A Different Approach for Marines

[Condottiere]

Ranks tend to be based on Anglo Saxon conventions.

It would easy to substitute [unit] commander or leader.

I always played with the idea of a six man squad, commanded by a Sixer, assisted by a Seconder.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Not the USMC in space again

(Dredging up old poo and throwing it)

I have always viewed the Imperial Marines as the Royal Marine Commandos due to size, mission and training standards.

I think when we talk about marines or naval infantry I would encourage others to look at other earth historical forces. Not just for organization, but look at the way each national force executes its operational profile, trains, traditions, etc.

examples being:
- Imperial Japanese Navy - Special Naval Landing Force
- Russian Navy - Naval Infantry ( Black Berets and beatnik stripped shirts)
- French Commando Marine & Fusilier Marins ( the Commandos are bad ass I have worked with them)
- the Dutch and British Royal Marines are almost synonymous. (FYI the Royal Marine Commando course is 33 weeks long with a high attrition rate)

Anyway my two cents... I think if you parallel the USMC you may as well drop edu and intel bonus and invoke the curse of the Green Winnie.

 

[Timerover51]

The Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces were closer to a U.S. Marine Defense Battalion than a standard Marine Battalion Landing Team. They did have a couple of rifle companies, but they also had a fairly large heavy weapons unit as well, along with support units. The unit that was to land at Midway was actually an army regiment trained in amphibious warfare. That was the force that the Marines pretty well wiped out at the Battle of the Tenaru River in August of 1942.

For those interested, you can find the Handbook on Japanese Military Forces at archive.org.

 

[Diveguy]

Thanks for the resurrection. Your interpretation isn't *that* far off from where I was going, in that the shipboard marines are more a specialized force than an invading/occupying military element.

Appreciate your thoughts.

(Dredging up old poo and throwing it)

I have always viewed the Imperial Marines as the Royal Marine Commandos due to size, mission and training standards.

I think when we talk about marines or naval infantry I would encourage others to look at other earth historical forces. Not just for organization, but look at the way each national force executes its operational profile, trains, traditions, etc.

examples being:
- Imperial Japanese Navy - Special Naval Landing Force
- Russian Navy - Naval Infantry ( Black Berets and beatnik stripped shirts)
- French Commando Marine & Fusilier Marins ( the Commandos are bad ass I have worked with them)
- the Dutch and British Royal Marines are almost synonymous. (FYI the Royal Marine Commando course is 33 weeks long with a high attrition rate)

Anyway my two cents... I think if you parallel the USMC you may as well drop edu and intel bonus and invoke the curse of the Green Winnie.

 

[Enoki]

The Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces were closer to a U.S. Marine Defense Battalion than a standard Marine Battalion Landing Team. They did have a couple of rifle companies, but they also had a fairly large heavy weapons unit as well, along with support units. The unit that was to land at Midway was actually an army regiment trained in amphibious warfare. That was the force that the Marines pretty well wiped out at the Battle of the Tenaru River in August of 1942.

For those interested, you can find the Handbook on Japanese Military Forces at archive.org.

The SNLF at the beginning of the Pacific war were simply naval infantry battalions composed of sailors seconded to be infantry. As WW 2 progressed, they gained more heavy weapons and such becoming base / island defense forces of roughly battalion size.
They were in no way elite or specially trained for their mission.

The Ichiki detachment you mention were simply IJA infantry that were designated for landing at Midway and when that operation failed, they were sent to Guadalcanal and wiped out. Their only "elitness" was the unit had previous combat experience in China and was supposedly extremely good in combat by IJA estimates.

As for Imperial Marines in Traveller, I see them as pre- WW 2 US Marines or closer to Royal Marines. That is, they're true naval infantry. They're not used in huge numbers normally. Their purpose is to defend the ship if boarded, and to stomp on the natives, so-to-speak, if they get uppity in some system. If they need heavy weapons, some of the ship's crew is assigned to man those to support them.

Equipment-wise, they would have power armor and weapons suitable mostly for a fight in space and ZG. If they have to land, they use the same weapons, or are issued ones suitable for the world they'll operate on.

I don't see them operating in divisions and corps. That's what the Imperial Army is for. The Imperial Marines aren't the cannon fodder the Army is. They are better trained and equipped with expensive weapons and personal armor systems.

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm, FFW and IE would be the CT guideline as to Marines at War for the OTU wouldn't it?


Hmm, FFW counter mix says regiments and battalions, IE has all regiments except for 1 division.


So, up to division is possible, regiment standard, battalions out in less populated regions, and very sparse relative to army in both number of units and absolute manpower.


These are of course total war situations with all manpower scraped up from secondary duties. I would postulate that this is your base organizational units for ground/assault duty, usually on detached duty in subunits, and perhaps a like or larger number on duty onboard the ships in both war and peace.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Hmmm, FFW and IE would be the CT guideline as to Marines at War for the OTU wouldn't it?


Hmm, FFW counter mix says regiments and battalions, IE has all regiments except for 1 division.


So, up to division is possible, regiment standard, battalions out in less populated regions, and very sparse relative to army in both number of units and absolute manpower.


These are of course total war situations with all manpower scraped up from secondary duties. I would postulate that this is your base organizational units for ground/assault duty, usually on detached duty in subunits, and perhaps a like or larger number on duty onboard the ships in both war and peace.

Don’t forget there was a JTAS #12 article on the Imperial Marine Task Force for reference ...

 

[Rerednaw]

I tend to visualize the Marines as Mobile Infantry (from the Heinlein novella), the MACOs from Star Trek, or of course Cameron's Colonial Marines from Aliens. Space-based drop troops and elite forces deployed into hot zones (or used in boarding actions ship to ship etc.)

