A Hidden Pirate Base.....

[CosmicGamer]

For me, the universe, including the 3I version, is a big place and piracy certainly can exist somewhere in some form as determined by the GM. So you all are right for your vision of the universe.

Personally I see it like most things in Traveller. It varies. Even in the same region of space it varies over time.

Lots of piracy then measures are put in place to counter it and the pirates either are caught, destroyed, move to greener pastures, or whatever.

Low piracy then alert levels, security measures, defensive manpower and weaponry and resources to counter it are reduced to save costs. Now the environment is such that piracy may creep back in.

That said, one of my issue with piracy being common is the cost of the ship to do the pirating. It's like someone taking a retirement fund to buy a Lamborghini and entering it into a demolition derby where the winner gets a pink slip. There is also the risk of serious injury and death.

I know people will tear that analogy up, but the concept is

"It's like someone taking their retirement fund"
you already have a ship, something of immense value that even on the black market would provide the entire crew enough money to retire on

"buy a Lamborghini"
Pointing out that the pirate ship is quite valuable, something the average person only dreams of having.

"entering it into a demolition derby"
Piracy has risks of costly damage to your very expensive pirate ship and the prize you are hoping to win.

"where the winner gets a pink slip"
They could gain a ship, but no guarantee the pirate will win. Their ship could be the one seized.

"There is also the risk of serious injury and death."
Self explanatory.

In general, I see someone somehow seizing their very first ship as being the "big score". If they somehow have piracy black market connections they sell and find someplace to retire in luxury. They typically don't decide to go live in a cave, and when they come out, drive around in their stolen Lamborghini looking for a Corvette to jack? Some other ship to... um, do whatever with and still live in a cave? What is the pirates end game? Just unlawful malcontents doing it for the adrenaline rush?

The pirates are not in opposition or contrary to the very frightening patchwork of the "military-industrial complex" of the era of the Third Imperium, they are part of it. They exist because they have a purpose - arguably several purposes. They are deniable assets, usable by corporations, political groups and factions, the intelligence community, and organized crime. They range in organization and attitude from PMCs to Outlaw Biker Gangs to Revolutionaries. But all of the them, when operating as pirates, exist on the fringes of civilized space (as defined by Starport type) - and their survivability probably depends upon how well they fill their economic and ecological niche in combination with how well they blend in.

Indeed.

Piracy by any other name...

If a criminal ring seizes a civilian ship they would be called pirates.
How about if they seize a ship from a competing criminal ring? Is that still piracy?
How about if they are a religious militant criminal group seizing a civilian ship to help fund their cause?
A religious militant group trying to overthrow a government and they seize a civilian ship to help fund their cause?
This religious militant group succeeds and sets up the new ruling government, they write history, they don't call themselves pirates - they call the old government that is trying to regain control and is seizing their ships the pirates.


I have not looked at the campaign that initiated this discussion so do not know the details, but my understand from what others have said is that there is a bit of commerce raiding and two, or more, sides in contention.

The "pirate base" could be a former backed "military contractor" of some faction that seized ships and re-purposed them for "the cause".

Perhaps the class B "hidden" "pirate" base is merely a myth to help distance any "piracy" from smearing a factions reputation. The base for the raiding pirates was hidden but the port was in plain sight, a real star port or military base was used to modify or chop up captured ships. So maybe the players characters find a base but no class B star port. Clues may point to who was behind things...

 

[atpollard]

Just made a mistake and failed to save my latest response to AT's latest post. At this time I can't be bothered to do the whole thing over again. Maybe later.


Hans

Been there, done that.

 

[atpollard]

It's like someone taking a retirement fund to buy a Lamborghini and entering it into a demolition derby where the winner gets a pink slip. There is also the risk of serious injury and death.

I know people will tear that analogy up, but the concept is

I like the analogy ... illustrative and a funny mental picture.

IMTU, 'Pirate Ships' (as a class of ship, like Far Traders) must have a legitimate function for someone to build it. Any particular ship may have 'aftermarket options' that raise eyebrows, but the basic ship should have a legitimate reason to exist.

