Another canon-check

[Whipsnade]

BTC is all the proof needed to show that the divergence point between the GTU and the OTU is somwhere in the time before 1105...

Aramis,

Don't laugh...

... but I actually thought that BtC was deliberately written to be different instead of just shoddily researched and uncaringly written.

I thought it's version of the Fifth Frontier War, or the events prior to it's version of the Fifth Frontier War, was the POD (point of departure) between the GTU and OTU.

LKW quickly dispelled that idea and the GTU's POD still hasn't been revealed...

... although Strephon got a nice new orchid a few weeks ago.

Isn't that special?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Given the number and caliber of changes snuck in in various places by various authors (LKW, Doug Berry, Chris Thrash, Steve Bloo, MJD, etc) either by design or accident, the GTU diverges in many ways from the OTU, in some cases simply by defining things previously optional (or even non-defined at all) as default.

So many forget that even just pinning down one of several prior options is a significant change. Loren's big one (and Doug's, as well) was that all IM's are BD trained; that runs counter to the CGen tables, in both CT and MT.

I realized the moment I got GT home that GT was clearly Loren's universe, not the GDW universe. It is intentionally different. And it isn't my cup of tea, but it's just fine for those who like it.

 

[DonM]

There's one reference that's driving me nuts. I'm sure I've seen a mention somewhere that 'Collace gets raw materials from Tarsus, Avastan and Inchin', but I can't track it down.

Isn't what you are looking for in the Tarsus' World Data book, page 15, where the Ag Worlds Combine is discussed?

And on your other suggestion, I'll PM you...

 

[BlackBat242]

BOOM


Cannon checks 4-oh, Sir!!

Sorry, had to do it, I couldn't hold back any longer, been wanting to do that since the thread was posted.

 

[Major B]

BOOM

I'm amazed you resisted for that long - I've been waiting for this since I started the thread.

 

[rancke]

Given the number and caliber of changes snuck in in various places by various authors (LKW, Doug Berry, Chris Thrash, Steve Bloo, MJD, etc) either by design or accident, the GTU diverges in many ways from the OTU, in some cases simply by defining things previously optional (or even non-defined at all) as default.

There were lots and lots and lots of details about the OTU that was undefined at the time the first word about the GTU was written, but except for Foreven Sector, I'm not aware of anything that was optional (Well, it's all optional, of course, but I don't suppose that's what you mean). There may have been some, but mostly there were gaping holes that no one had gotten around to defining yet. As Robert Prior so wisely said a while back: "The very act of writing a Traveller book closes the doors on possibilities. Any game supplement does that, assuming the publisher cares about internal consistency."

So many forget that even just pinning down one of several prior options is a significant change.

Not I. But I consider that a feature of new material, not a bug. If the new material happens to overwrite something I've already covered myself IMTU, I'll keep thing the way I've already told my players IMTU. Nothing forces me to adopt any new facts if I don't want to. If (as is often the case) the new material fills in one of the huge number of holes IMTU, I'll grab it with loud hosannas and use it to fill out another bit of my TU. So to me new material is at worst "No effect" and most of the time it's a bonus.

Loren's big one (and Doug's, as well) was that all IM's are BD trained; that runs counter to the CGen tables, in both CT and MT.

I gave Doug a hard time about that at first, but he pointed out that although it certainly is a change, it's one that goes back to CT material. It showed up in Loren's writeup of Imperial Marines in JTAS #12. The MT authors should really have changed the rules to reflect that . After all, they had two conflicting bit of canon: Basic rules that applied to every generic marine in Charted Space and a specific description of one specific organization. It seems to me that the specific is stronger evidence than the generic.

In any case, even if it had been a genuine discrepancy, you can hardly say that it's such a big difference that it outweighs all the similarities between the two universes.

(Just to be clear: I think Loren made a mistake when he established that all Imperial Marines were BD trained, because it makes them less useful to a GM. There was a quote somewhere in GF to the effect that "The moment the Marines arrive, the battle is over". Which means that as a GM, I can't really allow the Marines to arrive and spoil the fun. But there's no doubt in my mind that he did establish it and that that's the way it is in the OTU (And the GTU.)


Hans

 

[aramis]

Loren's suposed change in CT was not reflected in nor reflective of the materials in the rest of the line, nor in later editions.

In fact, it seems to have been flat out rejected by the rest of the authorship until GT.

That, and the issue of if JTAS articles are even canonical, since several (even one from MWM) are flat out ignored by later rulesets. (Specifically, jump masking.)

As far as options go: which ship design system? B2, B5? Which T&C system? B3, B7?

So, when a change makes prior canonical appearances wrong (to wit, the TO&E in SMC, the counter mix in AHL, etc), one or the other becomes an option.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

BOOM


Cannon checks 4-oh, Sir!!

Sorry, had to do it, I couldn't hold back any longer, been wanting to do that since the thread was posted.

I'm amazed you resisted for that long - I've been waiting for this since I started the thread.

Well, that's because I already pulled that once, and I have been on spotty internet access for about a month now. Congrats on finally getting to it, BlackBat!

 

[rancke]

Loren's supposed change in CT was not reflected in nor reflective of the materials in the rest of the line, nor in later editions.

