CT Only: A ship house-rule I'm considering to use in CT

[Golan2072]

One house-rule I'm considering to use in CT (LBB2 universe for the most part) is that turret lasers (beam or pulse) do not cause criticals on ships of 1,000 dtons or more. A roll of "critical" will cause no damage in this case - it would make LBB2-verse "capital ships" somewhat more hardy vs. fighter hordes, and also make missiles and bay/barbette weapons, such as the ones suggested by Tbeard1999 in his Terran Commonwealth Ship Combat thread more interesting in inter-ship combat without needing too much firepower.

What do you think?

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm.

Perhaps not eliminate the critical hit at X tonnage, but rather universally make it a 1d6 damage, so you critical hit the Mdrive, roll 1d6 instead of just one hit, or one always dead hit.

Makes the small ships just as dead with a hit, and the big ships can still take a critical hit that our heroes get lucky with, do serious damage, but not outrageous heroism/dead in the water from one lucky laser hit.

Main thing is NEVER allow people to use the Select program for selecting the critical hit result.

The other 'fix' is to use the more space/cost efficient 'small craft' you have on your turrets- sandcasters to take away their laser shot, and two missiles per fighter target.

They won't be running ECM likely, they might shoot one missile down but the second will waste them, you should be able to thin them out at long range.

Go 10 turrets, 2 2 racks 1 sandcaster, 8 2 racks 1 laser, by regular CT rules you can launch 4 2-missile sets per turn due to the Target-4 limit, that's 60 missiles for 30 fighters engaged, most killed in 7 turns before you even reload.

Increase the Target limit of the software and you can engage even more faster.

Once they are down to a manageable four or less, clear the sandcaster screen, use that Predict/Evade advantage, and engage with lasers to finish them while you reload.

Then go blow up their little carrier, which gave up SOMETHING to host all those fighters.

 

[Bob Weaver]

I've never had a critical hit/explode result come up in a Bk2 combat (0.004% probability) so adding that rule might not make much difference, but it seems sensible just from a suspension of disbelief standpoint. Luke blew up the Death Star because he had both detailed plans of a structural weakness and the Force. It's harder to believe that a pokey little fighter could one-shot-zot a ship literally 100 times it size just by 'luck'. And it would leave everyone at the table with a "what just happened?" moment.

Cheers,
Bob W

 

[McPerth]

I've never had a critical hit/explode result come up in a Bk2 combat (0.004% probability) so adding that rule might not make much difference, but it seems sensible just from a suspension of disbelief standpoint. Luke blew up the Death Star because he had both detailed plans of a structural weakness and the Force. It's harder to believe that a pokey little fighter could one-shot-zot a ship literally 100 times it size just by 'luck'. And it would leave everyone at the table with a "what just happened?" moment.

Cheers,
Bob W

OTOH, it's likely that the details of standarized ships that have been in service for decades ahve already leacked, giving the equivalent to those detailed plans Skywalker had to most military forces, and not so detailed to any force with space combat capability (and their computers).

 

[pendragonman]

Perhaps instead of 1 kiloton or greater, you make it "armored hulls above AV-X" where X varies by hull tonnage, then house rule in the armor costs in from High Guard?

Then your Gazelles are somewhat one-shot proof, and gives a reason to spend a few bucks on armor.

 

[Golan2072]

One of the main reasons for this house-rule is avoiding putting the more complex armour rules into CT-LBB2, which (in a sense) go against its spirit.

 

[kilemall]

One of the main reasons for this house-rule is avoiding putting the more complex armour rules into CT-LBB2, which (in a sense) go against its spirit.

Hmmm, aren't there yet in my IMTU thread, but I gleefully add in the armor, it just plays out a little differently then HG, which is fine because I am shooting for SPACE DRAMA and not mass warfare resolution.

I'm going for very strong visualization of the combat process, heavy player interaction, and simplicity in resolution. Armor can be done with that result in mind.

 

[Bob Weaver]

OTOH, it's likely that the details of standardized ships that have been in service for decades have already leaked, giving the equivalent to those detailed plans Skywalker had to most military forces, and not so detailed to any force with space combat capability (and their computers).

That's plausible enough, if one also accepts the assumption that every starship of whatever size has an external vulnerability that can be so exploited. That the Death Star had one was a major plot point of the film. I don't see that happening with even well established ships like the Kinunir; less so in fact. The longer a ship's in service the more likely some engineer has looked at the specs and said "damn, if someone hits it there the whole thing will go up!" and then created a fix that's applied at the next annual maintenance.

Cheers,
Bob W

 

[McPerth]

But otherwise there's no chance for a ship to be fully destroyed. I talked about this in several threads, but here I go again:

In CT (either LBB2 or HG, or even MT, for what's worth), shps are rarely destroyed, just degradated. There are n orules for structural integrity, and a space ship can be converted to a space colander due to infinite hull wits and yet be spaceworthy (of the crew uses vacc suits) and easy to repair; and a ship that becomes missoin killed uses to be because of loss of a critical component (either PP, MD, computer) fuel or crew, but still quite easy (and cheap) to repair if it can be taken to a repair yard.

Even a tiny scout can endure unlimited hits if it's lucky enough as for all them being hull /hold hits...

The only real possibility for a ship to be fully lost is by criticals (and then only by ship vaporized), and if you take this possibility off (even for large ships), then all ships will be recovered for repairs by the holder of the "field" at the end of the battle.

And see that as the rule is presented, it will affect all ship's lasers, so even in a battle among 2 large (by LBB2) ships (let's say 5000 dtons) that are fully laser armed (each one of them pitting up to 150 lasers against the other), they will never be destroyed, just rendered dead in space (and so good for taking).