I have an example from an 'Accountants in Space' adventure I was once it that offers at least one suggestion:
Fred the Broker (not his real name) sets up shop on a world just buying and warehousing Speculative Cargo to ship as freight to his brother Willy the Broker on another world. Since this was CT and one world was Poor Agricultural and the other was Rich Industrial (or some such multi-trade code combination), there were lots of opportunities to make large profits. About twice per year, I purchased 10 MCr/dTon Computers and all but shut down operation as all of my operating capital was tied up for 23 weeks as the 4 dTon 40 Mcr cargo (purchased for 20 MCr) made 6 x J1 trips from Fred to Willy. Then I waited for another 6 x J1 trips for the 160 MCr cash to make its way back to Fred. I could really use a J6 ship with a 6 dton cargo capacity and enough weapons to get my cargo safely to market. With MCr 280 per year profit on the line, I can afford to subsidize a ship that I will only NEED twice per year. The economic difference to Fred of being shut down for 46 weeks per year (at J1) vs 6 weeks per year (at J6) is a huge 'opportunity cost'. Even when I had enough capital that it didn't shut down the business, the cash from the Computers was still not earning me money on other deals.

A J6 ship with a 6 dton cargo hold and maximum triple turrets will raise more than a few eyebrows and suspicions at Starports ... but I can afford to pay Cr 6000+ credit per dTon for 'expedited delivery' of valuable cargo and be glad for the opportunity.
I can afford to subsidize the ship and still earn more profit per year.
The point being that there is a small legitimate market for a ship that could certainly be put to more nefarious uses.

... and my Lamborghini has extra armor.

 

[whulorigan]

In general, I see someone somehow seizing their very first ship as being the "big score". If they somehow have piracy black market connections they sell and find someplace to retire in luxury. They typically don't decide to go live in a cave, and when they come out, drive around in their stolen Lamborghini looking for a Corvette to jack? Some other ship to... um, do whatever with and still live in a cave? What is the pirates end game? Just unlawful malcontents doing it for the adrenaline rush?

I would guess that (taking into consideration the good points you make above) that piracy comes about as the "evolution" of a previous legitimate or semi-legitimate profession:

1) A contracted Privateer who is later forced to go rogue because of that accidental and unfortunate incident of the attack on the ship that was outside the purview of his letter of marque . . . (This was also a common problem historically during the Golden Age of Piracy, especially if the backing organization/nation made peace with the adversary organization/nation, but communications did not catch up with the privateer in time).

2) The formerly legitimate Free Trader that is currently unable to make his payments (and is perhaps already the target of skip-tracers) who needs to make some money on the side to pay off his debt and/or turn a profit . . .

3) The person who has somehow come into possession of a ship outright and has contracted out to a larger organization that is backing him and agreeing to keep the ship in repair in return for service (among other things) . . . (This could either be a criminal organization promoting criminal piracy or a "legitimate" privateering contract).
​

In cases 1 & 2 above, the person in possession of the ship is in a situation where he cannot easily dispose of the ship thru normal sale (or does not want to sell in the first place and is looking for an alternative solution to his problems).

 

[rancke]

The most important thing I was going to say is that AT is quite mistaken in his belief that I want to remove pirates from the OTU. I'm merely arguing that pirates in the Imperium makes about as much sense as dragons on dungeons. But who would want to remove dragons from dungeons?


Hans

 

[flykiller]

But who would want to remove dragons from dungeons?

I used to watch the old roadrunner cartoons, where wile e. coyote forever is chasing the roadrunner through the desert. I saw the episode where he finally catches the roadrunner. he's all happy and gets ready to eat him. but he starts thinking about it, and realizes that he has spent so much of his life chasing the roadrunner that he doesn't know what else to do. so the coyote lets the roadrunner go, and then starts chasing him again. totally irrational, but that was what he wanted.

to include pirates in the otu will require giving up something else. giving up the imperial navy, giving up intelligent merchants, giving up rational law enforcement, giving up planetary governments, giving up a culture of space-going trade - something. one may give it up by means of location - e.g. fringe of empire - or by plot device - e.g. letter of marque - or by referee fiat - e.g. yet another fat merchant flies ignorantly into the ao. but something else will have to go.

