Alienating Your Vilani Pronunciation

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

No. Not really. I'm experienced with that language...
Maybe Finnish, with some extra consonants thrown in... I don't know any other Terran language that has that many double vowels.

No. Not really. The words aren't nearly long enough to be Finnish, and there are no seemingly randomly-placed umlauts anywhere in sight.

Also:

Or... the biologically-sophisticated Terrans, back in the Interstellar Wars or the early Rule of Man, gene-tinkered the Vilani to be interfertile with Terrans. To make their women impregnable with decent human babies, and breed the backwards dead-end Vilani right out of existence!

Dude, you clearly don't know how to think like a racist. The last thing you want to do when confronted with a teeming collection of subhumans is figure out a way of creating a whole new mongrel race out of them. The only decent human babies are the ones that come from two decent human parents, not a naive human male and some gene-thieving, seductive temptress from beyond the stars.

Your lack of concern for genetic hygiene is of deep concern to the Party. Please return your SolSec card to your local org headquarters while we evaluate your current membership status. You should also expect a request for a saliva sample and a notarized authenticated copy of your family tree.

 

[sayatmenace]

It's written Ladefoged but said Throatwobbler Mangrove, am I right?

No. "Throatwobbler Mangrove" is easily pronounced by human throats. The more I read about Danish phonology, the clearer it becomes that it is the ab-natural patois of hideous, capering demoniac cultists dedicated to hastening the swift return of the Outer Gods.

( !!!)

 

[sayatmenace]

Dude, you clearly don't know how to think like a racist. The last thing you want to do when confronted with a teeming collection of subhumans is figure out a way of creating a whole new mongrel race out of them. The only decent human babies are the ones that come from two decent human parents, not a naive human male and some gene-thieving, seductive temptress from beyond the stars.

Your lack of concern for genetic hygiene is of deep concern to the Party. Please return your SolSec card to your local org headquarters while we evaluate your current membership status. You should also expect a request for a saliva sample and a notarized authenticated copy of your family tree.

(Scuttles off in abject humiliation to expiate the blood-shame.)

 

[sayatmenace]

My idea, then, is to make <p b> into bilabial affricates. I like this for three reasons: 1) it's not very well attested in any Terrestrial languages I've ever heard of, 2) it makes for extra fun Solomani-Vilani friction and, 3) it explains why Anglic speakers insist on referring to Bilanidin as 'Vilani'.

Ladies and gentlemen, observe me bow to an even greater linguistic kinkoid than myself.

I like making <sh kh> simply aspirated versions of <s k>, but that's just me.

No, not just you. I like it too.

a few high status words into the late Old High Vilani era (e.g. 'sarpuhii') before finally dying out.

Yeah, well, I would dearly love to expunge all those T0-era Babylonian graftings from Vilani. They just stood out like a sore thumb and screamed "CHEESY NUDGE-NUDGE WINK LOOK AT THE HOMAGE MA!"

Yes, I realize I packed our version of Vilani in the late '90s full of Sumerian (and a few Georgian) lexemes. I soooo regret that. But, at least they fit the canonical Vilani orthography~phonology.

You didn't mention double letters, but I will. I much prefer them representing exactly as they seem -- length of pronunciation. This goes for consonants as well as vowels.

Yep, same here. Though I've most often taken the "double vowels" (<ii aa uu>, I mean) to be distinct phonemes and not simply long versions of <i a u> -- probably just because they were distinguished in the original d6 word-gen tables. Which is not a good enough reason, really

As for vowels: just remember not to glide them, and you'll get no flaming from me.

If you mean the acres of computer-misgenerated Vilani names that the Traveller universe has been paved over with since T:0 days, I could not agree more. It makes me long for Virus every time I see a "Vilani name" like "Iiiuaakh".

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

a few high status words into the late Old High Vilani era (e.g. 'sarpuhii') before finally dying out.

Yeah, well, I would dearly love to expunge all those T0-era Babylonian graftings from Vilani. They just stood out like a sore thumb and screamed "CHEESY NUDGE-NUDGE WINK LOOK AT THE HOMAGE MA!"

Actually, I believe 'sarpuhii' is a GURPS violation. AFAIK its first appearance is in Interstellar Wars, although if I'm wrong I'd appreciate someone correcting me on that. While an otherwise quite decent work, GURPS: IW is also unfortunately notable (at least by me) for its attempts to pass off godawful gibberish for Vilani.

Back a few years ago when I was building sound change files for Vilani, one of the ones I created built Old High Vilani words out of Standard Vilani, based largely on already existing examples of OHV-SV relationships. I don't quite remember how the SC rule for -'uhii' was exactly resolved, but I do distinctly recall that one of the side effects was turning the Standard Vilani word 'Makhidkarun' into OHV 'Makhidkaruhii'.

