Alenzar / Reidain / 3229 Foreven

[Whipsnade]

Or do we naturally use the Foreven that GypsyComet and others have embellished for us?

Robject,

Let me vote against the Foreven found at zho.berka and other sites.

My primary complaint with this pseudo-canonical Foreven has to do with the size of a Zhodani client state called the Avalar Consulate.

I have no problems with Zhodani client states in Foreven and I have no problems with multi-system Zho client states either. What I do have a problem with is a large Zho client state that controls nearly all of four subsectors. It's twice the size of the Swords and Darrians combined, it's one subsector away from the Five Sisters, and yet it's never been involved in any of the Frontier Wars?

A state that size should have had some small effect on the Imperium and it should have had a major effect on the Darrians. Naturally, real canon has no mention of it. However, the creators of our pseudo-canonical Foreven should have taken care to see that the Avalar Consulate "fit" into previously published materials. They did not, their creation is too big, and that's why their version of Foreven should be ignored.

(And how much freedom is it, when the borders are already drawn anyway?)

It isn't any freedom at all and, when you consider the problem I mentioned above, the pseudo-canonical Foreven we do have is badly broken.

Well, I could blather on and complain some more, or I can keep asking for suggestions and set things up the way I like.

Blather and complain away. Han's map is a good start. None of the polities in it are large and/or close enough to have effected the Marches enough to have been noticed, therefore they "fit".


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Vargas]

The only real result is IMO a major downside: Those of us who want useful background material more than the freedom of a blank space won't ever get it. The only practical reason to stick to canon is to be able to use stuff other people create. But any stuff anyone creates for Foreven is almost guaranteed to differ from the stuff others have created. What's the upside to that?

It might be useful to view Foreven in its historical context. At the time the sector was set in stone, there was a big push, fanned in no small way by HIWG and its members, to establish what was canon. There was no small competition to get there first and stake a claim, whereever "there" was, by writing an article, whether it saw publication or not. (After some of HIWG's material got incorporated into the Rebellion Sourcebook, the assumption was that DGP would use the ready made material the Working Group was pumping out, thus enshrining the author's work as canon. Some people were in fact quite upset when this turned out not to be the case). So in the gold rush atmosphere, other people were decrying the fact that everything was getting "paved over" and so Foreven was walled off to give those folks a preserve. While it's absolutely true that the Game Police won't come after you for doing your own thing, I think Marc was trying to address a perceived need among the, for lack of a better term, fan base.

 

[Vargas]

I have no problems with Zhodani client states in Foreven and I have no problems with multi-system Zho client states either. What I do have a problem with is a large Zho client state that controls nearly all of four subsectors. It's twice the size of the Swords and Darrians combined, it's one subsector away from the Five Sisters, and yet it's never been involved in any of the Frontier Wars?

Woah, good point.

 

[robject]

It might be useful to view Foreven in its historical context. At the time the sector was set in stone, there was a big push, fanned in no small way by HIWG and its members, to establish what was canon. There was no small competition to get there first and stake a claim, whereever "there" was, by writing an article, whether it saw publication or not. (After some of HIWG's material got incorporated into the Rebellion Sourcebook, the assumption was that DGP would use the ready made material the Working Group was pumping out, thus enshrining the author's work as canon. Some people were in fact quite upset when this turned out not to be the case). So in the gold rush atmosphere, other people were decrying the fact that everything was getting "paved over" and so Foreven was walled off to give those folks a preserve. While it's absolutely true that the Game Police won't come after you for doing your own thing, I think Marc was trying to address a perceived need among the, for lack of a better term, fan base.

That's a very cogent point, and could very well be true. Thank you for that!

 

[Vargas]

That's a very cogent point, and could very well be true. Thank you for that!

Sure thing.

 

[robject]

For starters, then, here's my first pass at Reidain.

I moved some worlds away from the Darrian border in order to build a jump-1 route into the subsector from Alenzar, downgraded most of the tech levels and starports, removed all bases except for Scouts on Hollis, and set most worlds to be non-aligned.

