A Different Approach for Marines

[Diveguy]

Over the years the "Marine" career path has come to represent a group of elite troops within various Traveller campaigns, with battledress suited figures serving as shock troops during planetary invasions or fierce shipboard battles. In particular, "traditional" Imperium-based settings view the Marines as being those forces most loyal to the Emperor, and often relegating "Army" troops to mercenary units or second-string planetary forces raised under local flags. Part of this stems from the interpretation of the British Royal Marines and the United States Marine Corps, with their varied traditions and roles on Earth in present day. Another part has come from using "Marines" as the equivalent to "Imperial Stormtroopers" in one way or another in many settings, or Heinlein's "Mobile Infantry" for those so inclined.

I'm certainly not faulting this use in game settings, and have taken advantage of it myself over the years as both ref and player for material. Neither am I trying to belittle the esprit de corps that such history brings to games, or that players may feel from their own experiences.

BUT... what if we looked at things differently? NOTE - as a conceit for this write up, I am ONLY referring to the rules as per the "original LBB" set, and not bringing in Book 4, or T5, or Cepheus Engine or whatever. Take it for what it's worth. I also do not in any way claim to be the only one who has thought of, or addressed this over time - plenty of other threads here have gone with their own interpretations.

After all, for many other nations here on Earth "marine" type units are no more elite than any other troops - they simply have a maritime/shipboard focus. And, the number of nations capable of fielding a force for amphibious invasions of another is actually quite small.▮

Comparably, let's see what LBB-1 says on the subject:

"Marines: Members of the armed fighting forces carried aboard starships. Marines deal with piracy and boarding actions in space, defend the starports and bases belonging to the navy, and supplement other ground forces such as the army."▮​

Hmmm... not exactly the description of "the most feared force in the galaxy" by any stretch...

What about skills and character creation as per LBB-1? When comparing "Marine" and "Army" career paths, some interesting things stand out in my review. Such as:

• Marines reward Intelligence and Education more than the Army (bonuses to Enlistment and Commission), and tend to be socially "higher" in standing (bonus to Promotion,▮+2 SOC vice▮+1 on benefit tables for high rank.)
  
• Marines are more likely to remain in a starfaring lifestyle post-service (TAS Membership).
  
• Marine skills emphasize close combat (Blade Combat multiple entries, plus default Blade and Revolver skills) and shipboard fighting (Zero G); but do NOT have a chance for Forward Observer. By implication this means that Marine troops are not routinely used with Ortillery support, or attached Artillery batteries.

So, where does this lead us? Actually with some great play potential, particularly if you like campaigns with the "Age of Sail" isolation motif - the whole LBB conceit caused by jump travel times and distances, and the implied independence this brings.

Rather than some massive interstellar force, capable of conquering worlds and subjecting populations to Imperial decree, the Marines are exactly what their description says: shipboard/port troops to support Navy operations and function as a supplement to other forces. In this, we can certainly hearken back to the Age of Sail, where the Marine detachment aboard a ship may be the only effective fighting force they have. In this milieu we can picture them more as a "heavily armed Coast Guard" type military organization, rather than shock troops. They are generally limited to the small arms carried aboard ship, or provided for port defense, rather than grav tanks and battle suits.▮

Additionally,▮think back to that sailing ship and history - and the role playing opportunity this could provide. In many locations that “Lieutenant of Marines” carried aboard some patrol vessel might be viewed as the ranking representative of whatever government he represents to a colony/subject world. Whether it’s entering into negotiations and initial treaties, conducting field courts-martial or trials under Imperial law, or keeping some trooper’s faux pas from starting a war, it all falls on one set of shoulders rather than some functionary weeks or months away. This would certainly match the implication of the INT/EDU/SOC numbers from character creation - Marine officers are EXPECTED to act independently of central authority, to make sound judgements, and would be looked upon as “better” as a result of that.

