A Different Approach for Marines

[wellis]

Their role as "ship's troops" was not, by training nor doctrine, to replace the naval infantry, nor to be the sum total of them, until after WW II, according to the Corps' own historians. It was to be the elite of the NI, and the bulk of the full-time NI. (Masters at Arms were likewise the shore patrol leadership, not the bulk of the shore patrol staffing, and were the SNCO's of the landed NI's naval troops.)

How is it currently done in the US Navy?

 

[McPerth]

The 8 marine regiments for the 5FW are all grav units, and are not noted as jump troops; in fact, the one reference to Marines arriving on planet is via shuttles. Likewise, in AHL, we see a mix of BD and non-BD marines in the countermix.

Neither are most of them noted as elite units (only two of those regiment are)...

OTOH, in IE! they are considered jump troops (or at least they avoid the DM for anti-landing fire), while again only 2 regiments of their 5 regiments and a division are elite...

I guess what is called jump troops in those games do not really mean jump, but trained for being the first it, be it through capsules or through ships. The true jump troops (capsules) would be more the equivalent to paratroopers, while the Marines would be more likely to land on shuttles (or vehicles).

But all of this is 3I and LBB4...

 

[Condottiere]

Jump troops are paratroop equivalents.

Undoubtedly, special forces Marine equivalents have that capability, especially Recon.

But a mass jump, assuming that's actually feasible, would be something the Army does.

 

[BwapTED]

I've been thinking of doing Marines along these lines:


breachman= Marine in battle dress, the first man through the breach in a boarding party. Armed with a heavy cutlass and pistol-gripped automatic shotgun

raiders= cutlasses and body armor of some sort, firearms as appropriate to the mission

LT= fancy dial-a-round snub gun (revolver) and tasseled, gold-chased cutlass

corpsman= shield bot with dragline/hooks attached
medkit
snub gun
surgical multitool, doubles as blade


etc.

 

[BwapTED]

Maybe Marines are feared not for being super-elite troops but because they routinely hack people to bloody chunks with their cutlasses.

''They don't like it up 'em!"

Some units might collect heads, hands, trigger fingers...

 

[kilemall]

Here's a thought for Marine independence while maintaining officer lite.


Through that grand military mechanism- tradition.


Could be that by tradition the Naval Ship's leader is Captain and treated as such in an acting rank capacity, even if he's really a Lieutenant.



Similarly, the Marine leader on a ship is Commander even if a Sergeant, reports to the Captain but otherwise is not normally subordinate to any other Naval officer or petty officer.


And in a boarding fight or other such 'Naval Infantry' operation, the Marine Commander could be in charge of naval personnel that normally out rank him.

 

[kilemall]

Maybe Marines are feared not for being super-elite troops but because they routinely hack people to bloody chunks with their cutlasses.

''They don't like it up 'em!"

Some units might collect heads, hands, trigger fingers...

I believe the US Marines did some brutal things to the Moros to put down that rebellion.


I think the LBB-1 treatment also shows that the Marines should be regarded as a shoestring problem solving outfit, whereas the Army is more studious and educated in it's approach to war and winning it.


The Marines are likely to do things the Kirk way, the Army the Picard way.

 

[BlackBat242]

Here's a thought for Marine independence while maintaining officer lite.


Through that grand military mechanism- tradition.


Could be that by tradition the Naval Ship's leader is Captain and treated as such in an acting rank capacity, even if he's really a Lieutenant.



Similarly, the Marine leader on a ship is Commander even if a Sergeant, reports to the Captain but otherwise is not normally subordinate to any other Naval officer or petty officer.


And in a boarding fight or other such 'Naval Infantry' operation, the Marine Commander could be in charge of naval personnel that normally out rank him.

There is a "tradition" in Weber's Honorverse novels of the senior marine officer aboard having the courtesy rank of "Major" (equivalent of a full Commander in the Navy) in some circumstances.

 

[wellis]

Maybe Marines are feared not for being super-elite troops but because they routinely hack people to bloody chunks with their cutlasses.

''They don't like it up 'em!"

Some units might collect heads, hands, trigger fingers...

Sounds like something that would create very bad PR and drop them in hot water for desecration of the dead and possible violation of any warfare conventions.

 

[Major B]

Could be that by tradition the Naval Ship's leader is Captain and treated as such in an acting rank capacity, even if he's really a Lieutenant.

Similarly, the Marine leader on a ship is Commander even if a Sergeant, reports to the Captain but otherwise is not normally subordinate to any other Naval officer or petty officer.

In MTU and in the Gazelle book recently published I have covered a similar tradition. The ship commander, regardless of rank, is the Captain. His senior NCO is the Chief (even on small ships the senior NCO will often be an E7 or higher). The senior marine is called by his or her rank with no honorific but they report to both the Captain (for security functions) or their division chief (they usually also serve as gunners).