 

[atpollard]

The most important thing I was going to say is that AT is quite mistaken in his belief that I want to remove pirates from the OTU. I'm merely arguing that pirates in the Imperium makes about as much sense as dragons on dungeons. But who would want to remove dragons from dungeons?
Hans

to include pirates in the otu will require giving up something else. giving up the imperial navy, giving up intelligent merchants, giving up rational law enforcement, giving up planetary governments, giving up a culture of space-going trade - something. one may give it up by means of location - e.g. fringe of empire - or by plot device - e.g. letter of marque - or by referee fiat - e.g. yet another fat merchant flies ignorantly into the ao. but something else will have to go.

I believe that "there is no stealth in Space" was the thing 'given up' in the Rules as Written. With a 100K km detection limit, you need eyes everywhere to detect a ship. An unlucky (he did nothing wrong) merchant arrives at the minimum jump time, placing him farther than average outside the 100 diameter jump limit at a dead stop. He begins accelerating at 1G and is detected by a desperate ship loitering beyond planetary detection range hoping for exactly such an encounter. The Pirate has a chance of forcing the merchant to choose between suffering heavy damage (possible destruction) or changing course to be boarded and robbed. Stealing and selling speculative cargo can be even more profitable than buying and selling it. ... and the Merchant continues on its way.

No incompetent Navy, or defenseless world or UBER pirate ship is required.
Even among the RAW, piracy is an uncommon event restricted to less capable starports.

Sometimes, the Dragon in the Dungeon makes perfect sense.

 

[flykiller]

No incompetent Navy, or defenseless world or UBER pirate ship is required.

this is an example of giving up competent merchants. real merchants, after two or three pirate boardings, will call a meeting and say "we're gonna git that boy". and if they're rich enough to 1) own ships and 2) engage in interstellar trade, then they can and they will.

 

[atpollard]

this is an example of giving up competent merchants. real merchants, after two or three pirate boardings, will call a meeting and say "we're gonna git that boy". and if they're rich enough to 1) own ships and 2) engage in interstellar trade, then they can and they will.

Remember that we are talking about an infrequent event to start with.
How many Pirate rolls have you actually made in Traveller games?

I would see a pirate with a territory as being part of a larger criminal organization. If that is the case, then good luck since this may be closer to a clandestine trade war.

The strength of a pirate ship (if I were a lone pirate) is that I have no need to stay in one location. A meandering path that criss-crosses imperium borders works just fine for me. So your 'doing something' fleet needs to chase after a J2 to J4 ship through Imperial space, Vargr Space, Aslan Space and unaligned worlds looking for a 400 dton ship that is constantly trolling for a 100 dTon or 200 dTon ship to lighten of 2d6 dTons of cargo or an air-raft.

I bet I can generate more expense for you from the chase than the cargo that I stole from you (or even the entire Free Trader) was worth. At some point the corporate accountants will come to their senses and call off the chase. Can you catch a pirate ship if you are really determined to? Probably a YES. My job as a pirate is to make it not worth your while to do so.

If things get out of hand in any one area, send in a few q-ships to thin the herd while scattering the rest. The Imperium needs to suppress piracy, not eliminate it. Diminishing marginal returns should make it easy to reduce piracy, but almost impossible to completely eradicate it ... which is what the encounter tables reflect.

 

[rancke]

I believe that "there is no stealth in Space" was the thing 'given up' in the Rules as Written. With a 100K km detection limit, you need eyes everywhere to detect a ship.

Not everywhere. Just a ring of 24 sattelites orbiting at 90 diameters.

The pirate, incidentally, will have 4% chance of happening to be in detection range of an arriving merchant. And then he'd have to hope and pray that it won't be an armed merchant. (All the ship types in TTA are armed, incidentally, although only with one to four turrets).

(All calculations involves a size 8 world).


Hans

 

[atpollard]

I keep saying that the devil is always in the details, so ...

Sharrip (Spinward Marches, Lunion 2325)
Let's say they have your net.

How many of the Tens of people on the TL A world with the Class C starport are operating the Warship that is coming after my 400 dton quad triple turret Pirate Corsair?

What will the 2.6% of GDP support for planetary defense?

Will I encounter any 200 dTon J1 free traders bopping along the J1 main from Lunion to Strouden?

So Sharrip sends out a Type S Scout to get help, and being a kinder and gentler pirate, I do nothing to stop it. Two to twelve (2d6) days later, a Free Trader arrives looking to refuel before continuing on its way. I seize the cargo and Jump away. Two to twelve days after that (14 days after the Scout left to get help), help arrives. The Free Trader is fine (and may have jumped), the cargo is gone and I am on my way to refuel at one of 18 worlds within J4.