Personally, I find this potential a lot more interesting than the massive “Imperial Marines in troop carriers” motif which is more common. Now it's less, "How many vehicles does a Marine Lift Regiment have?" and more "If a destroyer has 26 troops, how many will the Captain let go galivanting off without feeling he's unprotected?" It lets us think about piracy, smuggling, and border skirmishes in a whole new way - one more in flavor with an isolated colonial area than an established core region. Maybe this will give someone else some similar thoughts.

 

[RandyB]

Battle Dress is still implied by the acquisition of Vacc Suit skill by Marines (and Navy, Scouts, and Merchants as well) (emphasis mine):

The individual has been trained, and has experience, in the use of the standard vacuum suit (space suit), including armored battle dress and suits for use on various planetary surfaces in the presence of exotic, corrosive or insidious atmospheres.

Marines also have Vehicle. Also, even Army lacks Gunnery, which skill is specifically defined as pertaining to starship weaponry, with a note about its use for "similar weapons mounted on ATVs or air/rafts". LBB-1 has no skill for artillery as such.

Also, Navy does have Forward Observer, which allows for the attachment of a Naval Forward Observer to Marine detachments for calling in ortillery - which also has historic precedent.

It can definitely be fun to think of the Marines as you described them. But LBB-1 is not limited to either your model, or to the later "overwhelming fist of the Imperium" model. It can cover either one, and possibly other models besides. Chalk another one up to the broad flexibility of the LBBs!

 

[Diveguy]

Battle Dress is still implied by the acquisition of Vacc Suit skill by Marines (and Navy, Scouts, and Merchants as well) (emphasis mine):


Marines also have Vehicle. Also, even Army lacks Gunnery, which skill is specifically defined as pertaining to starship weaponry, with a note about its use for "similar weapons mounted on ATVs or air/rafts". LBB-1 has no skill for artillery as such.

Also, Navy does have Forward Observer, which allows for the attachment of a Naval Forward Observer to Marine detachments for calling in ortillery - which also has historic precedent.

It can definitely be fun to think of the Marines as you described them. But LBB-1 is not limited to either your model, or to the later "overwhelming fist of the Imperium" model. It can cover either one, and possibly other models besides. Chalk another one up to the broad flexibility of the LBBs!

Good points on yours, thanks for chiming in. And I certainly wasn't trying to imply mine was *the* way - just a *different* way, as food for thought.

As for the skill bits, I was certainly extrapolating just from the two services & not throwing Navy into the mix. Just as a thought exercise.

This is an example of where more/fewer skills starts to raise issues - because then everyone wants to define "what I can do" by what the skills say, not by background/roleplaying. BUT, it also doesn't give you clear answers, as you said. LBB-1 doesn't have an extensive list if you limit yourself to that (feature, not a bug IMHO). You look at T5/Cepheus/Mercenary/High Guard etc & the skill list gets huge - BUT then you run into niche issues. Particularly if all rolls/skills are random, as per the "straight" rules.

My games I've enjoyed better having a smaller skill list and letting the players extrapolate from that and their developed background what else it may cover. But that's just me.

 

[McPerth]

What about skills and character creation as per LBB-1? When comparing "Marine" and "Army" career paths, some interesting things stand out in my review. Such as:

• Marines reward Intelligence and Education more than the Army (bonuses to Enlistment and Commission), and tend to be socially "higher" in standing (bonus to Promotion,▮+2 SOC vice▮+1 on benefit tables for high rank.)
  
• Marines are more likely to remain in a starfaring lifestyle post-service (TAS Membership).
  
• Marine skills emphasize close combat (Blade Combat multiple entries, plus default Blade and Revolver skills) and shipboard fighting (Zero G); but do NOT have a chance for Forward Observer. By implication this means that Marine troops are not routinely used with Ortillery support, or attached Artillery batteries.

Just some points here:

• While you're right on the Stats DMs, you forgot that while survival DM in Marines depends on Endurance, in the Army it depends on Intelligence. I don't see END as the main stat to survive shipboard actions...
• IIRC the Zero-G skill appears in LBB4 (something you dismissed for your reasoning), while in LBB1 (or at least in TTB, that is what I've been checking), the only skill differences are favoring vacc-suit (I guess that's what you meant) and blade combat in contrast with Forward observer and air-raft in the Army.
• (you didn't talk about this one) The higher numbers for commission and promotion in the Marines makes me think in a less officer heavy corps, while the lower reenlist number in a (slightly) longer stay in the corps, so a (again slightly) more veteran average. Not sure of the meaning this might have.

