these? In the 2022 updated core rulebook I own, the editors managed to leave out the stats for BD entirely... Or at least hid them so well I can't find them.

There is an errata pdf that has it. https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pages/downloads-htm

 

[whulorigan]

Sorry to butt in! But where are these? In the 2022 updated core rulebook I own, the editors managed to leave out the stats for BD entirely... Or at least hid them so well I can't find them.

They hid the stats in the Errata :

ERRATA:

BATTLE DRESS & HE VACC SUIT (PAGE 100)
Add the following to the armour table:

ARMOUR TYPE	PROTECTION	TL	RAD	KG	COST	REQUIRED SKILL
Battle Dress	+22	13	245	100 *	Cr200000	Vacc Suit 2
	+25	14	290	100 *	Cr220000	Vacc Suit 1

* As powered armour, battle dress supports its own weight. While powered and active, the mass of battle dress does not count against the encumbrance of the wearer and is effectively weightless.​

ARMOUR TYPE	PROTECTION	TL	RAD	KG	COST	REQUIRED SKILL
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (HEV)	+8	9	75	40	Cr24000	Vacc Suit 1
	+9	10	90	30	Cr20000	Vacc Suit 1
	+14	13	170	20	Cr40000	Vacc Suit 0
	+15	14	185	10	Cr60000	Vacc Suit 0

 

[TamsinP]

What this means is that Army can have a choice of Arm from Artillery, Cavalry, Infantry or Support after being recruited.
Marines have a choice of Arm between Marine or Support.
Commando MOS requires attendance of Special Assignment: Commando School ... after which, when re-enlisting for another term, you are eligible to change arms to the Commando Arm at the beginning of your new term, making you eligible for a year of Advanced Training and a fresh roll on the MOS Table.

I'm not sure where you get the extra year of advanced training on change of arms from. It's not mentioned on p3 (Advanced Training) or p9 (Changing Arms of service). Looking at the equivalent section of the Players' Manual for MegaTraveller:
p48 Initial Training
"The first year of service is dedicated to initial training.the character receives Gun Combat and one skill by throwing 1D and consulting the Military Occupational Speciality (MOS) table of the character's chosen combat arm."
p49 Changing Combat Arms makes no mention of doing a year of advanced training.

As you can only change arms after either cross-training (where you get 1 roll on the MOS of that arm) or attending commando school, where you roll for each of the listed skills, those special duty assignments would be the advanced training for the new combat arm.

In theory it would be possible after 1 term as a Marine to have Battle Dress 4 if the yrs 2-4 assignments aren't Internal Security or Garrison, you survive the assignments, pass the roll to get a skill and roll a 6 on the MOS each time. Unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[TamsinP]

There is an errata pdf that has it. https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pages/downloads-htm

Just to note that if you bought the CRB direct from Mongoose (or through one of their bricks-and-mortar affiliates), you should have the PDF as well - it has been updated to include that errata.

 

[whulorigan]

In CT: LBB4 extended character generation for Army and Marines, . . . . Army cannot cross train as marines or commandos. Marines cannot cross train as artillery, cavalry, infantry or commandos.

This is not entirely correct. Or at least, your statement is not entirely clear. It is Commissioned Officers specifically who are ineligible for cross-training outside their branch of service. Both enlisted and NCOs in either service may cross-train in a branch other than their initial branch via the cross-training Special Assignment (but neither can cross-train as Commandoes, nor can Army cross-train as Marines):

CT: LBB4, p.5:

For Enlisted Men and Non-Commissioned Officers:
1. Cross-training: The player rolls once on the MOS table of any other service arm than his own. He further notes that he has been cross-trained in that arm. Neither army nor marine personnel may cross-train as commandoes. Army personnel may not cross train as marines. At the conclusion of any term after a player has cross-trained in another arm, and provided the player successfully reenlists, the player may switch to that arm. Thus while the only combat arm that a marine may initially enter is infantry, it is possible to transfer into cavalry or artillery through cross-training.

And as you noted, training as a Commando (from either service) is only accomplished by rolling Commando School as a Special Assignment, after which an Officer or Enlisted/NCO from either Service may transfer to that branch at the beginning of the following term.

