Am I figuring this right?

[Spinward Scout]

Ok, I'm trying to make a TL15 Suleiman Scout/Courier in T20. It's been interesting. Sensors and Communications don't seem right. It could never do any kind of long-range survey. But I had an idea as I was working on it. What if you sealed the 20 ton cargo hold to hold water? Then pump it through the purifier and into the jump fuel tanks just after Jumping insystem. You could then make an immediate Jump outsystem again. Couldn't carry cargo for the first trip, but then all you would have to do is let the cargo bay air dry before you put cargo in it. Of, course, that's if the cargo bay is all in one spot - and not blocking your way to engineering. I'd put it all on the lower deck. The CT Suleiman normally has only 3 tons of cargo.

If anybody sees anything wrong with it, let me know. If I don't get any errors, I'll put it in The Fleet this week.

TL 15 Scout/Courier

100 tons
Streamlined
100 SI

20 tons bridge

Main Computer - Model/1bis (0.1 tons)
Flight Avionics - (0.4 tons)
Sensors - Close range (0.3 tons)
Communications - Close range (0.2 tons)

3 TL 15 Fusion power plant units +6 EP (3 tons)

Power plant fuel (3 tons)

2 Jump-2 Drive Units -2 EP (3 tons)

Jump fuel (20 tons)

Fuel Scoops

TL15 Fuel Purification plant (3 tons)

2 2-G Maneuver Drive Units -2 EP (5 tons)
Max 4700kph
Cru 3525kph
NOE 1175kph

Vehicle (Air/Raft) Hanger (5 tons)

4 staterooms (16 tons)
1 single
3 double

1 Hardpoint
Triple Pulse Laser - 1 EP (1 ton)

20 tons cargo

 

[aramis]

Looks pretty much like the HG designed Type S, so yeah, looks right. The wonky bits are in computer price.

 

[far-trader]

I'm sure the intention of wilderness refueling was never to indicate a 1 to 1 ratio of water (liquid H2O) to hydrogen (liquid H2). Otherwise it wouldn't take hours to do. First off converting 20dton of water to hydrogen is going to mean you've lost some volume (all the oxygen) even if it's 100% efficient. Second the volume of liquid hydrogen (presumably in a super cooled highly compressed state) is going to be greatly reduced from that of the room temperature state it was in as part of the water.

I don't have hard numbers, it would depend on a couple assumptions I'm not making and physics I've forgotten, but at a guess 20dtons of water will at best yield a couple dtons of LH2 fuel ready for use. No, if you want to use the cargo hold for a temporary fuel tank for extended range it'll have to be in the magical fuel bladders or dismountable tanks(1).

The other thing I noticed without digging into the numbers is probably just a typo. You list only -1EP for the triple pulse laser turret that should be -3EP. Related to this, while the power is there imo it's a bad fit for the type S. With the TL15 powerplant supplying 6EP I think it'd make more sense to use 2EP for the maneuver and 2EP for agility, leaving 2EP for energy weapons and 1 space in a triple turret for a missile launcher for probes or nukes.



(1) THB pg 354 mentions them in passing but gives no details. I use other rule sets for them. Basically dismountable tanks can be stored empty at 20% of the full volume and bladders can be stored at 5% of the full volume. Fuel can be used directly from dismountable tanks. Fuel cannot be used directly from bladders.

In your example the hold can carry 20dtons of fuel(2) in dismountable tanks and could make the first jump out-system using that. Then while in jumpspace the crew disassembles the tanks and puts them in a corner and frees up 16dtons of cargo space. Or they can use the cargo hold for 20dtons of fuel(2) in bladders, make the first jump out-system using the fuel in the main tanks. Then while in jumpspace the crew pumps the fuel from the bladders into the main tanks and rolls/folds up the bladders and frees up 19dtons of cargo space.

(2) The "magical" property being that no volume is lost to the tank's structure, the 20% and 5% storage volume, or at least part of it.

 

[BetterThanLife]

You can use fuel bladders according to the THB (pg 354), though it lacks the price. I went searching through the CT canon, but haven't found the price there, though they are mentioned in The Traveller Adventure. I haven't managed to find the price there or in LBB5. In MT they are roughly half the price of demountable tanks. Since Demountable tanks are (CT price) KCr1 per ton. That would make your 20 ton bladders around KCr10. (Personally I think they are more useful than demountable tanks so should cost twice as much not half as much, making them KCr40.) You do have to spend a little time pumping the fuel from the bladder into the main tanks before you can use the fuel but otherwise it will accomplish your goals.