 

[Duke Craig]

Wow, back to LBB 1, interesting thread, thanks.

The higher commission and promotion checks for the Marines as per Book 1, makes me think of smaller units with less officers, mostly in command positions; compared with Army which makes me think of large units with many officers, few in command and many staff.

So that fits with ship board troops where a Marine Officer, whose rank depends on the unit size, is commanding enlisted marines. I certainly agree with Diveguy's treatment of the Marine Officers as more autonomous and with access to greater resources as befitting their Int/Edu and Soc requirements.

The Imperial Marines are certainly Battledress clad and highly technologically capable with the ultimate weapons (i.e. Infantry with gauss weapons with FGMP support).

However, a sizable proportion of Space faring Marines would also be Vacc-Suit Clad and using Zero-G Weaps or Laser weaps for the advantages that they bring whereas the Army would be using rifles, assault rifles and eventually, ACRs with Laser support Weapons. I would suspect that few Armies would evolve to using Gauss Weapons perhaps due to the prohibitive comparative costs and the availability of Cavalry such as Grav tanks mounting Plasma or Fusion guns at higher tech etc..

However, the Endurance requirement for Marine survival compared with the Army Education survival requirement, suggests that Marines more often find themselves in difficult situations. You are free to take from that what you will. To me that suggests that Marines are more likely to have to rub together two sticks and a rock to survive, indeed the vast area of space wherein the marine requires some high degree of physical fortitude just to leap from one ship to board another; whereas the Army has the giant juggernaught behind them and more have to fit into the machine. Again agreeing with Diveguy's surmise.
Lets face it a shipbourne life is far more complex environment than a ground based existance any way you cut it, even at perhaps high stellar tech.

Incidentally, I have long wondered why LLB1 Marines get +2 Int and +1 Edu and vice versa for Army. Perhaps there is the answer... Thanks.
Finally, I think the Lieutenant of Marines will send as many troops as is ordered by his superior officer, the Ship's Captain and what he thinks it will take to to get the military objective achieved.

Enjoy!

 

[Condottiere]

Marines can be anything you want.

But the Imperium Marines are basically a transplanted United States Marine Corps; add-on powered armour, similar to that unlucky squad in Aliens.

 

[wellis]

Marines can be anything you want.

But the Imperium Marines are basically a transplanted United States Marine Corps; add-on powered armour, similar to that unlucky squad in Aliens.

So they're more of a secondary Army with their own ships and transports to act as first responders?

 

[mike wightman]

So they're more of a secondary Army with their own ships and transports to act as first responders?

In the OTU no, the ISM are carried aboard IN ships as ship's troops and a rapid reaction force.

The regular Imperial Army provides the vast majority of Imperial planetary based war fighters.


There are a couple of things to remember:
the character generation tables in LBB1 do not accurately reflect the setting of the 3I without fudging;
the ISM are not the USMC in space - they are part of the IN in much the same way as the UK RMC are part of the RN.

 

[kilemall]

I'm with the OP's interpretation, wth the caveat that Marines would have a specialty the Army is not really suited for- the boarding and control of space stations, facilities, belter mines, in short vacc-related operations similar to ship boarding.

Only the US operates marine divisions, and in practical terms the vast majority of marine ops today are with much smaller subunits.

Hmm, which perhaps illuminates a point- Marines in a Traveller sense would also likely be the embassy/starport control troops for rapid deployment and support to Imperial facilities or the functional equivalents.

As such they may not be capable of taking on a whole planet in rebellion or major operation, but be called upon to do evacuations or security to limited areas where they can be overwhelmed, but often act as a dissuading force brake against shenanigans because the price will be too high.

 

[RandyB]

I'm with the OP's interpretation, wth the caveat that Marines would have a specialty the Army is not really suited for- the boarding and control of space stations, facilities, belter mines, in short vacc-related operations similar to ship boarding.

