Alenzar / Reidain / 3229 Foreven

[daryen]

Getting back to Foreven, the key to the whole sector is the Avalar Consulate. Whatever its size, it is the key independent that then sets the mood for the whole sector. I agree that it is too big, but it is what it is. Making many of the worlds poor or low population can mitigate a lot of that (maybe only the few "nice" worlds have decent populations).

I do agree that what we know of it could be made to work (as Don points out), but then, I would rather its two independents be much smaller and have less Zhodani intrusion.

 

[rancke]

Getting back to Foreven, the key to the whole sector is the Avalar Consulate. Whatever its size, it is the key independent that then sets the mood for the whole sector. I agree that it is too big, but it is what it is. Making many of the worlds poor or low population can mitigate a lot of that (maybe only the few "nice" worlds have decent populations).

IMTU the so-called Avalar Consulate is actually the Weltenbund, a neutral-leaning-towards-the-Imperium confederation originally settled from Ephraim/Diaspora during the Pacification Campaigns. I know that Paranoia Press' work was de-canonized, but I don't see why they couldn't have kept the name[*]. Anyway, I think a neutral pocket empire would balance things much better than a Zhodani-influenced one (Also, I'd already worked out six centuries worth of Weltenbund settlement and development ). So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.



Hans


[*] Yes, I know PP called it Weltbund; a German friend told me the correct form is Weltenbund.

 

[Whipsnade]

Getting back to Foreven, the key to the whole sector is the Avalar Consulate. Whatever its size, it is the key independent that then sets the mood for the whole sector. I agree that it is too big, but it is what it is.

Daryen,

It is what an obscure, late-GDW, few issue, poorly disseminated, fanzine says it is and nothing more. We need to examine the context here.

There are differing levels of canonicity within canonical products such as A:4's jump torpedos or the early Library Data regarding Capital. There are also differing levels of canonicity for entire products such as T4's "First Survey" or MT's "Fighting Ships of the Broken Imperium"(1). Just because a few issues of Imperiallines were published and just because GDW published them, it doesn't necessarily follow that Imperiallines is any good or should be regarded as canonical. We should note that Imperiallines is not mentioned in FFE's list of official canonical materials which can be found in any of the Reprints.

The information regarding the Avalar Consulate in Imperiallines fails on several levels. First, it violated what had almost entirely been a GM's preserve. That "preserve" status had been in place both prior to Imperiallines publication and was kept in place after it's publication. Sure, the Chamax DA is set in Foreven and another Foreven world can be found in Alien Realms, but the Imperiallines authors decided to map the entire sector.

Second, the admitedly scanty information about Foreven Imperiallines chose to introduce violated canon in a fundamental way. Not only is the Zhodani client state in Foreven too big not to have an influence on both the Darrians and Imperium, what we see of it in Foreven isn't all of it. Even more Avalar territory extends coreward into the Beyond Sector.

In a certain way, Imperiallines' poorly thought out Foreven material presages the similar, larger, and later canonical catastrophe of Behind the Claw. Both products introduced just enough new information to destroy or otherwise confuse pre-existing canon without also providing enough material to replace what had been wrecked.

The easiest solution here is to ignore the Imperiallines information is much the same manner we ignore BtC. If an individual or a group wants to flesh out Foreven into a sector ripe with political intrigue, Zho-Imperial cultural fusions, and loads other interesting stuff, let them do so for their own use only. Otherwise leave Foreven as it has always been, a preserve for GMs.

This continual and fervent desire to fill in each and every blank on the map may be fun for a few, but all it does is handcuff the majority.

Making many of the worlds poor or low population can mitigate a lot of that (maybe only the few "nice" worlds have decent populations).

It's four subsectors in Foreven alone. Besides, how many hi-pop worlds need there be for it to effect the Darrians? The Darrian Confederacy itself has only four hi-pop worlds and two of those have Class E starports.

The Avalar Consulate is too damn big and, like all of Imperiallines scanty Forven information, too poorly thought out. Better we should scrap the whole thing.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Or "Broken Ships of the Fighting Imperium" or "What a Pile of Crap".

 

[robject]

Thread Resurrect!

I have no problems with Zhodani client states in Foreven and I have no problems with multi-system Zho client states either. What I do have a problem with is a large Zho client state that controls nearly all of four subsectors. It's twice the size of the Swords and Darrians combined, it's one subsector away from the Five Sisters, and yet it's never been involved in any of the Frontier Wars?

A state that size should have had some small effect on the Imperium and it should have had a major effect on the Darrians. [...]

I suggest this as a possible solution: moving Hans' "Nomadic Space" up into the center of Foreven, from the border of the Zhodani Consulate right down the center corridor of the sector, bound on the spinward side by a combination of few-and-far-between planetary populations and jump obstacles, bound on the trailing side by a fuzzy border of lawlessness, a couple of jump-3 bridges, and no economic value.

