(Because Vilani aren't Homo sapiens!!! Nyah, nyah, nyah, Hans!)
Ahem... I'm pretty sure the scientific name for Vilani is Homo sapiens vlandensis. (or something very similar)
Alienating Your Vilani Pronunciation
- Thread starter sayatmenace
- Start date
Ahem... I'm pretty sure the scientific name for Vilani is Homo sapiens vlandensis. (or something very similar)
(Because Vilani aren't Homo sapiens!!! Nyah, nyah, nyah, Hans!
In your TU they're evidently not. In the OTU, they are. That's just a basic inescapable fact[*], so there! Nyah, nyah, nyah, right back at you!
[*] Unless you can persuade Marc Miller to retcon it, and good luck with that[**].
[**] And if you do manage to persuade him, they're still going to be Homo sapiens IMTU.
Well, that's easy. The name is pronounced exactly like the job.
Hans
Now that bit I don't understand, but something tells me it's a local rude word or the like...
:devil:
No, it's a job. Someone responsible for the buildings and implements of an estate. 'Lade' is a barn; 'foged' is an official in local or regional administration. 'Barn-reeve' might be a reasonably direct translation.
Hans
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How is it pronounced?
Ahem... that's circular reasoning.
"Throat-Warbler Mangrove".
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Wikipedia has a pronunciation guide right after Dr Ladefoged's name. Mouse over it if you need any further help. His old UCLA webpage also has a direct link to an .aiff file that would be immensely useful... if it still worked. It could be just my PC though, so maybe it's worth somebody else trying it out.
I'm betting that's a very Anglicized pronunciation though, and not quite the same thing as the Danish occupation. I'd hazard a guess based on how a Swede would say it, but I suspect Hans would think I was either drunk or having a stroke if I walked up to him and said it that way.
Yeah, well, Swedes... They speak like they don't have potatos in their mouths.
I've forgotten too much of my University learning to say for sure, but I think the phonetic spelling in Wikipedia is accurate. I believe the whole point of phonetic spelling that it should enable people to pronounce unfamiliar phonemes correctly, eliminating such things as Anglicized pronounciation. But I won't swear to it.
Hans
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
That depends entirely on the Swede. And how cold it is at the time he's saying it.
I get you, but we're talking about a surname here. Those tend to get pretty mangled outside of the home country, regardless of the original pronunciation. Me, I was going for a long 'a' and a 'yeh' at the g, but I gather that's way off.
Oh, hey... wasn't there a Traveller conversation around here somewhere?
If I may contest:
The original Solomani Hypothesis text says Archaic Homo sapiens were lifted from Terra, and there needn't be anything at all wrong with that, even today. AHS is a blanket term that covers a number of different (currently known) examples of later human -- H. heidelbergensis, neanderthalensis, denisova, sapiens, maybe even antecessor -- pretty much everybody who shows up after Homo egaster/erectus. Except the hobbits, I guess. Genetic data also seems to confirm that every one of these guys was interfertile with sapiens too. Except the hobbits, I guess.
For the record, I know AHS isn't universally used; the term itself is even considered archaic in some circles. But it still has its adherents, and who's to say what the scientists of 3,000 years from now will think of it?
Now, out of the AHS crowd, my understanding is that Terra of 300,000 years ago had late heidelbergensis, early neanderthalensis and (judging from the genetic evidence) either denisova or a (sub)species that was on its way to becoming denisova. Outside the AHS sphere there was also a dwindling collection of erectus variants. Of these, both heidelbergensis and neanderthalensis have been occasionally labeled a subspecies of sapiens (more so with the latter). Admittedly, this would be hard to see in the earliest heidelbergensis skulls (around -800,000), but by Grandfather's day the archaic traits were definitely on their way out.