Only the US operates marine divisions, and in practical terms the vast majority of marine ops today are with much smaller subunits.

Hmm, which perhaps illuminates a point- Marines in a Traveller sense would also likely be the embassy/starport control troops for rapid deployment and support to Imperial facilities or the functional equivalents.

As such they may not be capable of taking on a whole planet in rebellion or major operation, but be called upon to do evacuations or security to limited areas where they can be overwhelmed, but often act as a dissuading force brake against shenanigans because the price will be too high.

A strong corollary, mentioned in the OP, is that LBB-1 Marines would operate in smaller units than their Army counterparts. This would explain the lower promotion rates, as smaller units would have fewer officers. Plus, if the LBB-1 Navy is providing most of the supporting roles (like the Navy Forward Observer I suggested above), the Marines tooth-to-tail ratio would be high, which would also allow fewer officers in an operational force.

This also matches up well with the shipboard- and bases-focused role as stated in LBB-1, and the "specialized in vacc boarding operations" suggested here.

 

[McPerth]

Curiously, those same facts may also lead to diferent conclusions:

As for the mimicking the USMC, IIRC it began as anti-mutinies and boarding troops, and only the fact there were no mutinies and the boarding was no longuer a usual thing made them to look for new roles, becoming what they are now. If we asume the setting to be akin age of sail, their role could well be the original one...

As for the fact the army has many more officers (lower promotion and commission numbers), it may mean a tail heavy army, or a cadres and huscarles one, where most members are officers because they expect to be boosted by local (or reserve) troops when needed, so bringng the OB to full with enlisted men, and while not at full readiness being only officer cadres. This is (IMHO) also supported by the high reenlistment number...

As for the Marines numbers being higher, of course this means a tail light Corps, after all most staff roles are already covered in the ship they are in, so having them will be a useless duplication, but I guess if most marine units were small, being out of contact of their superiors, they will be commanded by an officer, so making it an officer heavy corps, not an officer light one.

If most marine units were small, commanded by an NCO and in board of ships, how long wil the stay as independent corps, having most their units subject to Navy officers (as they will be out of touch of their own ones)? That is another reason to believe most of the would be commanded by an officer, if only just to maintain the facade of independency.

So, again IMHO, the fact they are so officer light may mean their units are at higher readiness state than the Army ones, and so have a lower officer to enlisted ratio (and when the lack of staff offciers is added, this just becomes more true).

Again, the fact they have (slightly) easier reenlistment means that they expect troops to stay for longuer, meaning an elite unit (or at least a crack one), formed mainly by more veteran troops. OTOH, due to how skills are adquired in CT Chargen, being officer light means less skills, something against an elite unit (but then, this comaprison would only work for officers, as the Army enlisted men would have a similar number of skills).

 

[Condottiere]

If you assume there's a five thousand man combined arms regimental combat team assigned to each fleet, that still stretched pretty thin.

On the bright side, they aren't Space Marines.

GURPS went specific on an institution that was previously vaguely described; but the trope remains, when the Marines turn up, that Act of the scenario is over.

 

[aramis]

Curiously, those same facts may also lead to diferent conclusions:

As for the mimicking the USMC, IIRC it began as anti-mutinies and boarding troops, and only the fact there were no mutinies and the boarding was no longuer a usual thing made them to look for new roles, becoming what they are now. If we asume the setting to be akin age of sail, their role could well be the original one...

The USMC never had an anti-mutiny role, at least not a documentable one.

They provided dockside security, boarding troops, and specialized naval infantry; they were, until around the korean war, usually supplemented with the "naval infantry" - the mixture of botswain's mates and gunner's mates, and seamen of all grades in deck and gunnery, plus a handful of corpsmen.

Most USN ships could be run with under 1/2 the standard crewing; the other half were sacrificial naval infantry.
Marines were usually 1/3 to 1/5 of the total landing force.

During WW II, many larger formations were established as the MEU concept takes hold.

During WW II, marine aviation was supposed to be troop support, but many wound up being forward deployed air superiority, instead, as in the Solomon Islands campaign.