 

[BetterThanLife]

(1) THB pg 354 mentions them in passing but gives no details. I use other rule sets for them. Basically dismountable tanks can be stored empty at 20% of the full volume and bladders can be stored at 5% of the full volume. Fuel can be used directly from dismountable tanks. Fuel cannot be used directly from bladders.

In your example the hold can carry 20dtons of fuel(2) in dismountable tanks and could make the first jump out-system using that. Then while in jumpspace the crew disassembles the tanks and puts them in a corner and frees up 16dtons of cargo space. Or they can use the cargo hold for 20dtons of fuel(2) in bladders, make the first jump out-system using the fuel in the main tanks. Then while in jumpspace the crew pumps the fuel from the bladders into the main tanks and rolls/folds up the bladders and frees up 19dtons of cargo space.

(2) The "magical" property being that no volume is lost to the tank's structure, the 20% and 5% storage volume, or at least part of it.

Actually in the CT and MT canon mention of the Demountable tanks is that they are always that size. They can not be dismantled and they store at full size, empty or full. Only the bladders take up less space when empty that they do when full. Apparently in FF&S there is a third kind of tank that is between the other two, but I don't have the specs.

Further I make you do the pumping in normal space, mostly because you don't use all the fuel getting into jump, just a large majority.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The other thing I noticed without digging into the numbers is probably just a typo. You list only -1EP for the triple pulse laser turret that should be -3EP. Related to this, while the power is there imo it's a bad fit for the type S. With the TL15 powerplant supplying 6EP I think it'd make more sense to use 2EP for the maneuver and 2EP for agility, leaving 2EP for energy weapons and 1 space in a triple turret for a missile launcher for probes or nukes.

Good catch! I like the missile idea. I was thinking Sandcaster at one point, but the best defense is a good offense. But... That adds an extra ton to the turret, I think. That part's a little confusing.

I had a couple of other things in mind, like an airlock, but that reduced the cargo hold. I'm figuring 20 tons is about the same as a semi-trailer (minus a couple of tons) and so should be fairly easy for a broker to find a container to throw in there. But if I go with 10 tons cargo I could fit a few more things in. I wonder how much the standard air cargo containers hold.

As for Fuel Bladders and Demountable tanks: I'll have to think of a better way. You could still store enough fuel in a bladder for a Jump-1, tho, right? Just not a Jump-2.

Let me rewrite it...

 

[far-trader]

Nope, I think the hardpoint rules are still the same as HG, a turret is mounted, 1ton (small, can hold up to three of the listed 1ton weapons), 2ton (medium, can hold up to two of the listed 2ton weapons), and 3ton (large, can hold a single listed 3ton weapon). That's the way I've always understood it anyway.

Like I said, the alternate fuel tanks don't seem to worry about the structural volume, so a 20ton cargo hold can carry 20tons of fuel in either a dismountable, collapsible (thanks for the catch on the difference BTL, I think that's what the take down dismountable tanks were called), or bladder tank with no worry. Fuel for a second Jump 2 is doable this way.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The other thing I noticed without digging into the numbers is probably just a typo. You list only -1EP for the triple pulse laser turret that should be -3EP. Related to this, while the power is there imo it's a bad fit for the type S. With the TL15 powerplant supplying 6EP I think it'd make more sense to use 2EP for the maneuver and 2EP for agility, leaving 2EP for energy weapons and 1 space in a triple turret for a missile launcher for probes or nukes.

Good catch! I like the missile idea. I was thinking Sandcaster at one point, but the best defense is a good offense. But... That adds an extra ton to the turret, I think. That part's a little confusing.

I had a couple of other things in mind, like an airlock, but that reduced the cargo hold. I'm figuring 20 tons is about the same as a semi-trailer (minus a couple of tons) and so should be fairly easy for a broker to find a container to throw in there. But if I go with 10 tons cargo I could fit a few more things in. I wonder how much the standard air cargo containers hold.

As for Fuel Bladders and Demountable tanks: I'll have to think of a better way. You could still store enough fuel in a bladder for a Jump-1, tho, right? Just not a Jump-2.

Let me rewrite it...