What I really think CT (again both in LLB2 and HG, as well as MT) space combat lacks is some form of structural damage that can lead to ship destruction (not necessary meaning vaporization, but making it useful only as scrap).

And I assume all ships have some sort of vulnerability, probably due to functioning needs (be the radiators to thow heat away, maintenance airlocks, structurally critical points, etc., the equivalent to turret ring in a tank, or the lucky hits that destroyed the Hood or disabled Bismark's rudder in may 1941. Both hits were thought to be imposible or nearly so by their designers...

 

[aramis]

But otherwise there's no chance for a ship to be fully destroyed. I talked about this in several threads, but here I go again:

In CT (either LBB2 or HG, or even MT, for what's worth)

Mayday does have a destruction rule.

A. Successive Damage: A target which receives four hits (including NE hits) in a player turn is destroyed. A target which receives at least three hits in three consecutive game turns is also considered to be destroyed. Hits repaired by damage control do not count towards these totals.

 

[Bob Weaver]

McPerth, I agree that there should be some more definition of hull damage that could lead to permanent incapacity. I understand Mongoose Traveller has a Structural Capacity stat for ships, that can be reduced by hull hits; if it goes to zero, the ship has come apart, game over.
At the same time, I don't like the idea that the PC's ship could, by lucky dice roll, get destroyed, ending the campaign because they were all aboard at the time.
My historical comparison comes without citation, but I seem to recall that during the Napoleonic period, it was far more common for a ship to be damaged & captured once it was immobile. Then the captors patched it up and put it back into service with a new crew. Since most cannon shots were above the water line, sinking a ship by holing the hull was difficult, and often not the point. Even bashed up, a ship that needs repair is cheaper and faster than a ship built from the keel up. Not hard to imagine that smaller poorer worlds or pocket empires would love to get a steeply discounted, if harshly used, battleship.

Cheers,
Bob W

 

[McPerth]

Mayday does have a destruction rule.

You forced me to dig for my copy...

THis opens several more questions:

• If this is used for LBB2 (allowing for larger thisp that are in Mayday), adapting it to size is a must (or large ships are too easily destroyed)
• A standard missile rolls twice in damage tables. A contact one rolls trice. Do they count as one hit each or as 2 or 3 respectively?
• If the latter, and if that is used in LBB2, remember a missile does 1d6 hits there...

Hmmm, aren't there yet in my IMTU thread, but I gleefully add in the armor, it just plays out a little differently then HG, which is fine because I am shooting for SPACE DRAMA and not mass warfare resolution.

Long time ago (when Traveller was jut traveller, no version needed to be specified) in my playing group we allowed for armor in LBB2 as a house rule. I don't remember many specifics, but it acted as negative modifier on the TH roll (as personal armor did in CT).

 

[McPerth]

McPerth, I agree that there should be some more definition of hull damage that could lead to permanent incapacity. I understand Mongoose Traveller has a Structural Capacity stat for ships, that can be reduced by hull hits; if it goes to zero, the ship has come apart, game over.
At the same time, I don't like the idea that the PC's ship could, by lucky dice roll, get destroyed, ending the campaign because they were all aboard at the time.

Neither do I, and that's not what I intended to say. If the PCs ship (or any other, or what's worth) comes apart due to cummulative (non critical) damage (as can happen in MgT), I'd asume it is falling apart, but not a large explosion that kills everybody. There could well be time to evacuate it.

It must not be a catastrophic explosion, just that it is too damaged for any repairs to be worth of conducting.

My historical comparison comes without citation, but I seem to recall that during the Napoleonic period, it was far more common for a ship to be damaged & captured once it was immobile. Then the captors patched it up and put it back into service with a new crew. Since most cannon shots were above the water line, sinking a ship by holing the hull was difficult, and often not the point. Even bashed up, a ship that needs repair is cheaper and faster than a ship built from the keel up. Not hard to imagine that smaller poorer worlds or pocket empires would love to get a steeply discounted, if harshly used, battleship.

You're right, though neither I have precise data handy. In Napoleonic times, most ships striked their culours once were no longer combat worthy (and some times not even sail worthy). only fires and magazine explosions (usually due to those same fires) destroyed them outright, but even in the case of fires there was usually time to evacuate them.

According a quick look to wikipedia, in Trafalgar were over 60 SOLs fought, only the French ship Achilles, was lost due to explosion, 20 ships were captured, of wich 2 were recaptured, 3 reached port and were recomissioned as British and 15 were lost when trying to reach port as prizes.

So, I see it even as an argument for my POV, as most ships lost were lost outright (not able to be repaired), though most of them not by criticals, and there was time to evacuate them. By assuming Trafalgar's numbers to traveller would be one ship lost by criticals, 5 heavily damaged but eparaible (3 by the victor, 2 recaptured by their crews or allies before being recomissioned) and 15 lost due to cummulative damage, though not in catastrophic event.

 

[kilemall]

McPerth, I agree that there should be some more definition of hull damage that could lead to permanent incapacity. I understand Mongoose Traveller has a Structural Capacity stat for ships, that can be reduced by hull hits; if it goes to zero, the ship has come apart, game over.

Keep watching for my IMTU, when I get to starship combat I'll be posting the hull damage rules.

Basically, losing things like power cables to equipment, bridge controls to engines, deflectors down, gravitics, sensors, comms, etc. and at the far end, past 100% damage you can lose life support, at 120% the hull can break apart (but on a practical basis highly unlikely until more damage piles up).

It's engineering drama without SCRAMing the reactors, and allows for the possibility of relatively functional ship capture.

Came out of being a Seekrieg player, and looking at those hull hits and realizing they are hitting things that hurt.