A Mongoose Box Set?

[Spinward Scout]

Except that you're conflating "Starter Set" and "Demo Set" (Demo Set = Quickstart).

They are NOT THE SAME.

Now I'm really confused. I own two boxed sets for other space games. One is for Alternity and the other is for the Star Wars Edge of the Empire game.

The Alternity box set has a 32-page Rules Book, a 32-page Adventure Book, Hero Folders (pre-gen characters), a Gamemaster Screen with a ship deckplan on it, and "Adventure Dice". The Rules Book has information on Playing the Game, a Skirmish Scenario, Running Adventures, Skill Descriptions, and a back section with Aliens, both friendly and adversary. The Adventures Book has some info about Adventuring, short sections about NPCs, the star system they start in, and the ship they own, plus 3 short adventures. No character gen or design and the back of the box says the box contains everything needed to start playing now.

The Star Wars Edge of the Empire Beginner Game has a 4-page 'Read This First' example of play and a bit of background, a 48-page Rulebook plus a chart on the back, a 32-page Adventure Book, Character Folios (pre-gen characters), tokens, dice, and a front and back map with a large ship deckplan on it. The Adventure Book (which says Read This Second) completely walks through seven Encounters, and ends with other adventure ideas, rewards, and further adventures. The follow-up Rulebook has sections on Playing the Game, Combat, Skills, Talents, Gear and Equipment, Starships and Vehicles, and Adversaries. No chargen in this one, either. And the back of this box says: Open the box and begin playing immediately.

Maybe I am confusing the two, but could you explain to me if either of those is a "Demo Set" or a "Starter Set"? I'm pretty sure Liftoff! will be compared to the Star Wars box in the gaming community.

 

[aramis]

I've never seen that Alternity boxed set, so I can't speak to it. But the Star Wars sets are right on the boundary between a demo and a starter set. They'd clearly be starters if they had character generation.

The Alternity box for Starcraft, that was a demo kit. It didn't include enough for long term play.

Decipher's folios for LOTR and Star Trek were demos - playable, just enough rules to do the adventures.

Liftoff isn't a demo box. It's clearly in the "long-term playable RPG" range, but with simplifications.

Likewise, Holmes and Moldvay both left out large chunks of of their D&D Basic Set designs - just enough to play. Only through level 3, tho', and only with relatively low-threat-level monsters. They left out large chunks of the worldbuilding stuff - no castles, no followers rules. They also left out the overland and sea movement rules (which are in AD&D, and eventually show up in Cook's Expert Set).

 

[Spinward Scout]

Ok, so what is Book 0?

 

[aramis]

Ok, so what is Book 0?

A botched attempt at a starter set. It's not simplified; it's just missing large chunks. It lacks a starter adventure. And it pretty much requires one to be already familiar with RPGs.

 

[Spinward Scout]

A botched attempt at a starter set. It's not simplified; it's just missing large chunks. It lacks a starter adventure. And it pretty much requires one to be already familiar with RPGs.

Which makes me wonder if I'm not the only one that's confused. Mongoose sounds a bit confused, too.

If we want to get more people "Playing Traveller", maybe we should be focusing on "Playing Characters" instead of "Creating Characters".

Which would be a Demo Set or Quick Start Set, right?

 

[aramis]

Which makes me wonder if I'm not the only one that's confused. Mongoose sounds a bit confused, too.

If we want to get more people "Playing Traveller", maybe we should be focusing on "Playing Characters" instead of "Creating Characters".

Which would be a Demo Set or Quick Start Set, right?

Right. Demo sets and quickstarts are usually an adventure, 3-6 pregens, and just enough of the rules for the combination of pregens and adventure present. Sometimes, they even include dice - either taped to, or boxed with, the module.