The major theoretical role is to be "First in", and then followed by the Army, but the latter half of that hasn't happened much.

The Traveller role, as exemplified in the tables for CT and MT, and in the CT games, for marines is a mix of port security forces for the ships, away mission grunts (ala red shirts in Star Trek), and rapid reaction forces, drop capable - but not all in battle dress. The "all marines in BD" thing is a Loren-ism, one not supported by CT, MT, nor T4 rules. The 8 marine regiments for the 5FW are all grav units, and are not noted as jump troops; in fact, the one reference to Marines arriving on planet is via shuttles. Likewise, in AHL, we see a mix of BD and non-BD marines in the countermix.

Book 4 uses them for...
Raid, Counter Insurgency, Internal Security, Ship's Troops, Garrison, Police Action.
It provides 4 arms: Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, and Commando.
Battle dress is available, but not automatic.
Basic Training does not provide Vacc Suit at any level; 1/6 of TL12+ (including Imperial) Marines get Battledress, but 1/3 get Zero-G. Sounds more like boarding troops and ship security.
Marine Commando's are equally likely to get Battledress, IE, not very.

MT core didn't change the rules, but errata in TD gives marines BD 0. Every Marine is thus Trained in BD.

 

[Diveguy]

Just some points here:

• While you're right on the Stats DMs, you forgot that while survival DM in Marines depends on Endurance, in the Army it depends on Intelligence. I don't see END as the main stat to survive shipboard actions...
• IIRC the Zero-G skill appears in LBB4 (something you dismissed for your reasoning), while in LBB1 (or at least in TTB, that is what I've been checking), the only skill differences are favoring vacc-suit (I guess that's what you meant) and blade combat in contrast with Forward observer and air-raft in the Army.
• (you didn't talk about this one) The higher numbers for commission and promotion in the Marines makes me think in a less officer heavy corps, while the lower reenlist number in a (slightly) longer stay in the corps, so a (again slightly) more veteran average. Not sure of the meaning this might have.

Ugh - you're absolutely right - it *was* Vacc Suit - I'm working through a head cold and meds, which is my only excuse for the typo. Thanks.
Good points on the commission/promotion, reenlistment numbers.

 

[Diveguy]

The USMC never had an anti-mutiny role, at least not a documentable one.

They provided dockside security, boarding troops, and specialized naval infantry; they were, until around the korean war, usually supplemented with the "naval infantry" - the mixture of botswain's mates and gunner's mates, and seamen of all grades in deck and gunnery, plus a handful of corpsmen.

Most USN ships could be run with under 1/2 the standard crewing; the other half were sacrificial naval infantry.
Marines were usually 1/3 to 1/5 of the total landing force.

During WW II, many larger formations were established as the MEU concept takes hold.

During WW II, marine aviation was supposed to be troop support, but many wound up being forward deployed air superiority, instead, as in the Solomon Islands campaign.

The major theoretical role is to be "First in", and then followed by the Army, but the latter half of that hasn't happened much.

The Traveller role, as exemplified in the tables for CT and MT, and in the CT games, for marines is a mix of port security forces for the ships, away mission grunts (ala red shirts in Star Trek), and rapid reaction forces, drop capable - but not all in battle dress. The "all marines in BD" thing is a Loren-ism, one not supported by CT, MT, nor T4 rules. The 8 marine regiments for the 5FW are all grav units, and are not noted as jump troops; in fact, the one reference to Marines arriving on planet is via shuttles. Likewise, in AHL, we see a mix of BD and non-BD marines in the countermix.

Book 4 uses them for...
Raid, Counter Insurgency, Internal Security, Ship's Troops, Garrison, Police Action.
It provides 4 arms: Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, and Commando.
Battle dress is available, but not automatic.
Basic Training does not provide Vacc Suit at any level; 1/6 of TL12+ (including Imperial) Marines get Battledress, but 1/3 get Zero-G. Sounds more like boarding troops and ship security.
Marine Commando's are equally likely to get Battledress, IE, not very.

