Another Empress Wave theory

[William]

Thank you Dr. A print out of that gif is going to be included with my main rules to be used to explain that. I appreciate it.

I may be able to follow the math personally, but humans need a good graphic to really "get" it. Much like the gunnery questions on the TML right now?

William

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by William:
Thank you Dr. A print out of that gif is going to be included with my main rules to be used to explain that. I appreciate it.

No prob. I'm half tempted to try rendering another system for comparison... I might try Regina, since I have all of the info I need for that. Do we have any more fully listed systems? Core? Reference? The Major Race home systems?

It does highlight how generally the 100D limits of the stars are going to be more obstructive than those of the planets.

 

[kaladorn]

I know that Regina was detailed, as was Terra. I wonder if we looked in V&V or someplace we might not find details on Vland system.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I know that Regina was detailed, as was Terra. I wonder if we looked in V&V or someplace we might not find details on Vland system.

I've done Regina now... will post it in a tick.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
I've done Regina now... will post it in a tick.

...and here it is, to scale with the Inner Solar System.


http://members.shaw.ca/evildrganymede2/JTAS/systems100D.gif


I'm guessing at a few numbers - I'm assuming Lusor is 1.3 times Sol's radius, the SGGs are the size of Uranus, and Assiniboia is the size of Jupiter (I'm sure I've seen a diameter in km quoted for that somewhere, is it supposed to be bigger than Jupiter??)

Objects labelled in (brackets) are there, but can't be seen at this scale. Again, these images show the 100D limits, not the planets themselves. Regina is well within Assiniboia's 100D limit (not surprising considering it orbits at 55 radii!). I should add of course that Lusor and Darida aren't really that close together - they're actually separated by 5,000 AU. Realistically speaking, Darida should be about 900,000 pixels to the right .

 

[TheDS]

MT (and I would presume CT before it) gave us lists only of UWPs, if even that much. The map of the Spinward Marches shows star ports, water, gas giant, and x-boat routes. You have to pull out the back of your Encyclopedia to see what the worlds' UWPs are. I don't think I've seen all that many star SYSTEMS detailed. I don't recall if they even mention what kind of star is in the middle.

And even if they do tell you, it's not like anything tells you what the diameter of a G7III star is. Well, not everyone went to the library and found out.... I don't recall seeing that in WBH or WTH... I think GT:FI is the first book to tell us these things.

But who wants to go and calculate a big long list of jump barriers (my term for jump shadow)? So we tide ourselves over by just using the world UWP data, since that's what really matters. And who realy cared about the time to travel from Size 1 or A worlds? It was all pretty quick even at 1G.

So this is why the debate has never surfaced before. It never mattered. It doesn't HAVE to matter either, and for many, I'm sure it still doesn't.

This argument has only 1 major question, which is NEVER going to be answered.

1. Is MWM misremembering (lying?) when he says jump-masking was built into the game system from the beginning?

All the evidence says to ME that jump masking is completely new. Jump-barriers are only mentioned when they involve entry or exit from jump; no mention is made of the between times. Further, the statement that nothing can affect a ship in jump cements this for me.

However, this aparently is not damnable enough, and the other side of the coin is that the omission of a statement does not mean omission of a fact, and that nothing manmade can affect a ship in jump.

There is a difference in the way the two sides of this argument see the information; however, one side wins hands down, because the guy in charge says jump-masking exists.

There is no further need to argue the point of whether it exists or not (unless some one brings in REALLY compelling evidence). Neither side is going to convince the other (even WITH that evidence). And since I started this whole mess, I would like to say to both sides that I appreciated your responses and helping of us all to understand the game an its background a little better. Let us now turn our attention to more important matters, like how many pieces of candy corn can we stuff into our mouths?

I bid 30.

(Or we COULD do something REALLY crazy, like get back on topic.)

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by TheDS:
I don't think I've seen all that many star SYSTEMS detailed. I don't recall if they even mention what kind of star is in the middle.

Depends where you look. The TNE Regency Sourcebook lists all the stars for the systems in the Spinward Marches and bits of surrounding sectors (most useful). Rim Of Fire also lists the stars for the Solomani Rim. But no, systems aren't usually detailed, more's the pity. There's certainly more to the traveller universe than just the main world, and simply listing that on its own totally warps ones perspective on it (for example, there could be all sorts of possibilities for insystem trade, so long as it takes less than a week to get there).