Yep, same here. Though I've most often taken the "double vowels" (<ii aa uu>, I mean) to be distinct phonemes and not simply long versions of <i a u> -- probably just because they were distinguished in the original d6 word-gen tables. Which is not a good enough reason, really

There could be room for both choices, either in terms of dialect, etymology or both. As I understand it, there is in fact at least one prominent real-world example of this already happening -- in the relationship between Classical Latin pronunciation (duration) and Vulgar/Late Latin (phonetics).

If you mean the acres of computer-misgenerated Vilani names that the Traveller universe has been paved over with since T:0 days, I could not agree more. It makes me long for Virus every time I see a "Vilani name" like "Iiiuaakh".

Yech. That's not a name, that's the sound of a Vilani being strangled to death by an Aslan.

 

[sayatmenace]

Actually, I believe 'sarpuhii' is a GURPS violation. AFAIK its first appearance is in Interstellar Wars, although if I'm wrong I'd appreciate someone correcting me on that. While an otherwise quite decent work, GURPS: IW is also unfortunately notable (at least by me) for its attempts to pass off godawful gibberish for Vilani.

I feel pretty certain that G:T only perpetuated the sins of T:0 -- I don't have the materials to hand, but have a strong memory of the nobility of the Ziru Sirka being itemized in the main T:0 sourcebook in blatantly, gloriously, stupidly, shittily Mesopotamian terminology.

Yech. That's not a name, that's the sound of a Vilani being strangled to death by an Aslan.

I'm not opposed to that scenario for plot purposes. For linguistic purposes? I KEEL YUU!!

Many years ago I corresponded with someone who was working on a manuscript involving the Vilani, for (IIRC) GURPS:Trav. I honestly don't remember his name, but feel pretty certain I'd recognize it if I saw it in anything actually published (e.g., GT:Interstellar Wars), so feel OK about dishing. Anyway, we squabbled about Vilani word generation. He had some app he'd got from somewhere, one of the "Uuuiakh" kind of generators. His argument was that it was the most recent work of art he had found, and was therefore the preferred and correct source. I tried to argue that the preferred source was the original one, way back in JTAS... 7? 8? I forget. Perhaps that's why I lost that argument. Or perhaps a lack of vim, in general.

Of all the things that have made me cringe from my comp-sci peeps upon contact, this was one of the chief incidents. I know a lot of CS nerds who are also very interested in and well-informed about natural languages; don't get me wrong. It was more the methodological gap. He could not give any credence to the idea that an earlier release would be more accurate or desirable than a later one; it was nearly if not actually a logical impossibility for him. Trained in philology (inter alia), my own instinct was of course to squirm back to the earliest text available, and work out from there. Me: archeologist; him: engineer.

Anyway... I have the sense that the engineers have won, and Vilani is not the only victim of the half-assed, sloppy approach to world-building in the Trav Universe. Why do I still look back to MegaTrav days with pleasure? They proofread their text, if not their equations.

EDIT: I agree that G:T has done a great deal to spread kaka-bilani through the multiverse, but feel that they did so simply because their editors/writers chose to take the most recent publications (i.e. T:0) as their default template.

Wow. I come across as such a reactionary, don't I? Heh

 

[sayatmenace]

Still trying to find a way to record speech on my computer; not trying real hard, I will admit -- anyway, no success yet. Nevertheless, I still do mean to record some 'Alienated Vilani' files, contrasting with more conventional/SAE pronunciations.

 

[aramis]

Me: archeologist; him: engineer.
[...]
Wow. I come across as such a reactionary, don't I? Heh [/B]

No. Just as a social scientist rightly peeved at bad methodology.

History, archaeology, and anthropology tend to look at oldest source as primary; then newest source with good citations of oldest sources as most current as best interpretations of oldest sources.

I've noticed that divide strongly in my local Traveller fans - the social sciences types all look to CT for answers to setting issues; the engineers all look at the most current ruleset. The two Econ majors both looked to GURPS.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

I feel pretty certain that G:T only perpetuated the sins of T:0 -- I don't have the materials to hand, but have a strong memory of the nobility of the Ziru Sirka being itemized in the main T:0 sourcebook in blatantly, gloriously, stupidly, shittily Mesopotamian terminology.

Ah, yes. T:0 -- the yawning gap in my knowledge of the Traveller universe. At least when it comes to fine detail.

His argument was that it was the most recent work of art he had found, and was therefore the preferred and correct source. I tried to argue that the preferred source was the original one, way back in JTAS... 7? 8? I forget. Perhaps that's why I lost that argument. Or perhaps a lack of vim, in general.