Although, it seems like the Type A free trader from DA5 ought to have jump-2 (perhaps it's been upgraded). What do you think?

Hollis          2523 B370642-B S  De Ni                 A 303 Cs M3 V
Ryanbiwul       2527 D778310-6    Lo Ni                   803 Na F9 V
Ontsi           2528 C775555-8    Ag Ni                   102 Na F7 V
Gitts           2623 C202535-B    Ic Ni Va                304 Na K0 V
Boygahe         2628 E400797-5    Na Va                   203 Na F5 V
Syl             2724 C510874-A    Na                      914 Na G0 I M7 V
Taypikacho      2823 C583876-5    Ri                      603 Na F5 V M9 V
Genape          2822 B7A2678-A    Fl Ni                   802 Na M8 V
Orynphant       2829 E54369A-3    Ni Po                 A 702 Na G9 V
Attbegasu       2923 C9A3203-A    Fl Lo Ni                600 Na F3 V M2 D
Jadrin          2924 C140566-A    De Ni Po                204 Na K0 V M2 V
REIDAIN         2925 C9EA97B-B    Fl Hi Wa Cp             202 Na G5 V M7 D
Lenskansi       2926 C120663-B    De Na Ni Po             833 Na A0 V
Danalipa        2927 B400754-B    Na Va                 A 400 Na M6 V
Isheydkoka      3021 C373300-B    Lo Ni                   102 Na G2 V
Gijisapo        3027 E150220-5    De Lo Ni Po             212 Na F1 IV
Inpota          3129 B665337-B    Lo Ni                   603 Na K4 V M6 V
Sowponanho      3126 E796877-4                          R 903 Na G4 V
Tadasvena       3028 C455125-7    Lo Ni                   802 Na F4 V M4 V
Lopiengeta      3227 D868365-4    Lo Ni                 A 103 Na F3 V
Alenzar         3229 C000414-9    As Ni                   513 Cs G0 V
Raschev         3230 D8697C4-6                            123 Cs F9 V

 

[Vargas]

I think I like that map; what software are you using?

 

[robject]

I think I like that map; what software are you using?

I'm using my own perl script to generate a PostScript file, then reading it in with Paint Shop Pro to convert to a JPEG. For this map, I instructed my script to generate a negative image, and then swap the pallette in PSP, which gives me the snappy black background.

I'm sure Mickazoid and others can do better with more generally useful tools. But I'm glad you like it.

My scripts can parse a wide variety of sector data, as long as it's in traditional order and has reasonable spacings. So if you send me a sector I can create a map for you pretty easily. The script can even run as a CGI on a server (though I haven't set that up for years).

 

[robject]

Thread Resurrect

The thread was originally about Alenzar, but has expanded to encompass thoughts about Foreven. I have new ideas about that.

Robject,
I have no problems with Zhodani client states in Foreven and I have no problems with multi-system Zho client states either. What I do have a problem with is a large Zho client state that controls nearly all of four subsectors. It's twice the size of the Swords and Darrians combined, it's one subsector away from the Five Sisters, and yet it's never been involved in any of the Frontier Wars?

At one point, Marc had also mentioned the Foreven sector and "playability" in the same breath, saying that perhaps Foreven could be worked on but not thrown away.

In order to do this, I think the sector would have to be made harder to cross, astrographically. Wind a little trench along the 24xx column, and sparsify the worlds in subsectors EFIJ, for example. That would reduce the presences of the Zhodani and Avalar, as well as cut them off (a bit) from each other. The key worlds in Imperiallines remain the same, and the map itself will look sparser than before, but otherwise compatible.

The funny minor 'trench rift' and the 'sparse' subsectors add character to Foreven, like the Great Rift does for Corridor, for example. It inhibits merchant travel. It helps hide secrets. It fractures the sector. It fosters independence more than the Marches. It can create interesting strategic bottlenecks.

And it does all this in the context of canon, even though it takes liberties with that canon.

 

[DonM]

Actually, perhaps the better question would be to ask, "Given what is known about Foreven, how can we explain it?"