Thus Avalar and Mnemosyne become weak and loose confederations, at best, and just a nominal title more likely, with political infighting over the scraps left after the Hordes take their prime cut. The TLs of these worlds would have to be revisited.

Nomad Domain: [A dozen or more subsectors] of space dominated by a unique starfaring nomadic culture. Seven hordes have divided the area's systems between them and lives by extorting what they need from the planetary populations. If they encounter resistance they bomb a part of the offending planet down to TL 0, which usually makes the rest of the planet toe the line. They stay for a year or two in each system, and then continue on to the next system. Before they leave a system they destroy as much of the local manufacturing capacity as possible, to ensure that the system will not grow strong enough to defy them when they return in 15 or 20 years. Rumor has it that in the few cases where a planet has succeeded in keeping a horde at bay, word has been sent to other hordes which thereupon have sent their own ships to help, resulting in the complete defeat and plundering of the planet in question.

History: The history of the Nomad Domain is not known in details. The area is believed to have been settled during the Ramshackle Empire and to have lost all knowledge of jump technology when the Long Night fell. Sometime in the First Century one planet must have regained jump capability and started to explore the neighboring worlds. Somehow some starships must have fallen into the hands of a primitive nomad tribe which used them to subjugate and plunder the original planet. They took slaves, and these slaves were forced to maintain the ships and build more.

An alternate theory has it that the nomads are the descendants of a beaten mercenary fleet from some unknown place that arrived in the area just as one or two planets were reaching TL 9. [Last update: 134-934]

That last theory might be a tie-in with the Star Raiders.

Allowing imagination to run with the idea, I can picture old fleets of large ships with very durable components (perhaps with a high burden to offset that advantage).

 

[Whipsnade]

I suggest this as a possible solution...

Robject,

It's far too late for any solution.

A Foreven sourcebook is going to be published for MgT and that book is going to incorporate materials from various sources, sources that use the Imperiallines' map and background.

The Avalar are in and the devil take the canonical consequences...

... as if Mongoose gives two hoots about canonical consequences anyway.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

A Foreven sourcebook is going to be published for MgT and that book is going to incorporate materials from various sources, sources that use the Imperiallines' map and background.

The Avalar are in and the devil take the canonical consequences...

Who knows. Maybe the author read my suggestion[*] on the recent thread on the Moongoose forum here and adopted it. It does, after all, have great dramatic possibilities.


[*] The Avalar Consulate is a recent creation. The Weltenbund was having major internal dissention, and somewhere around 1110 (while the Imperium was somewhat distracted), the Zhodani supported a takeover bid by Avalar. Most of the actual strength was supplied by Avalar and several allies.

This would allow the Moongoose version (as of 1105) to portray Foreven as a place riddled with tension and intrigue, with the Weltenbund moving inexorably towards civil war. A place with a lot of adventuring potential, wouldn't you say? AND it would reconcile two ostensibly contradictory canonical views, always a good thing.


Hans

 

[DonM]

I've come to prefer the pre-Imperiallines Foreven presented in The Imperium Staple and Continuum fanzines by Herb Petro.

I think that they better reflect what the sector should be than the later stuff does.

 

[robject]

It's far too late for any solution.

The only "too late" for me is "never".

 

[graymask1120]

Yet Another Thread Resurrect

I tripped over this thread again while pondering 'Horde', and started wondering...So, I went over to the Interactive Atlas, and on a hunch, pulled up a Jump-6 map of the area...Then, I shifted it one parsec.....

http://www.utzig.com/cgi-bin/iai/jump_map.pl?LOCLINE=96+99+0130&UID=

If you look around Garoo (SW/0130), there are an awful lot if "non-aligned" worlds that have "Captive Government/Colony" as their Gov type, and are listed as "client states".....Yet, there is no indication of an actual, organized polity.....

....Enter the Imperial Navy's "Office of Management Analysis" (Fleet Admiral F. Pickering, INR, Commanding), who trip over a devious plot by a shadowy group of oligarchs to "flip the switch", and create a pocket empire overnight....Are the Zho's behind it? Are the oligarchs just unknowing pawns of the Zho's, on the verge of being replaced by the real masterminds?.......

As to the big Avalar Consulate problem, I simply go with the "1930's Warlords of China" option: the Avalar were a local power a century or three ago, but they have been so battered by civil wars (some real, some manufactured - by both the Imperium, the Darrians and the Zhodani) for the last century, they are a polity in name only -- there are actually about 15-20 micro-states within the AvCon's four subsectors, who shift allegiance and ownership faster than a Vargr Corsair's crew.

