CT Only: Alien Module (AM) 3 page 44 and 45

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

In CT AM 3 the adventure provides background on the Gvurrdon Hvaek in the Vargr language of Arrghoun. Pages 44 and 45 provides an Anglic translation with 31 notes.

During the translation Note 17 indicates that 6 ly and Note 24 indicates 7 ly for Vargr starships of Gvurrdon's time period are about equal to Jump 2. The starship of the alien traders per Note 25 was capable of 10 ly or Jump 3.

The story relates that Gvurrdon returned with the traders to the capital world of their empire which took almost a year. The ship entered the boundaries of the alien empire after traveling approximately half of the almost year journey.

Note 29 states "That without more data, it is unclear whether this capital is Zhodani or Vland."

From the information provided in CT AM 6 Solomani the Ziru Sirka employed only starships with J-2 drive. The introduction of the J-3 drive during the Ninth Interstellar War by the Terrans, aka Solomani, tipped the war in their favor and by -2219 ended the Vilani Empire. (CT AM 6 page 5 text and Timeline page 12).

The story in CT AM 3 indicates that Gvurrdon left his home world prior to -2480 and returned with a J-3 starship after -2480 when Knurroe dominated his home world. Per the Integrated Timeline by Donald McKinney and the information on CT AM 3 page 47 the Gvurrdon Hvaek existed from -2700 to -2300.

MegaTraveller (MT) and GURPS Traveller (GT), IIRC, among other sources indicate that the Ziru Sirka froze themselves both in technology and in their expansion of the empire's borders.

Based on the information provided from the two sources I have referenced the Vilani cannot, in my opinion, be considered since they did not have J-3 starship drives.

 

[McPerth]

Hi Tom,

It's a longtime since I read it, and I have not time right now to dig in for it, but, IIRC, the adventure states that this trade post was in fact Zhodani.

Also, taken from Donald McKinney timeline:

-2800 c Makarin, a Zhodani trading combine, begins operating in the trailing frontiers of the Zhodani Consulate.
Alien Module 3 - Vargr, GDW, 1984, p. 45.

I'm not sure when did the Zhodani reach J3...

 

[rancke]

I think Tom's point was that there should be no doubt that at that time a J3 ship couldn't have come from the Vilani side. And presumably a glance at the Encyclopedia Galactica or the AAB library data collection would tell the PCs that the Zhodani did have J3 at that time.

(I'd love to have a timeline that set forth when the various people of Charted Space reached what jump level. I started a thread about that some years ago, but no one showed any interest in discussing it.)


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy McPerth,

Yep, it has been awhile since you last stopped by one of my topics with a reply.

Hi Tom,

It's a longtime since I read it, and I have not time right now to dig in for it, but, IIRC, the adventure states that this trade post was in fact Zhodani.

Yep, it has been awhile since you last stopped by one of my topics with a reply.

You are correct that in the referee material there are a couple of references that the traders where Zhodani. The notes that go with the Anglic translation of Gvurrdon's story on CT Alien Module (AM) 3 pages 44-45 provide the best information.

Also, taken from Donald McKinney timeline:

-2800 c Makarin, a Zhodani trading combine, begins operating in the trailing frontiers of the Zhodani Consulate.
Alien Module 3 - Vargr, GDW, 1984, p. 45.

CT AM 3 - Vargr Note 26 page 45 states that Makarin operated in the trailing frontiers from -2800 and -1800. The translated text on page 44 indicates that the base was being abandoned when Gvurrdon arrived.

I'm not sure when did the Zhodani reach J3...

Per the timeline on page 8 of CT AM 4 the Zhodani built J-1 starship drives in -5,415. Looking at the various star maps available J-1 allowed the Zhodani to cover a lot of territory before needing to improve the jump drive. However, there is little doubt that when the Gvurrdon met the Zhodani they had J-3 drives.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[snrdg082102]

Guten tag Hans (Hopefully I got the right words for Good afternoon PST),

I think Tom's point was that there should be no doubt that at that time a J3 ship couldn't have come from the Vilani side. And presumably a glance at the Encyclopedia Galactica or the AAB library data collection would tell the PCs that the Zhodani did have J3 at that time.