If you have 20 tons of cargo, you can carry 20 tons of fuel instead in a bladder. The bladder takes up no discernible space. (In the MT rules it is actually listed as taking up no cargo space when empty.) Since it is TL15, if you only carry 3 tons worth of powerplant you have saved 4 tons over the Standard Scout ship, and generate 2 more EP than the standard Scout Ship.

One other thought. If you have a mixed turret there is no benefit to carrying a second laser. In CT, MT and T20 in a mixed turret each weapon is a separate battery. Under that rule you can have 2 laser batteries but not one battery of 2 lasers. (And I only allow each turret to fire once per turn, though I don't recall if that is in the rules, each battery that is to fire requires a separate gunner and that is definitely in the rules.) Further a single missile is virtually useless under CT/HG/MT and T20.

 

[far-trader]

Well according to the rules (HG and T20) 2 beam lasers will give a single battery of USP 3 for the lasers. I recall nothing that says you can't group them as a battery in T20 or HG (and of course it's not applicable to CT B2). All I recall is that ships with more than 10 turrets can't mix weapons in them.

I also don't recall a rule limiting fire the way you do, seems a fair enough house rule though. Hmm, yes each battery requires a gunner (even if the battery is made up of several turrets), though it's also true that each turret requires but a single gunner even if that turret is mixed. So it makes some sense that if you have only a single gunner for the turret that they can only choose to fire one weapon type a turn. In fact I can't see how having an extra gunner (or two) for a mixed turret is any benefit as you'd have cross purposes.

If the turn is only long enough to fire one weapon type per turret then the number of gunners is irrelevant, more won't help. If the turn is long enough to fire more than one weapon type per turret then the number of gunners is still irrelevant, one is enough.

 

[far-trader]

As for a single missile turret being useless, I think you forget the craft purpose. This isn't a fighter or a cruiser, it's not supposed to be getting into fights with ships bigger than itself. It's a Scout/Courier. It looks and runs away. Any weapons installed are subsidiary, typically for busting up rocks or sending probes. Still, stick a Nuke* in that single missile turret and you can mess up a Corsair a bit while you run away.

* I can certainly see some active duty type S with Nukes.

 

[far-trader]

Oh, one more quick note for ScoutCadet469, did you miss putting a fuel purifier in on purpose or by oversight?

 

[Spinward Scout]

3 ton Fuel purifier is listed just below the Fuel Scoops.

So would I be better off making it a triple pulse turret?

 

[far-trader]

Oops, missed that Never mind

Pulse is best as a single or triple yes, only the beam gets you a benefit as a double. For a single turret ship there is some sense in making it a true mixed turret: one laser, one missile launcher, one sandcaster. You cover all your bases and you don't lose much in the USP trade offs. The hardest part of such an arrangement in CT was the programs needed (both Target and Launch) not leaving much for flight. This doesn't seem to be an issue in T20.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Well according to the rules (HG and T20) 2 beam lasers will give a single battery of USP 3 for the lasers. I recall nothing that says you can't group them as a battery in T20 or HG (and of course it's not applicable to CT B2). All I recall is that ships with more than 10 turrets can't mix weapons in them.

I also don't recall a rule limiting fire the way you do, seems a fair enough house rule though. Hmm, yes each battery requires a gunner (even if the battery is made up of several turrets), though it's also true that each turret requires but a single gunner even if that turret is mixed. So it makes some sense that if you have only a single gunner for the turret that they can only choose to fire one weapon type a turn. In fact I can't see how having an extra gunner (or two) for a mixed turret is any benefit as you'd have cross purposes.

Page 278 of the THB for T20. A mixed turret (ie. two or more different weapons installed in the same turret) may not be grouped into a battery, and each weapon in the turret is considered a single battery unto itself.

LBB5 states (Page 29):On ships"lb00 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery.

LBB2 rules state one gunner per turret, but is clearly not written with the concept of multiple turrets in one battery in mind.

However I am willing to state for both CT and T20 one gunner per battery or per turret whichever is less. Because multiple gunners and one turret sounds like a bad idea.

Now for T20, HG, CT and Mayday it is actually clear as to how many shots can be taken by a gunner in one turn. Only 1. In T20, which is what we are discussing, the D20 combat rules clearly state that a person can, in a combat round, execute one combat action and one movement action or, instead of both of them, one full round action. It further states that you can substitute a movement action for a combat action, but not vice versa.