 

[Whipsnade]

As to the big Avalar Consulate problem, I simply go with the "1930's Warlords of China" option: the Avalar were a local power a century or three ago, but they have been so battered by civil wars (some real, some manufactured - by both the Imperium, the Darrians and the Zhodani) for the last century, they are a polity in name only -- there are actually about 15-20 micro-states within the AvCon's four subsectors, who shift allegiance and ownership faster than a Vargr Corsair's crew.

While that's a good explanation, the problem then becomes explaining why the pre-Warlord Era Avalar Consulate didn't effect the Imperium and Darrians of that period.

The Avalar Consulate in Foreven alone - remember, even more of the Consulate extends in to the Beyond Sector - is over four times the size of the Darrian Confederation and Imperium's Five Sisters subsector. If it ever existed, it must have had some influence on both polities and yet no influence can be seen.

The truth of the matter is that the Avalar Consulate is the IRIS of Traveller astrography; a fanboy-created, poorly vetted, and even more poorly thought out tidbit which was sneaked into canon and now needs to be retconned into irrelevance or entirely out of existence.

 

[rancke]

The Avalar Consulate in Foreven alone - remember, even more of the Consulate extends in to the Beyond Sector - is over four times the size of the Darrian Confederation and Imperium's Five Sisters subsector. If it ever existed, it must have had some influence on both polities and yet no influence can be seen.

I repeat my previous suggestion (and take the opportunity to consolidate two separate posts):

In 1105, the Avalar Consulate is called the Weltenbund, a much looser neutral-leaning-towards-the-Imperium confederation originally settled from Ephraim/Diaspora during the Pacification Campaigns. Lying, as it does, much closer to the Consulate than to the Imperium, it has to be careful not to provoke the Zhodani, so it has striven to stay neutral in the conflict between the two and has very carefully not made any significant difference to the balance of power. But the Weltenbund was having major internal dissention at this time, and somewhere around 1110 (while the Imperium was somewhat distracted), the Zhodani supported a takeover bid by Avalar. Most of the actual strength was supplied by Avalar and several allies. They took over, renamed the Weltenbund to the Alvalar Consulate and allied themselves with the Zhodani Consulate.

So in 1105 Foreven is a place riddled with tension and intrigue, with the Weltenbund moving inexorably towards civil war. A place with a lot of adventuring potential. AND it would reconcile two ostensibly contradictory canonical views, always a good thing.


Hans

 

[graymask1120]

While that's a good explanation, the problem then becomes explaining why the pre-Warlord Era Avalar Consulate didn't effect the Imperium and Darrians of that period.

The Avalar Consulate in Foreven alone - remember, even more of the Consulate extends in to the Beyond Sector - is over four times the size of the Darrian Confederation and Imperium's Five Sisters subsector. If it ever existed, it must have had some influence on both polities and yet no influence can be seen.

The truth of the matter is that the Avalar Consulate is the IRIS of Traveller astrography; a fanboy-created, poorly vetted, and even more poorly thought out tidbit which was sneaked into canon and now needs to be retconned into irrelevance or entirely out of existence.

Ah, yes - but I thrive on challenges

As to the canonicity issue, I'm pretty liberal about it, overall. AISI, the canon angle only matters if you are writing for-profit, inside an officially-sanctioned Traveller Universe -- all else is strictly IMTU. As one example, 'Ral Ranta' [rollseyes] in the Hinterworlds is on the down-slide in MT, but AFAIK, little or no canon info about it exists for CT, T4 or GT/IW. Since I am running an on again-off again campaign set just prior to the Rim War, I simply decided that they had c.20% more systems on its 3I flanks, and ran with it.

For my version of the AvCon outlined above, I could say that until about c.550/3I, they were nothing but a 5-10 planet confederacy waaaaay the heck out in the gajda, that descends from another group trailing along behind the group that became the Swordies during the Long Night. At that point, however, "Situation 'X'" occurs (a population explosion, a wave of crusading spirit, their own 'Galtieri Effect', whatever...) that caused them to explode outwards, drawing the (unfortunate -- for them) attention of the Zho's, the Darrians and the 3I.....

...That way, there's enough room for them to have a big, honking polity, but said polity is like a micro-MT 3I whose pot keeps getting stirred, which is a reasonably accurate historical model, IMO.

 

[rancke]

But that's by the way. I don't think it's possible that no one learned about the existence of the Chamaxi within a century or two after people began jumping around the region after the Long Night. The Scouts were doing long-range surveys half-way down Trojan Reach in the 2nd Century. It's pretty unlikely that they didn't do the same in Foreven. Even if they didn't, the First Survey seems the absolutely latest one can put discovery by the Scouts. Then there are all those adventuresome merchants nosing around for good trade opportunities and colony expeditions heading for Foreven and poins spinward.