In fact, it seems to have been flat out rejected by the rest of the authorship until GT.

You know of another writeup of the Imperial Marines anywhere? Any canonical adventures where Imperial Marines without BD skill show up? There's the Luuru, of course, but that predates JTAS#12 (My fix is to say that the marines on the Luuru were Duchy of Regina marines).

That, and the issue of if JTAS articles are even canonical, since several (even one from MWM) are flat out ignored by later rulesets. (Specifically, jump masking.)

Ignored or overlooked? I know of very few canon discrepancies that appear to be deliberate (The subsector navy/reserve fleet discrepancy being a notable exception).

As far as options go: which ship design system? B2, B5? Which T&C system? B3, B7?

Of the two, definitely B5. But rules are imperfect reflections of reality. B2 is more flawed than B5, but neither are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Both are simplifications (and simplifying makes for distortions).

So, when a change makes prior canonical appearances wrong (to wit, the TO&E in SMC, the counter mix in AHL, etc),

Could you elucidate, please? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

...one or the other becomes an option.

They become optionnal for individual TUs (No, not become, they always were optional). For the OTU as it exists in this particular point in time, one or the two must be right and the other must be wrong. In some cases we don't know which is what, but that doesn't alter that; it merely leaves the choice up to the next Traveller author who writes about the subject (And can get MM's approval ).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Several Org Tables exist for imperial marines. They do not show battledress for all troops.

AHL has counters for marines in CES and in Combat Armor as well as in BD.

Loren's article was ignored.

TD 15 makes an equally overstated claim: all marines are drop troops.
Now, since all marines DO have vacc suit 0, and the TD article adds drop operations 0, THAT is reflected in the rules.

All marines being Battlesdress troopies only exists in that one article and in GT.

 

[rancke]

Several Org Tables exist for imperial marines. They do not show battledress for all troops.

AHL has counters for marines in CES and in Combat Armor as well as in BD.

That proves nothing. IIRC the article just says that all Imperial Marines are BD qualified. I don't have JTAS#12 right here, but I doubt its TO&E has nothing but BD units. Does it?

Loren's article was ignored.

Or overlooked. Perhaps I didn't explain myself adequately. The generic character generation rules create some marines without BD skill. The Kinunir features marines without BD skill. Loren's article contradicted that (or, arguably, refined it from a generic to a specific marine organization). To reflect that, MT CG rules ought to've been changed to give Imperial Marines a default BD skill, and they didn't. No argument there. But did the MT writers consider Loren's article carefully and reject it, or did they just cut and paste the old CG rules without thinking it over? Is there any indication anywhere that the idea was rejected? Any writeup of Imperial Marines that says "Only some IMs are BD trained"? Or even a set of CG rules that not only creates marines without BD skill, but explicitly states: "And that goes for Imperial Marines too!"?

All marines being Battlesdress troopies only exists in that one article and in GT.

That would mean so much more if the only articles we had describing Imperial marines specifically weren't that one article and in GT. As it is, the preponderance of available evidence shows that Imperial Marines in the GTU and the OTU[*] are all BD trained.


Hans


[*] Up to the change point, of course.

 

[aramis]

I understand and reject your reasoning, Hans.

It does not matter if it was overlooked or rejected. It was inconsistent with the CGen, and the CGen was never corrected to match. They made a great number of changes in making the tables.

Standard troop deploy on Terra is CES (TD15, IIRC). Loren's article implies strongly BD for every marine; an illogical extreme. Not just training, but equipping (at MCr1.5/marine) BD troops.

Further, TD15 provides details on the occupation forces of Terra, which are imperial marines.

So there are other sources besides the LKW article and LKW's GT implication (which, BTW, is toned WAY down from the article, by only giving a half-point in Battlesuit.)

And I'd put the changepoint WELL before 1115... based upon recent threads, well before the 5FW.

 

[rancke]

It does not matter if it was overlooked or rejected. It was inconsistent with the CGen, and the CGen was never corrected to match. They made a great number of changes in making the tables.

Standard troop deploy on Terra is CES (TD15, IIRC). Loren's article implies strongly BD for every marine; an illogical extreme. Not just training, but equipping (at MCr1.5/marine) BD troops.

You're right that it doesn't really matter if it was overlooked or rejected, but I see it the other way around. That the rules doesn't match the background description means the rules don't reflect the reality of the background adequately, not that the background doesn't reflect the reality of the rules adequately. When rules and background are in conflict, the background IMO trumps the rules (as long as the background isn't self-contradictory, of course; your argument about BDs being expensive is a much better one than the rules one).

Further, TD15 provides details on the occupation forces of Terra, which are imperial marines.

See, this is background description and thus much more weighty. So does the description in TD#15 say that not all IMs are BD trained?

So there are other sources besides the LKW article and LKW's GT implication (which, BTW, is toned WAY down from the article, by only giving a half-point in Battlesuit.)

Well, that weakens your argument that the cost of equipping all IMs with BD is implausible.

And I'd put the change point WELL before 1115... based upon recent threads, well before the 5FW.

Why? The BtC writeup of the 5FW is one of the few things that has been explicitly and deliberately changed back to that given by CT sources in a later GT source.


Hans