Are you about to dispatch 18 ships to chase me to recover the cargo?
If you do not detect my ship refueling at the gas giant, then I can jump again bringing the number of possible destinations that I might be at up to more than 50. Let's say that you send out your 50 ship fleet to check everywhere for me, mobilizing all the planetary Navies to be on the lookout. You get lucky and spot me at extreme detection limit and begin pursuit. I jump away. Now I am in one of 48 hexes (however many worlds that is).

Have you continued to expand your search by 4 parsecs per week to stay ahead of me and set your traps?
How much is it costing you to recover the cargo from a free trader?
When do you decide that the pursuit is not worth it?

By the way, the Imperial Fleet is now searching for me in the Sword Worlds.

I sell the cargo (750,000 credit per dT Machine Tools) 4 weeks later in District 268 before 'setting sail' for Penelope (Five Sisters 0533).

Is Piracy easy?
Heck no.

Is it Plausible?
I think it is.

 

[McPerth]

Off course, tha main reasons for OTU having pirates are Metagame reasons:

• They are seen as cool
• They give place to many adventures, either as pirates or as pirate hunters
• They give any ship some reason to be careful
• Where have you seen a sci-fi setting without them?
• Should they not be, we would be having this same discussion about "why there are none?"

This said, there are many ways to justify it (all of them argeable), including the "compliance" of the Navy so that it will keep being seen as necessary in areas far from frontiers, and so keep their Budget (and posts and influence) high.

 

[rancke]

I keep saying that the devil is always in the details, so ...

Sharrip (Spinward Marches, Lunion 2325)
Let's say they have your net.

Highly unlikely. They couldn't afford it. I don't understand what those 50 people are doing there. What I would expect at Sharrip is a fuel refinery stationed outside any jump limits to serve the large number of freighters moving cargo between Strouden and Lunion. To guard against pirates, just station a couple of destroyers from the Lunion Navy or the Strouden Navy (or a couple from both navies) near the fuel refinery.

(OTOH, I don't understand why a Human-prime world like Sharrip doesn't have a vibrant population in the tens or hundreds of millions; someone must be actively preventing people from settling there).

Will I encounter any 200 dTon J1 free traders bopping along the J1 main from Lunion to Strouden?

Very few. There's no trade to or from Sharrip. Just through trade. And a J1 ship can't compete with J2 ships for trade between Lunion and Strouden (it tkes longer and costs more).


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Highly unlikely. They couldn't afford it. I don't understand what those 50 people are doing there. What I would expect at Sharrip is a fuel refinery stationed outside any jump limits to serve the large number of freighters moving cargo between Strouden and Lunion. To guard against pirates, just station a couple of destroyers from the Lunion Navy or the Strouden Navy (or a couple from both navies) near the fuel refinery.

(OTOH, I don't understand why a Human-prime world like Sharrip doesn't have a vibrant population in the tens or hundreds of millions; someone must be actively preventing people from settling there).

Very few. There's no trade to or from Sharrip. Just through trade. And a J1 ship can't compete with J2 ships for trade between Lunion and Strouden (it takes longer and costs more).

Hans

I guess then that it will be a Far Trader on the Lunion-Strouden route looking to refuel at Sharrip that I catch ... and the less time I need to wait, the longer my head start running away. I could be in another system before help begins the jump to Sharrip and on my second jump before they learn about the theft.

On world data, I am not prepared to argue for the OTU results.
For the OTU, they are what they are.
IMTU, I do what I want.

From a discussion standpoint, one of the hell holes with a high POP, high TL and Class A/B starport SHOULD be the Low Pop, Class D world that ships use to refuel and where my Pirate ship is waiting to catch them and steal easily portable wealth.

 

[rancke]

I guess then that it will be a Far Trader on the Lunion-Strouden route looking to refuel at Sharrip that I catch ... and the less time I need to wait, the longer my head start running away. I could be in another system before help begins the jump to Sharrip and on my second jump before they learn about the theft.

Except that the setup I propose is even easier to defend than a world. The merchants can jump to a spot where they are protected by the ships stationed there from the second they arrive to the second they depart. Sharrip would be one world that a pirate would steer away from.