But that doesn't mean that anyone would remember the Chamaxi in 1105. One day in 700, at four o'clock in the afternoon, some visiting trader or Darrian patrol or Imperial Scout arrives and finds the Chamaxi gone and the world absolutely useless.

Actually, a bit of canon revision -- not really a revision, more like an addition -- would probably help, maybe an interdict imposed by the Scouts and some corporate intrique that gets the files about Chamax erased and the interdiction lifted, just so that InStarSpec can set up mining in the belt. But the local InStarSpec manager is kept in the dark because his superiors think that what he don't know he can't blab about to the MoJ agents.

I've been looking up this old discussion in connection with commenting on the first Liftoff adventure, and I was struck by a thought. Unfortunately, my copy of Double Adventure 5 is AWOL, so I can't check on the details myself, but IIRC Horde says something about the Chamax bugs arriving in last ditch STL evacuation spacecraft launched in the last days of the Chamaxi civilization. Does the text provide any clues to how long those spacecraft had been underway (and thus to the date of the destruction of Chamax)?


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

400 years.

 

[rancke]

400 years.

Thank you. So the 700 wasn't pulled out of thin air.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I've made a couple of die rolls and determined that (for my TU at least) the discovery of the destroyed Chamaxi civilization was made in 704. The Scouts subsequently investigated and placed the system under interdict in 707. InStarSpec suppressed the Scout files in 1079 and had the interdict lifted, then set up their mining operation in the belt in 1095.

Idle thought 1: Visitors to Chamax must have been very rare if it was a better bet to build spacecraft than to pay some outsiders to carry the evacuees to a neighboring system.

Idle thought 2: The evacuation must have been handled very clumsily if more than one ship was overrun by Chamax bugs just as they were launched.

Idle thought 3: Stocking up on shotguns and hand grenades ought to have helped hold the perimeter. The bugs are dangerous if you're not properly equipped, but they are no match for high explosive.


Hans

 

[robject]

704 - 707 - 1079 - 1095

Useful dates.

Idle thought 1: Visitors to Chamax must have been very rare [...]

Reasonable in more than one way.

Idle thought 2: The evacuation must have been handled very clumsily if more than one ship was overrun by Chamax bugs just as they were launched.

I always got the impression of a desperation of unpreparedness, so yes. On the other hand, they built ships that worked for 400 years without maintenance, so there's a serious disconnect between government and industry. In Traveller5 terms, that's a "Q" Quality rating of a fantastically amazing 12, corresponding to a maintenance period of centuries.

Apparently, these ships just sat there, open and inviting, and detected when a ship was full before launching. So in one aspect the ship's computer was very useful, and the ship was fully automated, but in another aspect the ship incapable of stopping Bugs from boarding.

Idle thought 3: Stocking up on shotguns and hand grenades ought to have helped hold the perimeter. The bugs are dangerous if you're not properly equipped, but they are no match for high explosive.

Yes, that's what Horde taught us. But also I think there was a swarm-effect that could wear down armies, and these critters advanced the lines of battle as fast as they could scuttle, needing no logistics or supply lines.

I think this aspect of speed and numbers was the tactic which kept Chamax sophonts off their guard.

 

[robject]

Back to Foreven for the moment:

What's the purpose of Foreven? I've always thought it could be to divert the Zhodani enough that their sham wars against the Imperium (come on, the last decent Zhodani effort was the Third War; the Fourth was an embarassment, and the Fifth humiliation) stay shams.

From what I know of the Zhodanis' motivations, that reason, which seems feeble to begin with, doesn't wash.

But come on--you and I have explored these arguments before, and the fact is that anything you find annoying about Foreven I find intriguing.

I actually do find your approach to existing material refreshing. You seek to organically work with what's there and polish it in interesting ways. However, some canon may simply be sacred cow.

 

[DonM]

I actually do find your approach to existing material refreshing. You seek to organically work with what's there and polish it in interesting ways. However, some canon may simply be sacred cow.

Moo...

However...

Are we supposed to be disagreeing in public? I lost my conspiracy notes just before the surgery, and I'll confess as to not reading things as carefully as perhaps I should be since.

Still, all of this requires a Traveller reference. As part of the Living Traveller adventures, I had been working on an Imperial Research Station in the Marches which was researching... bovine production. One of the ships involved in the sadness was the subsidized merchant 'Sacred Cow'.

I've been known to kick a good joke enough to turn it into... hamburger.

 

[robject]

Are we supposed to be disagreeing in public?

No no, we're supposed to pretend that we're in agreement on what defines the teaching authority of Traveller.

Then, we can stab each other behind our collective backs.

Or something like that?

(Also: Yaskoydray forbid that two Traveller players ever agree on anything...

Put another way: when two grognards agree on something, then be afraid...)