Some of the quickstarts I've used:

Game	Rules	Adventure	Characters
Alternity	Small subset, no CGen	50% of kit
Cosmic Patrol	75% of core No CGen	30% of module	6 pregens each; each of the three has different. RPG itself has a dozen pregens
FFG 40 K games (RT, OW, DW, BC)	Small subset. simplified combat	60% of module	3-4 Pregens (2 more by download)
D-Trek	small subset No CGen Dice included	50% of module	yes
D-LOTR	small subset No CGen Dice included	50% of module	yes
Alternity Starcraft	Small subset, no CGen	50%	several
Tunnels and Trolls	Older edition subset 2/4 classes core mechanics only no elaborations full experience rules	2 adventures, 20% and 40% of pagecount	no. CGen included
D&D 4E	small subset	50% of module	6
Firefly	Large subset no experience	60%+ of modules	sold separately
MGT	Subset of CGen full tasks subset of skills large subset of personal combat	None	none - char gen included
Basic D&D – Moldvay	full core Dice included	full size, 30% of pagecount	1 (sample character), full CGen
Basic D&D – Mearls (2014)	large subset core limited classes full CGen no Experience No adversaries	None	full CGen with limited classes
Firefly (Gencon Preview)	Large Subset	2 full length adventures, maybe 25% of book	Serenity's Crew, plus large subset of CGen

[tc=4]For comparison[/tc]

Each of the Firefly adventures, BTW, includes the same preview rules. They are a large subset of the core. The Gencon Preview was a larger subset, including generation for ships and characters, lacking the experience rules, and only a large subset of the ship and character options. The actual release does have additional rules options, as well, including the experience rules. So, every adventure is a quickstart, but the Firefly Crew are sold separately...

 

[Jacqual]

For a Box set for playing somewhere I would love a 1,001 characters book type, you know for the random roll character. With a blurb saying how the core book does character creation, then add some adventures of different types Merc, Merchant, Adventure, and so on. The dice of course, I also really like the T5 dice that size feels real good in my hands.

 

[Echo]

A box set would be useful for me personally, as it would be nice to store my various dice, props, CD-Roms and various other paraphernalia in with a rules set.

That said, I think the real appeal for the Lift Off set was the uplift in the production standards -full colour and well laid out manuscripts, and high quality artwork.

Having again just worked through my Mongoose Traveller Core Rules book, my honest belief is that the game itself is simple enough to be a starter product in itself. It just needs a facelift in terms of presentation, layout and an occasional tidy up in rules and explanations here and there.

In my dreams, I hope to see more collusion between Mongoose and FFG to actually make a proper intro game - based on the Mongoose rules, but tying in more seamlessly into the more detailed T5 rules set (as an advanced set), and still fundamentally linked to Classic Traveller too. This intro game could be Kickstarted to spruce up the presentation to as high a level as possible, based upon support.

Unfortunately, there are still elements of tribal edition wars and desperately incompatible rules sets to work through. I don’t think this will ever happen.

 

[Adam Dray]

I had the opposite experience with the Mongoose rules.

I come from a background of 35+ years of gaming experience, but little experience with Traveller. Before picking up MGT, I read CT and played it once or twice.

It was rather difficult for me to figure out all the rules for making a proper character. The skill specialty rules, in particular, contradict one another all over the place. I can make a ruling as a Referee, but then I'm playing game designer. A novice to gaming won't know what to do.

All this really tempts me to put out my own OGL intro game, Liftoff be damned.

 

[mike wightman]

IIRC an awful lot of T20 is OGL. Combine what you can get from it with what you can get from the MgT OGL and you can probably hack a "generic 2d6 Science Fiction toolbox engine".

The setting is out of bounds, but building your own setting is part of the fun...

 

[aramis]

IIRC an awful lot of T20 is OGL. Combine what you can get from it with what you can get from the MgT OGL and you can probably hack a "generic 2d6 Science Fiction toolbox engine".

The setting is out of bounds, but building your own setting is part of the fun...

The T20 world gen, vehicle design and ship design rules are closed content. Off limits.

MGT world gen is in bounds, as is MGT ship design. But it's not directly compatible with any other edition for ship designs. (It's not the same math as Bk2 - close, but not quite.)

 

[HG_B]

IIRC an awful lot of T20 is OGL. Combine what you can get from it with what you can get from the MgT OGL and you can probably hack a "generic 2d6 Science Fiction toolbox engine".

Don't need to bother with T20 if you don't want to. MGT SRD's have everything you need. Although their vehicle design system is not good and is a completely different paradigm than the ship design system.