MT core didn't change the rules, but errata in TD gives marines BD 0. Every Marine is thus Trained in BD.

Thanks for chiming in sir - a couple of notes I'll add:

#1 - At numerous points in the history of the US there have been pushes to eliminate the Marine Corps, or to simply roll them back into Navy/Army units. Notably, it was the development of amphibious landing capabilities and the Marine role in these efforts - in particular their true "proof of concept" in the Pacific campaigns of WW 2 which really prevented this. Plus, while the Marines have traditionally taken back seat in the budget and power fights of the DOD administration, they probably have the best "word of mouth" PR of any of the services. Which never hurts. Folks could incorporate that into their TU as well.

#2 - Thank you for the Book 4 analysis - and pointing out the "Loren-ism" of BD clad Marines. I think it's just like Psionics taking hold, every Naval force being "High Guard" level starships, and the like - folks sure have added a lot over the years which isn't actually supported by the base numbers. Of course, it's all up to what people choose to play the game as. One of the beauties of it all.

 

[BlackBat242]

The widening of the role of the US Marines really began in WW1, when they were expected to provide units to fight on the front (trench) lines (see Chateau-Thierry, Belleau Wood, etc).

Before that they were mainly ship's troops and foreign intervention units, present in relatively small numbers to train & lead local forces - such as Lt. Presley O'Bannon's mission in Egypt/Lybia in 1805 - the Lt., one Sgt, and six privates led a band of 500 mercenary and soldiers-of-fortune on a march to the port fortress of Derne in Tripoli (a march of some 3 month's duration). They then took the fortress and held it against repeated counter-attacks until a treaty was negotiated.
http://destroyerhistory.org/fletcherclass/ns_obannon/

Similar actions in Haiti, China, etc were common, until WW1 forced a massive enlarging of the Corps, and its use to supplement the US Army in mass field combat. The U.S. Marine Corps entered the war with 511 officers and 13,214 enlisted personnel, and by 11 November 1918 had reached a strength of 2,400 officers and 70,000 enlisted.

In the 1920s & 30s numbers dropped significantly, but not to the former levels, as Marines began to be used in more anti-guerilla operations, and began to develop the expertise in amphibious warfare that became their prime mission later on.


I like the emphasis on the "traditional" role for Marines in Traveller - ship's troops and small intervention forces.

I'll be sure to keep that focus in my Traveller universe - which is CT-based.

 

[kilemall]

One other thought- Marines at battle stations in full fleet combat might be used for another role-missile humpers to supplement the gunners.

Nothing in the rules or canon I ever read to support that function, just my reading of the probability of repelling/away boarders action vs. feeding the insatiable sandcaster/missile racks.

 

[McPerth]

One other thought- Marines at battle stations in full fleet combat might be used for another role-missile humpers to supplement the gunners.

Nothing in the rules or canon I ever read to support that function, just my reading of the probability of repelling/away boarders action vs. feeding the insatiable sandcaster/missile racks.

Canon says that in 3i (so outside this discussion proper) the marines act also as gunners in combat:

AHL incident II: Perficious Zodani:

By tradition, a part of the armament of a ship is manned by its Marine contingent.

This is not supported by the skill selection of the Marines in LBB1 (ot TTB), but it is by LBB4, where they can easily achieve gunnery skill (1/3 possibility in shipboard table).

 

[aramis]

The widening of the role of the US Marines really began in WW1, when they were expected to provide units to fight on the front (trench) lines (see Chateau-Thierry, Belleau Wood, etc).

Before that they were mainly ship's troops and foreign intervention units, [...]

Their role as "ship's troops" was not, by training nor doctrine, to replace the naval infantry, nor to be the sum total of them, until after WW II, according to the Corps' own historians. It was to be the elite of the NI, and the bulk of the full-time NI. (Masters at Arms were likewise the shore patrol leadership, not the bulk of the shore patrol staffing, and were the SNCO's of the landed NI's naval troops.)

 

[Condottiere]

The formula was either one security personnel per kilotonne, or any number of marines.

For a more modern understanding, Marines are Stormtroopers.