As an engineer-type, you'd think he would have been concerned with the fact that his app wasn't generating results consistent with the established phonotype. Isn't 'GIGO' right up there with 'RTFM' as part of their Holy Canon?

EDIT: I agree that G:T has done a great deal to spread kaka-bilani through the multiverse, but feel that they did so simply because their editors/writers chose to take the most recent publications (i.e. T:0) as their default template.

For the record, I'm generally quite pleased with the GURPS:Trav material I've come across. Sure, they've dropped a few clinkers, but I've never gotten the impression that it was out of negligence or disdain for the prior art. They always seemed to be trying very hard to maintain socio-historical consistency in their interpretation of the OTU* -- something I'm not terribly convinced is the case with other systems.

Wow. I come across as such a reactionary, don't I? Heh

Other than your professed desire to burn Vilani down to the ground and rebuild the entire thing from scratch? Well, sure... yeah... I guess so...

---------------------------

​

*Other than, you know, that whole 'no Rebellion/Virus' thing.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Still trying to find a way to record speech on my computer; not trying real hard, I will admit -- anyway, no success yet. Nevertheless, I still do mean to record some 'Alienated Vilani' files, contrasting with more conventional/SAE pronunciations.

Are you planning on clewing us in on your interpretation of tonality first? Or are you simply going to spring that on us in the files?

Or are you just going to pretend it doesn't exist for now?

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

No. Just as a social scientists rightly peeved at bad methodology.

The university I attended felt so strongly about this that they made every new student take an entire class on just this topic alone, regardless of their intended disciplines.

History, archaeology, and anthropology tend to look at oldest source as primary; then newest source with good citations of oldest sources as most current as best interpretations of oldest sources.

Historians go to the primary sources for facts, and to the later (compiled) resources for interpretation and/or critique. Uncovering a new primary source (or a clearly older version of a currently existing one) is the historian's equivalent of nirvana... even if it seemingly always takes at least a generation or two to establish the work's authenticity.

I've noticed that divide strongly in my local Traveller fans - the social sciences types all look to CT for answers to setting issues; the engineers all look at the most current ruleset. The two Econ majors both looked to GURPS.

Possibly because GURPS:Trav has the most sensible trading rules of the bunch (or so I've heard)?

 

[aramis]

The university I attended felt so strongly about this that they made every new student take an entire class on just this topic alone, regardless of their intended disciplines.

Historians go to the primary sources for facts, and to the later (compiled) resources for interpretation and/or critique. Uncovering a new primary source (or a clearly older version of a currently existing one) is the historian's equivalent of nirvana... even if it seemingly always takes at least a generation or two to establish the work's authenticity.

Possibly because GURPS:Trav has the most sensible trading rules of the bunch (or so I've heard)?

No, because they're GURPS fanatics, and have been for years. One of them is as unfond of GT:FT as I am...

 

[sayatmenace]

Are you planning on clewing us in on your interpretation of tonality first? Or are you simply going to spring that on us in the files?

Or are you just going to pretend it doesn't exist for now?

Um... neither, and settle for more thread necromancy? Sorry, I got distracted and the whole project drifted into the back of a dusty drawer again. I remember that I failed to fully commit to my new take on Vilani tonality; I had some competing desires/models that couldn't really be reconciled.

 

[sayatmenace]

Blandulating your Vilani grammar

Wow, even for me, this is some record-setting ball-dropping.

I apologize; the sheer incessant demand for more and more TravLangery must have simply burned out the channels, and I stopped getting all the news and discussion!

Unlike a lot of conlangers, phonology really doesn't turn my crank -- I've always found tinkering with morphosyntax way more rewarding. But for reasons totally opaque to me, I've now realized that Vilani should have been fixed up with really simple, familiar, boring grammar. I know, I know -- people told me, back in the '90s. And why now? Well, the Muse of conlanging sneaks up and rabbit-punches you on her own mysterious timeline.

So I'm currently fiddling around with making a 'Vilani' grammar that's basically a relexification of standard modern Chinese. No, it's not English or SAE, but come on -- in terms of simplicity and regularity and ease of learning, Chinese makes Esperanto look like... I don't even know what. Coptic. Tocharian. Like someone who only speaks Coptic trying to teach you Tocharian. It'll be fun, trust me!

(OK, there may be a bit of Yoruba slipping into the mix too.)

I may end up back on the TML instead of here, but if so will engage in one more act of thread necromancy to say where'll I post anything -- so that not even one of the vast and teeming community of Vilani language enthusiasts gets left behind!