On world data, I am not prepared to argue for the OTU results.
For the OTU, they are what they are.

Don and Rob have actually persuaded Marc Miller to change OTU world data if there were reasons to think that they are highly implausible. And having thought it over, I think there's a decent chance that Sharrip might get the nod for a retcon. I'll certainly give it a try.

And whether I can persuade MM or not, it doesn't help your case to accept everything unquestioningly. If you rely on implausible worlds to make piracy work, piracy remains implausible.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Except that the setup I propose is even easier to defend than a world. The merchants can jump to a spot where they are protected by the ships stationed there from the second they arrive to the second they depart. Sharrip would be one world that a pirate would steer away from.

And whether I can persuade MM or not, it doesn't help your case to accept everything unquestioningly. If you rely on implausible worlds to make piracy work, piracy remains implausible.

Hans

I simply posit that EVERY C, D and E starport is not located on a world that can afford to be protected by the Guns of Navarone and an Aircraft Carrier Task Group. Somewhere there are (Somalia-like) worlds that are poor and yet, also located along trade routes where the fleet will arrive and the pirates will hide, then the fleet will leave and a pirate will return.

I accept the published data because I see little ground for anything but unsupported opinions if we reject the Rules as not representing the OTU and the published world data as not representing the OTU.

So what is a reliable source of data on the OTU?

Where is a world that cannot afford a fleet in the OTU?
I would be happy to start from there.

If the OTU is all high tech, high population, well defended military outposts, the you are correct, Piracy is illogical (or a Borg fleet). But that is not the general vibe I got from the OTU references that I have read.

 

[rancke]

There are plenty of worlds that can't afford to fund system defenses. They either tend to have little or no trade and thus to get no traffic, or the merchants that do pass through would be armed as a deterrent to pirates..


Hans

 

[Travellerspud]

a few questions that need to be answered before the Piracy Question can really be discussed in a meaningful way;

...how close does one sensor system need to be to a ship to "positively identify" the ship? Or even "vaguely identify"? Combat range? Full detection range? Visual range (whatever that is)? Neutrino detection range (to get a power plant signature)? Of course, the transponders transmit an ID (and everyone knows these are infallible.....)

...at what range can combat be detected?

...can radio transmissions be jammed?

...can direction of jump be determined (and if so, at what distance)?

...how well are ship parts (and cargo) "branded" with ownership info?

(IMTU, most piracy is either PC's, or Privateers with letters of marque, Megacorp trade wars, local crime syndicates hitting the wrong target, or some sort of intelligence op....and the remaining desperate pirate gangs of stolen ship's boats and cutter's - usually when a planetary govt. collapses and the regime that takes over is looking for quick cash - they insist they are working to fight the pirates while in fact supporting them, ala Port Royal in the 1700's)

 

[flykiller]

ah. ruleset questions.

probably won't get a single answer as not only are there many rulesets, there are many players (somewhere ...) who do it their own way, so on top of multiple official rulesets there will be even more imtu rulesets.

mine, if you care:

...how close does one sensor system need to be

imtu, everything not behind a larger body is seen, though not identfied. imtu "computers" are translated to sensor suites, and any observed target can be positively identified within (sensor suite) light seconds, modified by navigation skill.

...at what range can combat be detected?

... what?

targets can be engaged at the same ranges as they can be positively identified. sand and missiles can be identified as such at any range. laserfire cannot be detected directly, it can be detected only by any damage it causes, unless it is pointed directly at you, then the flash is obvious.

...can radio transmissions be jammed?

yep. and everyone in the entire system will know it, will know who is doing it, and will be able to guess why.

...can direction of jump be determined (and if so, at what distance)?

imtu, no. but I'm thinking about it.

...how well are ship parts (and cargo) "branded" with ownership info?

(shrug) as well as you want. not at all, or embedded rfid's, or laser etching of every single part. there could be positive id policies, e.g. either show the id number of your power plant, and it matches official ownership records, or the plant gets confiscated on the spot. sky's the limit.

 

[Travellerspud]

I like this...may have to "pirate" it

"imtu, everything not behind a larger body is seen, though not identfied. imtu "computers" are translated to sensor suites, and any observed target can be positively identified within (sensor suite) light seconds, modified by navigation skill."​