Here's some thoughts:

"Avalar, 1080 - 1115: The Imperium's Secret Frontier War"
How the Avalar Consulate's economy was the real victim of the Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars, forcing the Zhodani to prop up a dead alliance partner and resort to true terror methods to keep a lid on the proxy war.

or perhaps

"Career of Ruin: From Freedom to Thought Police"
How an experiment to crash convert Imperial-leaning systems to Zhodani-leaning ones using psychohistorical techniques failed, the Zhodani whose careers were caught up in the mess, and the forgotten and exiled Imperial psionic houses who fought them.

As with the old LBB UWPs, the problem is not changing the borders, it's explaining why they are that way, and what the real situation is (or perhaps, what the top conspiracies are).

I've always felt that the reason nothing talks about Foreven is that the Imperium doesn't really want to have to openly admit what's going on there, and the Zhodani don't denounce them because their hands aren't any cleaner.

You guys can surely come up with a better solution than changing borders.

And I've revealed my secret Traveller technique. When thinking about things, I consider what some potential book titles about the problem might be, and then what their primary focus would be. Or articles, like I used with the timeline. I love coming up with book titles for conspiracies...

"The Solomani Menace: A Study of Solomani Internment Camps in the Spinward Marches, 1001 - 1050" is likely to be a great coffee table book for a naval admiral's study...

 

[robject]

Actually, perhaps the better question would be to ask, "Given what is known about Foreven, how can we explain it?"

Hey, you should be ecstatic. A month ago I was still keen to scrap the whole thing and start over

 

[DonM]

Is this going to be like the idea of moving the Core subsector in T4, for absolutely no reason at all?

My vote is always going to be for keeping the OTU's old warts, unless there's some extraordinary reason, like "TL1 worlds with billions on an asteriod" or "a size 1 world that's 90% water". Those kind of things I understand. But "the Zhodani client is too big, it doesn't make any sense" is just awful. That means no one's been thinking.

What if the Avalar Consulate is a SORAG-gone-rogue artificial construct, and they've resorted to a psionic tyranny to keep the wheels on the mess? Then Avalar becomes a cesspool of adventure for both Zhodani and Imperial, a place for either side to build in, or even for the two to work together.

The goal with the old materials isn't to make the smooth and polished, it's to understand and explain the warts.

 

[robject]

Is this going to be like the idea of moving the Core subsector in T4, for absolutely no reason at all?

[...]

The goal with the old materials isn't to make the smooth and polished, it's to understand and explain the warts.

"Absolutely no reason". Ironically, that seems to be Foreven's actual problem.

Got Purpose?

Well I do appreciate your suggestions -- at least you've attempted to find an explanation for the situation in Foreven. This isn't my attempt to leave a mark; quite the opposite, I want Foreven to leave the mark. And at present, I'm not seeing one.

So, my reason is, I think, a holistic one. A sector seasons the milieu, and also creates interference patterns with adjacent sectors. Put another way, there's a synergy (or there ought to be) between adjacent sectors.

The Marches and Gvurrdon, Ziafrplians, even the Trojan Reach. The interactions at the borders are positively electric. And each one is different, yet interesting.

Put yet another way, a sector -- especially one that's the Marches' neighbor -- needs a purpose, much like a High Guard warship must use its mission to inform its design. If a sector has a flabby 'purpose', it is a weak link, and fails to improve its neighbors and the milieu.

Maybe the way I'm thinking can be summed up in a regional joke we have here:

Q: Why does Oklahoma exist?
A: To keep Texas from sliding into the Gulf of Mexico (rim shot).

Or, to twist the metaphor far far more than I really ought:

Q: Why does Deneb exist?
A: To keep the Spinward Marches from falling into the Great Rift.


Yes, I think Deneb has exactly the same problem that Foreven will have if it's used as-is. No, I'm not on a crusade to change Deneb, too, and Lishun and Zarushagar and Fornost and &tc. I'm taking a look at an underutilized and relatively undefined sector and thinking "this should be tailored to improve the milieu".