(I'd love to have a timeline that set forth when the various people of Charted Space reached what jump level. I started a thread about that some years ago, but no one showed any interest in discussing it.)


Hans

Yes, you summed up my verbose comments nicely.

I'm sorry I missed the topic thread about the timeline for coming up with a timeline when the people of Charted Space went from J-1 to the stages of J-2 through J-6. The only people that gives any information is for the Terrans and that timeline is very vague.

Thanks for the summary and reply.

 

[GypsyComet]

Note 29 states "That without more data, it is unclear whether this capital is Zhodani or Vland."

Gvurrdon's original account does not have enough information in it to make that call, even if our heroes do now have access to enough information.

Also, much of the Imperial history we can now refer to hadn't been written when AM3 came out. On top of that, Library Data was, at the time, a vast body of knowledge that you simply could not wander through casually. Note the wording in early adventures about accessing Library Data.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening GypsyComet,

Another individual I haven't heard from in awhile and I'm very glad to have a reply from.

Gvurrdon's original account does not have enough information in it to make that call, even if our heroes do now have access to enough information.

Also, much of the Imperial history we can now refer to hadn't been written when AM3 came out. On top of that, Library Data was, at the time, a vast body of knowledge that you simply could not wander through casually. Note the wording in early adventures about accessing Library Data.

I can't seem to find the wording about accessing the library data, of course whenever I looking for something for myself the sources always seem to hide them.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[rancke]

Gvurrdon's original account does not have enough information in it to make that call, even if our heroes do now have access to enough information.

Tom's point was that although the text says that our heroes can't make that call, something as simple as checking up on when Zhodani and Vilani reachede J3 would, in fact, enable them to make it.

Also, much of the Imperial history we can now refer to hadn't been written when AM3 came out. On top of that, Library Data was, at the time, a vast body of knowledge that you simply could not wander through casually. Note the wording in early adventures about accessing Library Data.

However primitive the library data are assumed to be, they must at least be advanced enough to match dead tree encyclopedias. And something as basic to an interstellar society as its ability to perform jumps has got to be fairly prominently featured in the main article about said society.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Tom's point was that although the text says that our heroes can't make that call, something as simple as checking up on when Zhodani and Vilani reachede J3 would, in fact, enable them to make it.


However primitive the library data are assumed to be, they must at least be advanced enough to match dead tree encyclopedias. And something as basic to an interstellar society as its ability to perform jumps has got to be fairly prominently featured in the main article about said society.


Hans

When did we reliably have the ability to fly Mach 1? The answer varies. Civilians can't still; the military routinely has since the 1960's...

The F-86 could go supersonic, but not reliably. This was proven in 1952 in a borrowed (F-86 variant) Canadair Saber 3. It wasn't designed for supersonic flight.

The 1954 F-104 went straight to a production model of Mach 2+...

So when was the first Mach-1 production fighter?

Was it the F-86 (a 1949 design)? The 1954 F-100?

Or any of the transonic regime non-supersonic fighters?

Sure, it's only a few years for military use. But we still don't have private aviation in the supersonic regime, and corporate civil aviation ceased supersonic operation.

So, if someone comes back with a supersonic light jet, knowing we've had the capability to build them since 1954, can we say for sure he got it here?

By the same token, the "hard dates" given for J-X are probably far from the whole story Does the average person in the 3I have access to even J5 travel? And that's with the 3I having had J5 for a century or more. Would the Zhodani have been selling the J3 drives? Especially to a Vargr? Perhaps they didn't; perhaps they've flat out denied the claim in prior investigations, and he instead stole one and lied.

Perhaps the 3I didn't realize the Zhodani had it then; it's not like Zho Historians are typically amongst the military forces. Or, perhaps they know, but don't want to admit that the Zhos had it.