 

[Badenov]

So Mongoose chargen is wildly different than LBB, it seems. Mongoose has a thing called Basic Training, where for your first career, you get all the skills in your Service Skills category, though at level 0. This means that all marines will have Battle Dress 0, at least, though what you can wear with BD 0 is nothing. You -can- wear Battle Dress, but will take a -2 to basically everything. This may not be a crisis when mostly nothing short of heavy weapons can touch you and you're armed with an FGMP. Marine combat specialties and officers get the opportunity to roll for Battle Dress. The chance is still only 1 in 6, though, and I understand that there will be marines who do not roll this number. I wonder what they would wear, of if they'd be crammed into battle dress anyhow and told to suck it up if they didn't qualify, because I can see that happening, too.

Alternate thought: Traveller is not intended to generate active duty forces, but veterans. Perhaps the roll during chargen should not be interpreted as having learned or not learned a skill, but whether the character retained it after they mustered out. I know a number of service people that happily data dumped esoteric skills on separating. That changes the flavor again and also allows all active duty to wear Battle Dress without penalty because they qualified at the time.

Also: The Mongoose Central Supply Catalogue does have a few armored suits with no prereqs, such as Regular/Improved/Advanced Combat Armor, though the errata shows them as requiring Vacc Suit 0 at TL 12 and 14. Since the aforementioned errata shows Battle Dress suits requiring Vacc Suit skill, I am assuming Vacc Suit and Battle Dress skills got merged? In this case, any marine can wear a VS 0 armor. But it seems like there are multiple Mongoose rulesets on top of all the other versions so I will stop speculating in that direction.

In the end: I am not sure which way to lean on the Battle Dress skill level debate. I do like Flowers and his group wearing the cheapo Improved Boarding Vacc Suit, and I think I will retain the idea that it was based on what his home planet provided his group during boot camp (should we call it 'Suit Camp'?) and they simply got mobilized while waiting for battle dress to be delivered.

 

[Dragoner]

CT CA/BD only req'd Vacc Suit 1, and Vacc Suit 0 was standard for PC's. Mongoose has it some different, though one can also pick up skills via the skill package, or connections. I have always been a bit leery of applying chargen to "real life". It is what it is though. One thing to think of with BD equipped troops is how far away the nearest TL 13 world is.

 

[Spinward Flow]

One thing to think of with BD equipped troops is how far away the nearest TL 13 world is.

This.

I can also imagine that the logistics tail for Battle dress is going to be "heavier" due to the high technology than the alternative of Combat Armor, just like how "cavalry armor" can be a "heavier" logistical lift

Without the logistics tail to keep the tech maintained, your high tech stuff is going to have a "half life" (with combat somewhat obviously accelerating that "time till breakdown").

If you look around the Spinward Marches in 1105, for example ... there really aren't that many TL=13+ worlds lying around (16 total under Imperial control). There are SOME, but they aren't always in convenient locations.

• Jewell subsector: TL=12 (x1)
• Regina subsector: TL=13 (x5)
• Aramis subsector: TL=11 (x4), TL=12 (x1)
• Vilis subsector: TL=10 (x4), TL=12 (x1) outside Imperial border
• Lanth subsector: TL=11 (x2), TL=13 (x1)
• Rhylanor subsector: TL=12 (x1), TL=13 (x1), TL=14 (x1), TL=15 (x1)
• Lunion subsector: TL=13 (x2), TL-14 (x1)
• Mora subsector: TL=12 (x1), TL=14 (x1), TL=15 (x1)
• Five Sisters subsector: TL=11 (x2), TL=12 (x2)
• Glisten subsector: TL=12 (x1), TL=15 (x1)
• Trin's Veil subsector: TL=12 (x1), TL=15 (x1)

Ironically, the Regina subsector has the "highest density of high tech worlds" (5x TL=13+), while the rest of the Imperial controlled subsectors have only 1-3 worlds that are TL=13+ within them.

Point being, in the Spinward Marches, "high tech" not by no means "ubiquitous" or otherwise "equally available everywhere just for the asking" by anyone at any time for any reason.

 

[Badenov]

This.

Without the logistics tail to keep the tech maintained, your high tech stuff is going to have a "half life" (with combat somewhat obviously accelerating that "time till breakdown").


Point being, in the Spinward Marches, "high tech" not by no means "ubiquitous" or otherwise "equally available everywhere just for the asking" by anyone at any time for any reason.