Imperiallines Missed The Boat

And so I think Imperiallines missed the boat with its purpose statement. The closest it seems to come is here:

The basic "character" of Foreven is not much different from that of the Spinward Marches. Players will encounter the same alien races, such as the Droyne, Asian, Vargr, and Chirpers. Many of the sector's corporations and trade lines do business there as well. The Marches provide a good source of inspiration for the referee wishing to flesh out the sector for a campaign.

In other words, it's a non-Imperial version of Deneb.

Q: "Why is it so windy in the Spinward Marches?"
A: "Because Deneb sucks and Foreven blows."

Okay okay, that's too strong, but that's kind of the feeling I get. Bob to the left, and Bob to the right.

So I'm fishing for a purpose. And I've rejected the "Scrap It" suggestion. Modification can have the same effect, while preserving those four worlds that have UWP data. And if the starmap of Foreven has errors at the Spinward Marches interface, what's the probability that it's incorrect in the interior as well?

 

[DonM]

Purpose of the sector?

Depending on what you might say the "purpose" of the Spinward Marches is, there's going to be deficiencies.

What's the purpose of Foreven? I've always thought it could be to divert the Zhodani enough that their sham wars against the Imperium (come on, the last decent Zhodani effort was the Third War; the Fourth was an embarassment, and the Fifth humiliation) stay shams. I've always figured that since the end of the Third Frontier War, the bulk of Imperial planning in the Marches has focused on forcing the Zhodani to expend effort elsewhere and stay out of Imperial space.

Foreven is the perfect place to make this happen. The Avalar Consulate, on paper reads as the great experiment: Imperial style politics and freedom working with Zhodani culture and science. How does that great big client state get turned into nothing? By making it an utter failure, propped up by a series of Zhodani thoughtocrats who have resorted to those methods Imperials derisively accuse the Zhodani of to keep the lid on Avalar.

And Deneb/Trojan Reach are the other halves of the Marches; they need equal time. Politically, they are weak; Vincennes and Tobia deserve to be equal to Mora, but sadly, they are not.

But come on--you and I have explored these arguments before, and the fact is that anything you find annoying about Foreven I find intriguing. Imagine what an Avalar-version of SORAG would be like -- no limitations, and orders to keep the lid on. Some world leaders might have "personal handlers". The Solomani Party wishes they could build such an efficient structure.

But there aren't enough pro-Zho psionics to keep the repression on. And you've got old Imperial exiles, the old psionic nobility, who have passed their ancient banners and heraldry on to their children. The repression has changed their loss of power into a call to action: it is the duty of the old Imperial nobility to continue the fight, knowing those who cast them out will never accept them, because duty and honor demand it.

Whoa... now I want to write this up, turn it into an adventure outline like the Iridium Throne (see my website)... hmm, we need a name...

FOREVEN SECTOR
"Sunburst in Shadow: Lessons in Ancient Honor"

An exploration of the forgotten sector next door to the Spinward Marches; the early exploration and industrial expansion, the stagnation after the beginnings of the Zhodani wars, and the final collapse as the exiled psionic nobility attempt to build new homes in systems controlled by the enemy.

 

[robject]

You're right, of course; you seem interested -- nay, charged up -- by political intrigue and governments, whereas I prefer to see a more raw frontier. So for you, politics is a valid purpose. I see it over-used; everywhere is politics, nowhere is exploration.

 

[DonM]

And I see politics as underused in Traveller... but perhaps we're looking at different things...

Traveller has traditionally used politics as a backdrop, an excuse to get on to the adventure. I'd like to see Foreven developed where politics is the adventure. On the surface, you've got a sector where the Zhodani influence should be overwhelming, but it isn't.

And you've got an undercurrent of resentment and repression. And behind it, a group of ex-nobles who are almost willing to pull out those old relics and adopt them, if the PCs can give them a reason.

And perhaps, even if they can't. And the beauty is, we don't violate any canon by letting the FFW quietly continue in Foreven long after the treaties are signed in the Marches.

In fact, we can do anything we want in Foreven, we just need to agree on where things start before we begin adventuring.