 

[GypsyComet]

By the same token, the "hard dates" given for J-X are probably far from the whole story Does the average person in the 3I have access to even J5 travel? And that's with the 3I having had J5 for a century or more. Would the Zhodani have been selling the J3 drives? Especially to a Vargr? Perhaps they didn't; perhaps they've flat out denied the claim in prior investigations, and he instead stole one and lied.

Perhaps the 3I didn't realize the Zhodani had it then; it's not like Zho Historians are typically amongst the military forces. Or, perhaps they know, but don't want to admit that the Zhos had it.

All viewed through the lens of four thousand years of subsequent history.

 

[aramis]

All viewed through the lens of four thousand years of subsequent history.

Including 4 wars, and a lot of hatred.
Plus the crisp clarity of game rules.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening aramis,

When did we reliably have the ability to fly Mach 1? The answer varies. Civilians can't still; the military routinely has since the 1960's...

The F-86 could go supersonic, but not reliably. This was proven in 1952 in a borrowed (F-86 variant) Canadair Saber 3. It wasn't designed for supersonic flight.

The 1954 F-104 went straight to a production model of Mach 2+...

So when was the first Mach-1 production fighter?

Was it the F-86 (a 1949 design)? The 1954 F-100?

Or any of the transonic regime non-supersonic fighters?

Sure, it's only a few years for military use. But we still don't have private aviation in the supersonic regime, and corporate civil aviation ceased supersonic operation.

So, if someone comes back with a supersonic light jet, knowing we've had the capability to build them since 1954, can we say for sure he got it here?

I do not see how the progression of jump drive development can be compared with the development of aircraft that fly at supersonic or higher speeds. Each civilization that developed jump drives, at least how I understand the material, started at J-1 and progressed to J-6 over a period of time. Almost from the various source materials all the drives operate basically the same.

CT Book 5 High Guard is primarily for designing, in my opinion, warships and CT Book 2 Starships for civilian. The major difference a least in my opinion is the weapons they employ. Book 2 allows vessels to carry missiles, lasers, and sandcasters in turrets. Book 5 adds plasma, fusion, particle accelerator, and meson guns. The warships can mount weapons in a spinal mount, bays, and/or turrets, however from CT Supplement 5 Azhanti High Lightning, IIRC, there is something about disabling the spinal mount along with certain types of bay and turret weapons for those hulls sold to commercial concerns. My guess is that most of the governments almost restrict law abiding civilians from using nuclear warheads on there missiles, on the other hand illegal types probably use them hoping they won't be caught.

By the same token, the "hard dates" given for J-X are probably far from the whole story Does the average person in the 3I have access to even J5 travel? And that's with the 3I having had J5 for a century or more. Would the Zhodani have been selling the J3 drives? Especially to a Vargr? Perhaps they didn't; perhaps they've flat out denied the claim in prior investigations, and he instead stole one and lied.

The hard dates for when each civilization progressed from J-1 each of the other drives would depend on a lot of factors. Looking at the Vargr J-1 drive was developed in -3810 and limited them to, by my count, 17 worlds. Depending on which date used from CT AM 3 the Vargr were regularly using J-2 drives prior to -2700, CT AM 3 page 47, or -2,480, CT AM 3 Note 12 page 45.

I doubt that the majority of average citizens in the 3I who is not interested or a spacer cares about jump drives.

Per Gvurrdon's story he stole the J-3 starship which was eventually acquired by Prince Knorroe. Prince Knorroe used the ship as a model to create a fleet of Jump 3 starships that he used to create the Gvurrdon Hvaek.

Perhaps the 3I didn't realize the Zhodani had it then; it's not like Zho Historians are typically amongst the military forces. Or, perhaps they know, but don't want to admit that the Zhos had it.

The 3I did not exist at the time Gvurrdon lived, however IIRC, the 3I sector Core subsector G: Core world Capital in hex 2118 was part of the Ziru Sirka the and the world of Capital was known as Sylea back then.

CT Supplement 8, copyright 1980/81, provides some background on the First Imperium, unfortunately I seem to remember some source, but not mentioning that after achieving J-2 and reaching a certain size the Ziru Sirka froze in place. Unfortunately, I can't remember where that nugget of information came from. Which means I may be in error. CT AM 3 has a copyright of 1984.