That seems to imply that imperial military bases are high tech (12-ish, at least) oases in these lowtech sectors? Even if the planet can't support it, on its own, I would expect the Imperium to keep it's own bases up to par, at least? With ship repair docks and engineers/techs. Or do they just base their subsector fleets on these individual high-tech planets?

 

[Spinward Flow]

That seems to imply that imperial military bases are high tech (12-ish, at least) oases in these lowtech sectors? Even if the planet can't support it, on its own, I would expect the Imperium to keep it's own bases up to par, at least? With ship repair docks and engineers/techs. Or do they just base their subsector fleets on these individual high-tech planets?

Imperial naval bases ( icon on the sector map) are presumably kept supplied at TL=15 for the Imperial Navy ... but as to whether that "filters down" to the Army and Marines has not, to my knowledge, ever been conclusively detailed. It's probably just one of those "leave it up to the Referee's discretion" kinds of things for how people want to run their Traveller universes.

Perhaps a better way to think of it is that Imperial naval bases are logistics and support hubs for the Imperial Navy, but if the local tech level is below TL=F then all that fancy navy kit has to be imported, since it can't be sourced locally.

The analogy is a poor one, but it's a bit like being able to get local cell phone tower service in a country that doesn't produce any cellular technology locally ... it's all imported. So stuff like iPhones might be sold locally and used locally, but everything to produce them and make them work is imported from out of country. Break that supply chain of tech and expertise and ... I think you can see where I'm going with that.

To extend the analogy, a naval base would presumably have "stockpiles of stuff" ... but those supplies are not "unlimited" and if/when they run out, there's two options ... buy local or wait for resupply (offer not necessarily valid during open hostilities).

So although "stuff" may be in the stockpile at the base, I'm not aware of quartermasters being particularly keen on throwing the doors open with a "help yourself..." attitude when it comes to sharing what they have in stock in inventory.



If you approach the question from a standpoint of mirroring the relationship between the USN (big brother) and the USMC (little brother) ... especially when taking the Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not Essential perspective, where the marines get the "hand me downs" and have a lower budget than the other services so they have to "make do" with whatever they've got, then I can easily imagine conditions under which marines are NOT pushed towards "max tech everything" ... and thus, more like the Scout service, need to "live off the land" more for their supply lines and procurement systems, meaning shorter logistics tails.

Note that this isn't necessarily a Bad Thing™ ... since it means that lower tech marines will possess familiarity and tactics with lower tech warfare than their BD+FGMP counterparts who do high tech (at high expense!) warfare. In other words, there will be a broader base of knowledge and skills to draw from, making it easier to find The Right Tool For The Job (or words to that effect).



Which is another way of saying you don't HAVE TO make Flower and his company a TL=15 Brute Squad if you don't want to.

Leave the battle dress to the "Imperial Stormtroopers" of the marines and you'll have a more interesting story to tell. For one thing, Flower (and friends) might ENVY the battle dress equipped marines ... but like Spock said to Stonn on Vulcan, "You may find, after a time, that HAVING is not so pleasing a thing after all, as WANTING. It is not logical, but it is often TRUE."

 

[kilemall]

I’m thinking it’s more likely that the Marine contingent onboard the Kininurs are fully BD as they are more special ops pull Imperial personnel out/cut head of snake/defeat pirates fast sort of subsector break glass asset. Having the meanest toughest rats in the little barrel pays off benefits in hitting a problem fast and early without full CruDiv/marine task force deployment.

The black globe also fits the mission profile- nothing is out there, holy cow where did that come from marines are already dropping on us!!!!

 

[Grav_Moped]

I’m thinking it’s more likely that the Marine contingent onboard the Kininurs are fully BD as they are more special ops pull Imperial personnel out/cut head of snake/defeat pirates fast sort of subsector break glass asset.

Especially given what the Kinunir class was meant to be, when it was written up -- a Book 5 ship in a Book 2 universe, bigger and meaner than anything that players had seen before.

Mind you, once you realized that Book 5 meant Azhanti's were possible and then Tigresses, the Kinunirs became escorts at best. But for a short while there... yeah.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Azhanti's were possible and then Tigresses

BCS.

the Kinunirs became escorts at best.

The Kinunir was about as big of an ACS as you could get. 45 crew plus 35 marines was something of a stretch for a PC to command, but it wasn't so impossibly huge as to be unthinkable. You could imagine what commanding a Kinunir ought to be like.

30k+ Light Cruisers on up out of LBB S9?
Not so much ...