There is a "tradition" in Weber's Honorverse novels of the senior marine officer aboard having the courtesy rank of "Major" (equivalent of a full Commander in the Navy) in some circumstances.

I recall that from Pournelle's West of Honor too. Falkenberg is a Captain when the story starts but he is called Major by the Navy crewmen because there can only be one Captain aboard ship.

 

[Brandon C]

Sounds like something that would create very bad PR and drop them in hot water for desecration of the dead and possible violation of any warfare conventions.

Hot water with who? Their own government would clearly be condoning it.

If such marines board your free trader, they will gladly accept your terrified compliance.

 

[wellis]

Hot water with who? Their own government would clearly be condoning it.

If such marines board your free trader, they will gladly accept your terrified compliance.

Most civilians have such an idealized view on war that many little things in it are often shocking when shown on TV. Look at how shocked everyone was about the "Highway of Death" in the 1st Gulf War, despite the fact such a thing would be normal in war.

 

[hiro]

Most civilians have such an idealized view on war that many little things in it are often shocking when shown on TV. Look at how shocked everyone was about the "Highway of Death" in the 1st Gulf War, despite the fact such a thing would be normal in war.

Which would be true if we were setting our games today or in the near future. Push it forward to the far future and it can be whatever you want it to be.

 

[Diveguy]

A similar thing has been used in several games (and has Earth precedents), in which the leader of the Marine shipboard component is referred to as "Commander of Marines," or "Commander" - a rank which does not exist in formal Marine hierarchy, but is a positional title.

And, it is typical for certain situations for the ranking person of a component to have overall command of a situation, even if another officer involved may outrank him/her. For example - in air/ground support operations, the ground force commander has operational control, no matter the aircraft pilot/commander's rank. Similar procedures have been/are in place for things such as EOD operations, hostage rescues and the like.

Here's a thought for Marine independence while maintaining officer lite.


Through that grand military mechanism- tradition.


Could be that by tradition the Naval Ship's leader is Captain and treated as such in an acting rank capacity, even if he's really a Lieutenant.



Similarly, the Marine leader on a ship is Commander even if a Sergeant, reports to the Captain but otherwise is not normally subordinate to any other Naval officer or petty officer.


And in a boarding fight or other such 'Naval Infantry' operation, the Marine Commander could be in charge of naval personnel that normally out rank him.

 

[BlackBat242]

To get to an even smaller scale, back when the USN & USMC had enlisted pilots, it was common for an experienced Tech Sgt pilot to be PiC (Pilot in Command), with a less-experienced officer pilot having to follow the TSgt's orders as orders, not as suggestions - the officer could be disciplined or even court-martialed for disobeying the TSgt's orders!

 

[BwapTED]

Sounds like something that would create very bad PR and drop them in hot water for desecration of the dead and possible violation of any warfare conventions.

This fits if the Imperium or whatever other polity you are using is like a contemporary Western democratic state and has to conceal such actions committed by its agents, lest it face problems in the press and at the polls.

But is it?

It could be state controlled by an evil tyrant,like the Empire from star Wars. Or maybe it's more like the Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40 K.



Maybe a good number of far future people have ideas about how to treat dead bodies that would seem strange to us. Perhaps Marine head-hunting is something that causes some revulsion among the more sophisticated citizenry because it's a primitive custom that wastes perfectly good brains that ought to be placed in cyborg frames and put to work as laborers. Or processed into a special mind-altering drug, maybe.

Conventions--that's an interesting point, and one worthy of its own thread.

 

[BwapTED]

To get to an even smaller scale, back when the USN & USMC had enlisted pilots, it was common for an experienced Tech Sgt pilot to be PiC (Pilot in Command), with a less-experienced officer pilot having to follow the TSgt's orders as orders, not as suggestions - the officer could be disciplined or even court-martialed for disobeying the TSgt's orders!

Weird.
But it makes sense, given the context.

 

[hiro]

Over the years the "Marine" career path ... <snip>... Maybe this will give someone else some similar thoughts.

I like the idea as I think it works best with a small ship universe.

It also sets up for a PC still on active duty to have the freedom to role play rather than be tied to a chain of command. Once we get to larger ships with potentially thousands of marines, we're into the tactical/strategic realm which isn't really my cup of tea.

On the hardware front, I haven't referenced my LBBs for some time, can someone fill me in on the endurance of battle dress? If your marines are operating without a clear logistical support, the battery life on your BD might hamper operations and make a more energy independent set up a better fit.

 

[Brandon C]

On the hardware front, I haven't referenced my LBBs for some time, can someone fill me in on the endurance of battle dress? If your marines are operating without a clear logistical support, the battery life on your BD might hamper operations and make a more energy independent set up a better fit.

There is no battery life listed for BD in CT, although the air ranks are limited to six hours.

 

[hiro]

There is no battery life listed for BD in CT, although the air ranks are limited to six hours.

Open to interpretation but not ideal for lengthy forays away from your ship/home base.