This is all real-world stuff (well, except for the Grandfather parts). Now consider the whoopty-doo universe of Traveller, in which Heroic Space Anthropologists of the Far Future are regularly exposed to over 80 different varieties of human -- both living and extinct. Imagine the white papers! When you've witnessed, empirically, how wildly different Humaniti really can get, then those little differences of morphology separating us from heidelbergensis may not seem enough to keep them out of the sapiens country club. Heck, that may even be enough to finally bump the chimps over into our genus too, for that matter.
Regarding language: I don't know when or at what rate human linguistic ability evolved (nobody really does, right?), but I do think that it's a continuum, and my personal belief is that it's been brewing since around erectus times (between 1-2 million years ago). From a Traveller perspective, on the other hand, there must have been advanced language capability in our ancestors by -300,000. If there hadn't been then we would not have been of much use to Yaskodray -- unless he was just in the market for a particularly ugly and disagreeable pet.
I also have some commentary on your phonology ideas, but I'm cutting this one off here, to avoid the dreaded 'wall of text' effect.
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Certainly they don't have to, and that especially goes for the language as it stood (stands?) in the years before Terran contact. However, 3,400 years of subordination to a higher status pronunciation scheme is bound to have an... effect... on a language.
Wait! no! Wait! Here's why I like them as bilabials:
Assume for a minute that none of the above consonants are dentals (which isn't that hard to imagine) and you have an opening for a phonetic structure with powerful social implications -- particularly when you consider the grave consequences of exposing your teeth to any hominid besides Homo sapiens. In short: Vilani don't bare their teeth! That's not to say that saying 'va-va-va-VOOM', 'Farrah's favorite fluffy fudge' or 'thufferin' thuccotash!' to an unprepared Vilani would immediately cause him to fly into a rage, but he might find the sight a bit... disturbing.
But then what of the term 'Vilani' itself? How in the world would a language and people acquire a name that starts with a consonant they wouldn't dare pronounce?
My idea, then, is to make <p b> into bilabial affricates. I like this for three reasons: 1) it's not very well attested in any Terrestrial languages I've ever heard of, 2) it makes for extra fun Solomani-Vilani friction and, 3) it explains why Anglic speakers insist on referring to Bilanidin as 'Vilani'.
That could work, although it does mess with how I currently articulate my <r> consonants. I habitually dance between a uvular trill or uvular approximant/fricative; this would make the trill version a bit more rare.
OTHER THOUGHTS:
I like making <sh kh> simply aspirated versions of <s k>, but that's just me. It sort of provides for a fossilized remnant of the voiceless glottal fricative, a consonant that barely survived in a few high status words into the late Old High Vilani era (e.g. 'sarpuhii') before finally dying out.
You didn't mention double letters, but I will. I much prefer them representing exactly as they seem -- length of pronunciation. This goes for consonants as well as vowels. It gives the language a very different rhythm than the agitated, bouncy syllable stressing of Anglic and its IE relatives.
Oh by all means, do. I personally regard the current tone system as kludgy and redundant. If you come up with Something Completely Different, I'd love to hear about it.
As for vowels: just remember not to glide them, and you'll get no flaming from me.
sayatmenace
SOC-11
Heh. Actually, I put that wrongly: I'm sure that most of the people who studied under him or worked with him personally knew how to pronounce his name. But certainly not many of the huge number of people who read and referred to his work over the years. Globally speaking, not many linguists would be likely to recognize it as a Danish name, and even then it's not that likely they'd know how to pronounce it correctly
Vilani phonology -- past, present, and future -- is never going to be as peculiar and formidable as Danish, IMO!
Vilani phonology -- past, present, and future -- is never going to be as peculiar and formidable as Danish, IMO!
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Or Chef.
http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=bork&url=http://farfuture.net
Mr. Anderson said:
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G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
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[/FONT]What's really weird is how much that looks like Dutch.[FONT=arial,helvetica]
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No. Not really. I'm experienced with that language...
Maybe Finnish, with some extra consonants thrown in... I don't know any other Terran language that has that many double vowels.