And so Foreven goes from being the Sector set aside for GMs to being the sector where the PCs decide the fate of the sector. I like that change...

And it makes for some interesting adventures and plots.

 

[robject]

And I see politics as underused in Traveller... but perhaps we're looking at different things...

Traveller has traditionally used politics as a backdrop, an excuse to get on to the adventure. I'd like to see Foreven developed where politics is the adventure.

I can see your point. We are talking about the same thing, I think, but I agree that politics is underused in Traveller, i.e. used as a flimsy backdrop. Actually, it seems to be most often used as a backdrop for war. Naturally; Traveller has strong roots in wargaming. LBB4 was 'Mercenary', followed closely by 'High Guard', and only later the lackluster 'Scouts' and, in a distant fourth place, 'Merchant Prince'. Even T4 couldn't put out its 'Nobles' book.

And I can see your plot complications for Foreven. And I can well understand the coolness of players being able to 'move' a sector, to affect history, through their actions.

I think that the Spinward Marches is ripe for games of political intrigue.

• Regina vs. Mora
• the Gaesh
• the edginess of Efate (strikes me as edgy anyway)
• the Castro-like dictator on Roup
• Ruie!
• Tukera vs. Oberlindes
• the Vargr border
• the Trexalon Technical Consortium
• the Federation of Arden! Talk about Casablanca...
• the political brouha sure to erupt over the Shriekers
• the so-called 'exploration' adventure Leviathan
  • Shivva cruisers
  • Arkesh Spacers
  • McLellan Factors
  • Baraccai Technum
  • and the new-found Berengarian miniature evil-empire
• Darrian's "Special Arm"
• the Chamaxi in their colony ships for goodness sake
• the Tanoose Freedom League
• Ine Givar of course
• the entire Five Sisters subsector
• might as well just implicate the regional Imperial Navy powers-that-be while we're at it

I tell ya, massive set-ups are already in place, heads ready to roll, and none of these political plot devices has been anywhere near exhausted.

 

[robject]

How about Deneb?

On the surface, you've got a sector where the Imperial influence should be overwhelming, but it isn't.

And you've got an undercurrent of resentment and repression. And behind it, a group of ex-nobles who are almost willing to start a revolution, if the PCs can give them a reason.

And perhaps, even if they can't. And the beauty is, we don't violate any canon by letting tradewar and subsector squabbles quietly continue in Deneb long before and after frontier wars are started and ended in the Marches.

In fact, we can do nearly anything we want in Deneb, we just need to agree on where things start before we begin adventuring.

And so Deneb goes from being a static, boring sector to being the place where the PCs decide the fate of a sector. I like that change...

And it makes for some interesting adventures and plots.



I know, it's hamstrung by canon. But it does seem a shame to always have to push out the borders just to do something interesting, and let's face it, Deneb is not getting any more interesting by just sitting there.

 

[daryen]

While working on another project I have to admit that Deneb was a difficult subject. I was fortunate in that I had it pre-blown up. But, there are still several things, even in the CT era, that seem ripe for exploration.

First, have you actually looked at the world government of Deneb!? Or its star? Despite being the "sector capital", the world has a ridiculously repressive government and is very, very hard to get to because its star's 100D limit is so insane. That world alone should be a cauldron of political intrigue (if not an outright basket case). Its interaction with its neighbors, and the Imperium itself, is guaranteed to be nasty at best.

You have the entire Vargr frontier. You have a couple of worlds that have outright corsair bases in Deneb (something even the Spinward Marches does not have). If you like Vargr-related shenanigans, the coreward border of Deneb puts the comparitively tame Spinward Marches border to shame!

Of course, you have Vincennes. It is a TL 15/16 world that pretty much does its own thing. What does that mean? It is a technological powerhouse that has no equal in the entire Domain. Why is it not the capital? Did then get outmanuevered? Did they not want it? Just because Deneb is the sector capital doesn't mean it always has been. (And just because we know Mora better, doesn't mean that it is yet ascendant. Mora does not truly ascend until Norris moves there in MT/GT. Until then Mora is simply the nominal capital of the Spinward Marches, not the Domain of Deneb.)

