All-in-one attack mechanic

[robject]

Idly thinking about attack mechanics. "Idly" here means I don't own, for example, Power Projection, but I do own High Guard and Mayday and T5 and BR et al.

1. ASSUME an attack can be stopped by AT MOST one active and one passive defense, with values (factors) from 0 to 9. Use the highest applicable values, and assume they represent defenses acting together.

2. ASSUME an attack has a TL and one primary parameter, Attack Strength (ATT), with a value (factor) from 1 to 34.

3. ASSUME a ship can be represented by something like the USP from HG.

4. ASSUME numbered range bands from 0 to 14, with 8 being long range, and 9+ being beyond the range of combat.


THEN


Attack difficulty = Range + Active Defense - Attack Strength. Min 2.
Target number = Attack TL - Passive Defense.


Critical hit if Difficulty(dice) <= Target.


Example.

Range 7, TL 15, ATT 10, Active defense 5, Passive defense 5.
Difficulty = 2D (7 + 5 - 10 = 2, minimum is 2).
Target = 15 - 5 = 10.
Crit when 2D <= 10.

Analysis.

One TL difference in otherwise equal ships does not result in overwhelming advantage. This could be fixed by swapping attack strength and TL. Attack strength does enjoy a potentially great range of values, so this might be a viable option.


MODIFICATION


Attack difficulty = Range + Active Defense - Attack TL. Min 2.
Target number = Attack Strength - Passive Defense.

Example.
Range 7, TL 15, ATT 10, Active defense 5, Passive defense 5.
Difficulty = 2D (7 + 5 - 15 = 2, minimum is 2).
Target = 10 - 5 = 5.
Crit when 2D <= 5.

Analysis.

In this sample, the attack strength was considerably blunted by the defenses, resulting in a low chance of success at that range. I think the granularity in this variant will probably be helpful.

As TL goes up, effective attack range increases.

On 2D tasks, attack ratings 11 and up typically always cause crits in ships without armor or other passive defenses.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've always liked all-in-one or combined rolls--throws that serve more than one purpose.

The old Top Secret/SI system is a perfect example. For hand-to-hand combat, one throw tells you if you hit, where you hit, and how much damage you did.

Star Wars D6, First Edition, combined initiative with the actual task roll. Rather, it had no initiative throw. If two people are firing at each other--say a Rebel and a stormtrooper--then both make task roll to hit each other. But the single throw is first used as initiative--the higher throw is considered first. That's who got his shot off first. And, the consequences of that throw are considered. If he missed the target, then the second throw is considered to see if it hit.

Neat, quick system.

I've often thought about applying some of these concepts to Traveller.

 

[robject]

My thoughts exactly - including the Top Secret reference.

Why bother rolling to hit if you don't do damage? And why bother rolling against every possible defense in a supremely technical simulation..... if the game is unplayable?

On the other hand, I assume High Guard was, and is, played, and the people who like designing Big Ships also like rolling multiple times for a hit. So in a sense, I am NOT the person to be suggesting alternate mechanics for a fleet battle game. Instead, I represent everyone who likes the idea of Big Ship battles but does not like rolling dice so much.

 

[casquilho]

I like the concept. It would make ship to ship combat faster and maybe even add to the overall feel of it. But I would want to see more to know for sure.

I say keep exploring it and see how it comes out.

 

[Matt123]

also like rolling multiple times for a hit.

FWIW, I only ever tried to do that once, in my first game, in the first turn using the first and biggest ship. Ever since I have used statistical resolution, typically using the guidance in TCS. Which I am sure you already know of. I only roll dice at around the 15-20 dice mark.

Aren't you really looking to remove the certainty that mass die rolling gives¹ and add luck back into the game by minimising die rolls? In effect, for example, replacing 215 Tigress missile die rolls with one. It has been observed numerous times HG rewards good fleet design, perhaps throwing a little randomness into the result wouldn't be a bad thing in moderation and might encourage novice designers to have a go.

IMO the biggest flaw in HG is the design hurdle, both the time required and gaining the experience to design effective ships. Its also the bit I like and reducing the time required is one reason I knocked out (another) CT ship designer.

Just some thoughts on your algorithm.

• From the description it was not immediately obvious what the outcome of parts of the algorithm is. For example the attack difficulty results in the number of die to roll, not a target number on a fixed number of die.
• HG uses hit, penetrate, damage as its dynamic. The system proposed is hit, damage. The core difference is subsuming penetration into the hit roll with the consequence that the defending player no longer plays an active part in "saving" (ie: the act of rolling dice) the targeted ship. This is why Warhammer uses the otherwise counter-intuitive order of hit, damage, save. Gaming is a tactile sport for many, die rolls are important and lead to emotional highs and lows as your die rolling 'skill' is tested at key points.
• Perhaps you do not need to remove the penetration roll. If the goal is to reduce the volume of die rolls, you have already achieved this with your single attack factor (for example, replacing the Tigress 215 missile die rolls with one die roll using missile attack strength of (say) 25).
• I am picking "Attack TL" is the TL difference between the attacker and defender. It needs to be defined, or perhaps considered if my first interpretation that Attack TL is the attackers TL is correct.

While not my cup of tea, I like the existing detail , I do recognise what you are aiming to achieve and hope this helps in some way.

Cheers

1. eg: A Tigress needing 3+ to hit with its 215 bearing missile batteries will on average achieve 97.22% or 209 hits.

 

[aramis]

I always have disliked conflation of hit and penetration into a single roll.

 

[kilemall]

I always have disliked conflation of hit and penetration into a single roll.

Ya, that's why I pretty much refuse to use the CT personal combat system as is. Among other things, makes highly penetrating weapons basically autohit.

'The enemy's destroyers lash your battleship with direct PA and fusion hits, but except for isolated radiation damage nothing penetrated your mighty armor belt' is a play result as much as 'weapon weapon fuel weapon' hits.

 

[kilemall]

Just for reference the direction I am going with the HG/CT merge re: range and firepower is reducing everything to that first to hit column, then applying range -DMs plus the usual computer/agility/size mods and a choice to the gunner- spread the fire out and increase to hit but do less damage, or concentrate all fire for a maximum effect but higher chance to miss.

Then armor, hull design and defenses all come into play.

As ranges come down it becomes a very scary game of chicken and optimal ranging, where the maneuver/agility tradeoff looms large, and larger craft with spinal weapons cannot afford to bother with agility during their primary firing impulse.

What I came up with this past week is an INCREASE in firepower that last 100,000 km. Still working that out, along with my main sticking point, what exactly each kind of damage should be.

On that last point, consider that if you are looking to do a USP/Starfire type simplified resolution system for 'fast High Guard', that some of your hits are wiping out 3000 ton spinal mounts and others 5 tons of sandcasters, and really how much damage you are doing should have some relation to the weapon system doing the damage.

I am definitely on board with some sort of critical hit system so we don't have these huge behemoth ships that end up losing more to having no fuel left then anything else. What's the point of having big space battles if there aren't huge shattering weapons and doughty little hero ships?

 

[robject]

Thank you for your comments. You have all given me something to think about. The point I am hearing is that rolling to penetrate is preferable - and when the overall number of rolls is reduced, it is not a pain. I also hadn't considered the emotional stakes in rolling defenses AFTER rolling pen. This is a very productive thread - thank you again.