If the turn is only long enough to fire one weapon type per turret then the number of gunners is irrelevant, more won't help. If the turn is long enough to fire more than one weapon type per turret then the number of gunners is still irrelevant, one is enough.

The issue is, if you can have more than one gunner per turret, since a triple mixed turret is three batteries, then the only way you can fire more than one weapon per turn is if you can fire each battery in a turret in a turn and to do that, in T20, each battery has to be a different gunner. But I won't allow that, YMMV.

Personally I would go with a Dual Beam Laser turret. Same USP as the Triple Pulse laser for 2/3rds the energy cost, though on average, against an unarmored ship, 3 points less damage. (Most ships don't get killed by points of SI damage unless you are using Meson weapons anyway, so not a big loss.)

In T20, both weapons have a range far in excess of the sensor ability of a Scout Ship, and actually in excess of most sub 1000 ton ships.

 

[aramis]

3 ton Fuel purifier is listed just below the Fuel Scoops.

So would I be better off making it a triple pulse turret?

The big difference between CT-Bk5 and T20 is computer.
The CT Bk2 has, for comparison:
10Td JD A
01Td MD A
04Td PP A
01Td Comp 1/bis
20Td Bridge
16Td 4xSR
01Td 1xTurret
04Td 1xAir Raft
20Td PP Fuel
20Td JD Fuel
03Td Cargo
==========
100Td Total

The Bk5 Redesign TL10-16
 TL10  TL11  TL12  TL13  TL14  TL15
  3Td   3Td   3Td   3Td   3Td   3Td JD 2
  5Td   5Td   5Td   5Td   5Td   5Td MD 2
  6Td   6Td   6Td   4Td   4Td   2Td PP 2 
  1Td   1Td   1Td   1Td   1Td   1Td Comp 1/bis
 20Td  20Td  20Td  20Td  20Td  20Td Bridge
 16Td  16Td  16Td  16Td  16Td  16Td 4xSR
  1Td   1Td   1Td   1Td   1Td   1Td 1xTurret
  4Td   4Td   4Td   4Td   4Td   4Td 1xAir Raft
  2Td   2Td   2Td   2Td   2Td   2Td PP Fuel
 20Td  20Td  20Td  20Td  20Td  20Td JD Fuel
  8Td   7Td   6Td   5Td   4Td   3Td FPP (200Td Fuel Capacity TL10)
 14Td  15Td  16Td  19Td  20Td  23Td Cargo
===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ==================== 
100Td 100Td 100Td 100Td 100Td 100Td Total
 22Td  22Td  22Td  24Td  24Td  26Td No FPP Cargo

This give a better comparison for you?

 

[far-trader]

Page 278 of the THB for T20. A mixed turret (ie. two or more different weapons installed in the same turret) may not be grouped into a battery, and each weapon in the turret is considered a single battery unto itself.

Which I read as (italics added are mine):

"A mixed turret (ie. two or more different weapon types installed in the same turret) may not be grouped into a battery, and each weapon type in the turret is considered a single battery unto itself."

So to me a triple turret with two beam lasers can group them as a battery in the turret and the other weapon type in that turret (missile or sand) is another battery. And the missile or sand launcher in that turret may not be added to other turrets to configure a larger battery.

Certainly, now that you point it out I can see where I may have been interpreting the rule incorrectly. At the time it seemed an obvious conclusion based on two beam lasers being grouped for USP. Now I can see that this may be only applied to a dedicated double turret situation.

LBB5 states (Page 29):On ships 100 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery.

And again which I always read as above (italics added are mine):

"On ships 100 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon type is a battery."

I think we are agreed that one gunner can only fire one weapon type per turn, that just seems the way it was meant to work.

For the type S I'd probably stick with my preferred standard, a double turret, typically a double launcher*. Missiles are cheap and versatile (KK, HE, Nuke, Probe, etc.) and Sand is a decent defense and dirt cheap And then you can reduce the powerplant to 4EP and still have enough for full maneuver agility and gain a little more space inside for whatever. Of course I'm a firm believer in the lowest bidder approach to IISS hardware and that all type S ships are TL9 A TL15 100ton ship is going to be some special spook ship, probably IN, "pretending" to be a standard type S while it goes around doing shifty stuff for The Emperor :file_22: IMTU

* In MTU there is a third type of Launch capable turret installation. It combines the capability of launching your choice of missiles or sand. MCr1 per launcher, load it however you want, even mix the ready magazine.