Army is more like planetary-bound defense. But that's just how I run things in my default setting.

 

[BlackBat242]

I tend to visualize the Marines as Mobile Infantry (from the Heinlein novella), the MACOs from Star Trek, or of course Cameron's Colonial Marines from Aliens. Space-based drop troops and elite forces deployed into hot zones (or used in boarding actions ship to ship etc.)

Army is more like planetary-bound defense. But that's just how I run things in my default setting.

Army is also long-term occupation/pacification forces.

 

[jec10]

Army is also long-term occupation/pacification forces.

Army is a lot more than that in FFW and I:E boardgames. Essential to any offensive operations as Marines/Huscarles/Mercs far too light and limited to undertake any sustained offensive combat in a hot war against a near-peer adversary.

When I play FFW, Marines/Huscarles/Mercs are either defending out-of-the-way systems against low-tech adversaries like Swordies and Vargr where their tech advantage counts or loaded up on cruisers and sent raiding into the Neutral Zone and Outworld Coalition rear areas.

 

[Carlobrand]

If the Marines are under Navy command, which they seem to be, then they give the Navy a quick and effective way to project power to ground with more finesse than can be managed with missiles targeted from orbit. In that role, they need to avoid long term commitments since they need to be kept available for future missions. The Army would be used when there is a need for a long term commitment of large-scale forces. Engaging the Army for a mission would not be a quick process since there'd need to be coordination and planning between the two branches, including planning for long-term supply, replacement of casualties and damaged equipment over extended operations, and so forth. So you use the Marines when you need someone there yesterday, and you use the Army when you still expect to need someone there six months from now.

 

[Diveguy]

If the Marines are under Navy command, which they seem to be, then they give the Navy a quick and effective way to project power to ground with more finesse than can be managed with missiles targeted from orbit. In that role, they need to avoid long term commitments since they need to be kept available for future missions. The Army would be used when there is a need for a long term commitment of large-scale forces. Engaging the Army for a mission would not be a quick process since there'd need to be coordination and planning between the two branches, including planning for long-term supply, replacement of casualties and damaged equipment over extended operations, and so forth. So you use the Marines when you need someone there yesterday, and you use the Army when you still expect to need someone there six months from now.

This is a key point, and an element of how such units would be equipped. As well as the skill tables and other things discussed. "Marines" as such in this view are the "Go in, break things, and show the locals we aren't **$*ing around," versus the Army being "Let's help keep a stable government, support free trade and the like."

 

[Black Vulmea]

The "all marines in BD" thing is a Loren-ism, one not supported by CT, MT, nor T4 rules. The 8 marine regiments for the 5FW are all grav units, and are not noted as jump troops; in fact, the one reference to Marines arriving on planet is via shuttles. Likewise, in AHL, we see a mix of BD and non-BD marines in the countermix.

Hmmm, FFW and IE would be the CT guideline as to Marines at War for the OTU wouldn't it?

Hmm, FFW counter mix says regiments and battalions, IE has all regiments except for 1 division.

Right, Imperial Marines are a small reaction force, though if FFW is our guide, they are uniformly at the leading edge of technology: all marine units are TL 15, while the Imperial Army has a mix of TL 14 and 15 troops.

IMTU, Imperial Marines and provincial navy 'space soldiers' - marines, legionaries, naval infantry, or whatever the local designation is for their space troops - are generated using Book 4, while planetary navy 'space soldiers' are generated using Book 1.

 

[McPerth]

I'm not sure FFW is a good source for the Maries, as only 2 of its 8 regiments (huscarles aside) are elite, while the Imperial Marines at large are considered an elite force by most sources.

I guess this is a game artifact to allow them to be replaced (as elite forces cannot be in FFW), not a representation that only about 25% of the Imperial Marines can be considered elite.

 

[aramis]

I'm not sure FFW is a good source for the Maries, as only 2 of its 8 regiments (huscarles aside) are elite, while the Imperial Marines at large are considered an elite force by most sources.

I guess this is a game artifact to allow them to be replaced (as elite forces cannot be in FFW), not a representation that only about 25% of the Imperial Marines can be considered elite.

There are several meanings for "elite"...

 

[Black Vulmea]

I'm not sure FFW is a good source for the Maries, as only 2 of its 8 regiments (huscarles aside) are elite, while the Imperial Marines at large are considered an elite force by most sources.

I think that's the point some of us are trying to make: marines are not uniformly 'elite' troops across the whole of the Imperium, at least in the early canon - they train for different specialties than other warriors, adapting them to missions in the hostile environment of space, but that doesn't make them 'elite' vis-à-vis every other Imperial or planetary soldier.

As support for that, I would note that, per Book 4, marines may train as commandos the same as other soldiers, and then are eligible to serve in commando units. Given the Commando School skill package and that only experienced soldiers and marines are eligible to serve, I would argue that commando units are elite units; one could then argue that the two elite Imperial Marine units in FFW are, or include, commando formations. This also fits the idea that the elite units cannot be replaced during the game - commando units aren't filled from your average repple-depple.

 

[Condottiere]

Sometimes, it's a matter of degrees.

Paratroop units tend to be elite, because they used to be selected from what could be considered potential non commissioned officer personnel.

The difference between Imperium Marine units, assuming everything else is equal, would be combat experience, general skill levels, and morale, meaning ones designated as elite would fight harder, better and longer.

 

[Carlobrand]

This is a key point, and an element of how such units would be equipped. As well as the skill tables and other things discussed. "Marines" as such in this view are the "Go in, break things, and show the locals we aren't **$*ing around," versus the Army being "Let's help keep a stable government, support free trade and the like."

Yeah, I like that.