According to CT AM 3 page 2 the year is 1111 3I dating. A party of all Vargr going on the adventure probably wouldn't know that the Ziru Sirka didn't have J-3 at the time. An Imperial human tagging along with the Vargr or a party of Imperials may know something about the Ziru Sirka and their jump drive capability or at least know where to look for the information.

I'll agree that the 3I probably doesn't know or even care when the Zhodani developed J-3 drives in 1111.

Hopefully I am making sense with the above.

 

[Vladika]

Sure, it's only a few years for military use. But we still don't have private aviation in the supersonic regime, and corporate civil aviation ceased supersonic operation.

This is very true but perhaps it should be noted that termination was due to high operating costs, primarily fuel. Hopefully those issues will be solved by the time of common space travel such as the OTU.

Aérospatiale-BAC Concorde is a retired turbojet-powered supersonic passenger airliner or supersonic transport (SST). It is one of only two SSTs to have entered commercial service; the other was the Tupolev Tu-144.

 

[GypsyComet]

I do not see how the progression of jump drive development can be compared with the development of aircraft that fly at supersonic or higher speeds. Each civilization that developed jump drives, at least how I understand the material, started at J-1 and progressed to J-6 over a period of time. Almost from the various source materials all the drives operate basically the same.

Aramis' point is that it was a significant technological development with a "smeared" introduction date of 50-odd years and counting. Will they look back at us, 500 years from now, and know exactly when super-sonic flight was fully integrated into our way of life, or will it be "over the course of the 20th and 21st Centuries" because records we think of as eternal were lost in the Flame Deluge, used formats they no longer had access to, and took place on a planet they no longer consider a political ally.

 

[aramis]

Aramis' point is that it was a significant technological development with a "smeared" introduction date of 50-odd years and counting. Will they look back at us, 500 years from now, and know exactly when super-sonic flight was fully integrated into our way of life, or will it be "over the course of the 20th and 21st Centuries" because records we think of as eternal were lost in the Flame Deluge, used formats they no longer had access to, and took place on a planet they no longer consider a political ally.

An astute read of my intent.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello aramis and GypsyComet,

I do not see how the progression of jump drive development can be compared with the development of aircraft that fly at supersonic or higher speeds. Each civilization that developed jump drives, at least how I understand the material, started at J-1 and progressed to J-6 over a period of time. Almost from the various source materials all the drives operate basically the same.

Aramis' point is that it was a significant technological development with a "smeared" introduction date of 50-odd years and counting. Will they look back at us, 500 years from now, and know exactly when super-sonic flight was fully integrated into our way of life, or will it be "over the course of the 20th and 21st Centuries" because records we think of as eternal were lost in the Flame Deluge, used formats they no longer had access to, and took place on a planet they no longer consider a political ally.

An astute read of my intent.

I have never claimed to be to swift on getting some points, or for that matter making clear and concise points. Of course I will claim as an excuse that my attention was divided between posting and the crown that popped off my tooth on 12/22/13.

GypsyComet thanks for clearing up what aramis was saying for the simple minded retired old submarine sailor. ;-)

 

[GypsyComet]

Of course I will claim as an excuse that my attention was divided between posting and the crown that popped off my tooth on 12/22/13.

Dental emergencies are like that, yes.

 

[snrdg082102]

Late PST Morning all,

Between the help of the people who have posted replies and further thought there has been a slight change in my conclusion that the Vilani could be eliminated as the aliens Gvurrdon met.

Vargr characters from the Vargr Extents reading the story the 3I year of 1111 probably would guess the aliens encountered by Gvurrdon were Vilani.

Imperials, Vargr or Humaniti, have a slight chance of guessing that the aliens Gvurrdon encountered were not Vilani if one or more of the characters had some interest in the Ziru Sirka might know that the First Imperium used only J-2.

However, the odds are probably better that even Imperial citizens in 1111 would guess that the aliens where Vilani.

Thanks for the help.