 

[Spinward Scout]

A TL15 100ton ship is going to be some special spook ship, probably IN, "pretending" to be a standard type S while it goes around doing shifty stuff for The Emperor IMTU

Funny, that's about what I had in mind...

IMoJ
'Nothing to see here. Move along...'

 

[aramis]

I can see TL13-15 Type S ships being used as couriers with physical mail, and some of that tonnage being used for mission palates. Say, a 4 ton mission palate opposite the air-raft as shown in Sup 7...

The Bk5 Type S has a large chunk of cargo space at all TL's; a TL15 with no FPP can carry an extra jump of fuel.

I need to look up how many people can be provided full LS per Td of supplies. I know it's in the JTAS Asteroid Mining article, and it might also be in Beltstrike.

But given a rate of only 100person days per ton of displacement... that makes a single Type S on a 1J2 capable of supporting 100 persons a year (TL 10-12 need no FPP installed).

IIRC, it's 100 person-weeks per ton... which means that 14Td could support 500 people for the 18 day cycle of steady shipment (6-8 in jump, 2days in system to load a waiting cargo & refuel, plus most of a day in and out each, 6-8 more to jump back, and 2 more days to land, unload, refuel, and return to jump point.) this means 19 trips per year.

So, the cargo tonnage, in courier mode, makes it ideal for small colony support. It also makes it the near-ideal off-Xroute IISS mail courier. It also allows for mission modules.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Which I read as (italics added are mine):

"A mixed turret (ie. two or more different weapon types installed in the same turret) may not be grouped into a battery, and each weapon type in the turret is considered a single battery unto itself."

So to me a triple turret with two beam lasers can group them as a battery in the turret and the other weapon type in that turret (missile or sand) is another battery. And the missile or sand launcher in that turret may not be added to other turrets to configure a larger battery.

Certainly, now that you point it out I can see where I may have been interpreting the rule incorrectly. At the time it seemed an obvious conclusion based on two beam lasers being grouped for USP. Now I can see that this may be only applied to a dedicated double turret situation.

But you are/were adding a word that isn't there, and that changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

For the type S I'd probably stick with my preferred standard, a double turret, typically a double launcher*. Missiles are cheap and versatile (KK, HE, Nuke, Probe, etc.) and Sand is a decent defense and dirt cheap And then you can reduce the powerplant to 4EP and still have enough for full maneuver agility and gain a little more space inside for whatever. Of course I'm a firm believer in the lowest bidder approach to IISS hardware and that all type S ships are TL9 A TL15 100ton ship is going to be some special spook ship, probably IN, "pretending" to be a standard type S while it goes around doing shifty stuff for The Emperor :file_22: IMTU

* In MTU there is a third type of Launch capable turret installation. It combines the capability of launching your choice of missiles or sand. MCr1 per launcher, load it however you want, even mix the ready magazine.

Missiles in T20 are not very effective. Any reasonable gunner can knock down a missile battery with even a single pulse laser rather easily. (Especially given the number of modifiers inherent in Starship combat.) Target number of 16+the USP of the missile-Laser USP-Gunner's skill-Computer factor-ship commander's leadership factors. Usually your target number is under 10. A single missile is a joke. About the only thing it is good for is to keep the enemy's lasers firing at your missile. And you will run out of missiles in your ready rack before he runs out of ammo for the laser. If you have an assistant gunner, I will allow the AG to reload the ready rack while the launcher is firing, but without one you are simply allowing your enemy to fire on you after 4 rounds, every other turn. And if the enemy has more than one turret, you are screwed.

Take the lasers. In T20 sand is not very effective either.

One other point, you can build to the lowest bidder, however, if you keep the specs the same a TL13 or TL15 Type-S is actually cheaper than a TL9 Type-S. In fact you can get a TL15 Type-S with 6EP and a Dual Beam Laser cheaper than a TL9 Type-S (Cheaper by MCr7.) and free up 3 tons of cargo space or add a TL15 Fuel Processor and still come out cheaper. Simply changing nothing but the TL and keeping the same power and no armament and going from TL9 to TL13 frees up 2 tons and costs MCr6 less.

 

[BetterThanLife]

For a special Spook Ship I would use a Fast Courier. (Avenger Games Golden Age Starships No. 1.) It actually carries everything a Spook Team needs. Though improve the streamlining so you can replace the launch with a more useful (for spies) gig.

(In fact I have used it as such. )