And, my personal favorite, Askigaak. It is a dinky world with a very thin (tainted) atmosphere, TL C, E starport, with 90 billion inhabitants. WTF!? What is it doing? What is going on? How do they not kill each other? Why do they only (officially, anyway) have an E starport? Askigaak should drive enough trade to control the entire sector. Does it?

So, Deneb is not quite a placid as it would seem in the first glance.

 

[robject]

Well, I'm glad you mentioned all of this, because I really know very little about Deneb, and I know you know quite a lot. (You know, between the Darrians and Deneb, you've got the Marches flanked on two sides

First, have you actually looked at the world government of Deneb!? Or its star? Despite being the "sector capital", the world has a ridiculously repressive government and is very, very hard to get to because its star's 100D limit is so insane. That world alone should be a cauldron of political intrigue (if not an outright basket case). Its interaction with its neighbors, and the Imperium itself, is guaranteed to be nasty at best.

No, I did not know that. Interesting that it occupies such a strategically handy position -- Deneb will get plenty of warning if strike forces jump in. Sounds like a Bad Place. Yet has the blessings of the Imperium. (Can allies be worse than enemies sometimes?)

You have the entire Vargr frontier. You have a couple of worlds that have outright corsair bases in Deneb (something even the Spinward Marches does not have). If you like Vargr-related shenanigans, the coreward border of Deneb puts the comparitively tame Spinward Marches border to shame!

You're suggesting that the coreward subsectors of Deneb are a mess, and one might be able to pin the blame, indirectly, on the Imperium Herself, or at least her proxies. Politics for sure. Ever had to bargain with a lawless system?

Why does that remind me of the Ziru Sirka losing its grip on member worlds? (But, perhaps, how can you lose your grip on worlds that were only yours in name?) That, then, reminds me of the half-assed conquest of Canaan's cities by the Israelites 3500 years ago (give or take).

Of course, you have Vincennes. It is a TL 15/16 world that pretty much does its own thing. What does that mean? It is a technological powerhouse that has no equal in the entire Domain. Why is it not the capital? Did then get outmanuevered? Did they not want it?

What the heck. Well, hasn't Vincennes been TL16 (?) for awhile? Or maybe I'm thinking of a TL17 world in Deneb? What is the deal with these isolates? The Imperium can't or won't assimilate them and their technology. Sounds like a huge SNAFU, wrapped in an enigma, shrouded by Red Tape, and filed into the bottom drawer of a file cabinet housed in a broken toilet stall with a sign reading "beware of the leopard".

Just because Deneb is the sector capital doesn't mean it always has been. (And just because we know Mora better, doesn't mean that it is yet ascendant. Mora does not truly ascend until Norris moves there in MT/GT. Until then Mora is simply the nominal capital of the Spinward Marches, not the Domain of Deneb.)

In other words, we don't know squat about Deneb's history, nor when Deneb became the capital of Deneb... funny that: if the capital were elsewhere, then what was the sector's name? Something Vilani, perhaps, but maybe not. Anyhow, that means Deneb (the world) was pretentious enough to rename an entire sector when the capital moved? Just makes them sound more evil than ever.

And, my personal favorite, Askigaak. It is a dinky world with a very thin (tainted) atmosphere, TL C, E starport, with 90 billion inhabitants. WTF!? What is it doing? What is going on? How do they not kill each other? Why do they only (officially, anyway) have an E starport? Askigaak should drive enough trade to control the entire sector. Does it?

With an E starport, no it doesn't. If not, then what is it doing?? Soylent green? "Re-education" World for Deneb Dissidents? No, too pat. But I see what you mean, there are mysteries to probe here -- and they're all political, by the way.

So, Deneb is not quite a placid as it would seem in the first glance.

Indeed, you've given me things to think on.

You know, last year I wrote an outline for a small campaign set in the spinward end of Deneb, and the general impression I got about the sector even then was one of a great divide between haves and have-nots, and at least one simmering cauldron of general lawlessness. I think I need to compare notes with you on that part of the sector.