 

[salochin999]

Personally what I would have liked in my CT boxed set back then and what I'd like now if i was new to Traveller...

1) core rules
2) Book 0 version of the core rules that only included what was needed for the included example adventures
3) Pre-genned characters for the included examples. (Personally I think chargen is potentially the best place to explain the setting in a show don't tell way however maybe you don't need it in the Book 0 version - not sure. Either way pre-gens for speed.)
4) short example adventures designed to illustrate differences e.g. obstacles that have tech solutions and equipment that can solve them
5) some pretty map locations for the adventure including a deck plan
6) cool branded dice

so basically a kid on their own could read the Book 0, hand out the pre gens to some school friends and be playing a short game within a few hours.

(IIRC when i got the basic d&d set i was running a game for my bros within an hour or so.)

(also visual - deck plans - and tactile - cool dice - for added Ooo-ness)

On the adventures

- dungeons are conceptually very easy to conceive
- an open ended sci fi universe isn't

so make the trial adventures conceptually easy, for example

- a straight salvage company dungeon crawl
- a more involved Firefly like trader adventure which involved a clear linear path made up of a set of encounters/obstacles which the players need to overcome to reach their goal

like the FFG Star Wars example adventure in...edge of something.

 

[nats]

A Starter Traveller will need to include the very things that set Traveller apart - open world design, many different time periods, character generation, inability to communicate, swords on starships, sandcasters vs lasers, animal creation, vacc suits etc. It needs to get over the quirkiness of the Traveller game - something that has been eroded a lot by Mongoose I might add.

Mongoose have continued to change Traveller into a run of the mill sci-fi game with plasma pistols and massive warships - something that many of the later CT books started and so did many of the Journals articles.

I think this is why Traveller lost its way and it still doesn't have a very clear direction or style today, compared to the early rules in that lovely black box set. It is that classic quirkiness that needs to be celebrated beyond anything else to capture the minds and imaginations of new kids of today. Scifi RPGs games are ten a penny nowadays - Traveller is lost in the crowd because it doesnt set itself apart any more.

If I got the Mongoose Core Book today as an 11 year old would I even look at it much? Not a chance.

 

[robject]

It is that classic quirkiness that needs to be celebrated beyond anything else to capture the minds and imaginations of new kids of today. Scifi RPGs games are ten a penny nowadays - Traveller is lost in the crowd because it doesnt set itself apart any more.

If I got the Mongoose Core Book today as an 11 year old would I even look at it much? Not a chance.

That's an interesting observation. If an 11-year old saw FATE versus Traveller, he would indeed pick FATE due to its shininess and flexibility. If he picked Traveller, it would have to be because it staked out its territory well.

So, a generic Traveller might not have appeal, although GURPS Traveller seemed to do fine -- but even then it limited itself to Traveller's classic limits, didn't it?

 

[mike wightman]

Mongoose have a new starter edition on their product schedule list...

 

[nats]

That's an interesting observation. If an 11-year old saw FATE versus Traveller, he would indeed pick FATE due to its shininess and flexibility. If he picked Traveller, it would have to be because it staked out its territory well.

So, a generic Traveller might not have appeal, although GURPS Traveller seemed to do fine -- but even then it limited itself to Traveller's classic limits, didn't it?

Would be interesting to know what the GURPS Traveller age range is - whether its like Mongoose Traveller ie mainly people who bought it in the 80s, or whether its a lot of new younger players coming from GURPS' other products.

 

[robject]

Would be interesting to know what the GURPS Traveller age range is - whether its like Mongoose Traveller ie mainly people who bought it in the 80s, or whether its a lot of new younger players coming from GURPS' other products.

I bet Loren knows, since he was in charge of the line. He had access to the discussion forum database, and could have had a techie roll up the tables to determine the demographics.

 

[l_c_jackson]

News on the Mongoose Traveller boxed set

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119145&e=1&view=unread#p902006

Matthew Sprange said yesterday:

"we have just started work on the Traveller Starter Box Set, which will include the rules in three small softbacks (and a brand new campaign set in a previously unexplored part of the OTU...)."