And even if they do tell you, it's not like anything tells you what the diameter of a G7III star is. Well, not everyone went to the library and found out.... I don't recall seeing that in WBH or WTH... I think GT:FI is the first book to tell us these things.

CT Book 6 listed all the stellar parameters (page 44 and 45), so they've been there in some form or another from the start. I think the World Builders Handbook did it for MegaTraveller - I'm not sure whether anything appeared in TNE, but First In of course covered all that quite nicely for GT.

So this is why the debate has never surfaced before. It never mattered. It doesn't HAVE to matter either, and for many, I'm sure it still doesn't.

Oh, it's surfaced before, you just haven't seen it.

There is a difference in the way the two sides of this argument see the information; however, one side wins hands down, because the guy in charge says jump-masking exists.

As it should be. For your own Traveller universe, you can make up your own mind about how this all works, and really you don't have to justify that to anyone so long as you're happy with it. In the OFFICIAL Traveller universe - the canon that we all use to define our shared universe - the buck stops with MWM. If he says that's how it is in the OTU, then that's how it is in the OTU. If you don't like that... well, you're welcome to change it for your own Traveller games, but nobody's going to persuade anyone that Marc's wrong or 'lying' about how it works in the OTU.

(Or we COULD do something REALLY crazy, like get back on topic.) [/QB]

Well, I was tempted to ask one of the Ancients to split this 100D jump limit topic into a new thread, since it's really diverged from the original post (from like, page 2 of the thread!)!

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
...and here it is, to scale with the Inner Solar System.

Nice EDG!

I was thinking of something like this for the whole system, with maybe some sort of scale discontinuity part way out. Or log scaling. But I'm blasted if I want to try to imagine what a circle of influence run across log scale might look like (some sort of flattened-sided circle, I'd guess).

It would be nice to have the system gen software create this stuff (sounds like a suggestion for H&E, Universe, Galactic....)

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
...and here it is, to scale with the Inner Solar System.

Nice EDG!

I was thinking of something like this for the whole system, with maybe some sort of scale discontinuity part way out. Or log scaling. But I'm blasted if I want to try to imagine what a circle of influence run across log scale might look like (some sort of flattened-sided circle, I'd guess).

It would be nice to have the system gen software create this stuff (sounds like a suggestion for H&E, Universe, Galactic....)

 

[kaladorn]

Two observations:

Originally posted by TheDS:
But who wants to go and calculate a big long list of jump barriers (my term for jump shadow)? So we tide ourselves over by just using the world UWP data, since that's what really matters. And who realy cared about the time to travel from Size 1 or A worlds? It was all pretty quick even at 1G.

It's quick, until you're being chased. Or have a time critical deadline to be somewhere else. There are times these details matter. They don't *have* to, but they can be interesting.

And some of us are interested!

Sidewise Musing about CotI:

I always find it interested how 'not interested' people post to these discussions - if one truly isn't interested, one can stop following the threads. I mean, going on about how unrequired something is (Note: TheDS, I'm not suggesting you've been doing that, this is more a general observation for some other folks out there...) or how they don't care about it - why bother?

If some people are interested, they will discuss it. If you aren't (other than to pass the observation that you aren't, which I respect and I respect your reasons for disinterest which all seem quite valid to me), then you aren't.

Besides, I'd rather have a computer do the work for me - I'm not a fan of even rolling up systems. All of this should be spit out by a good program, and in slow stages, we're getting there.

So this is why the debate has never surfaced before. It never mattered. It doesn't HAVE to matter either, and for many, I'm sure it still doesn't.

Agreed. And I respect the right for many GMs and players not to give a hoot. Okay, there are lots of other interesting topics to discuss!

But for me, I find the ideas discussed in this thread interesting and so I encouraged Thrash and EDG and others to explore them with me/for me/in spite of me. And I've appreciated their insights and their assistance in understanding the situation and how it could apply. I personally find it very interesting and plan to integrate it into my games.

All the evidence says to ME that jump masking is completely new. Jump-barriers are only mentioned when they involve entry or exit from jump; no mention is made of the between times. Further, the statement that nothing can affect a ship in jump cements this for me.

I've said it before, and I stand by it. People are reading too much into that statement IMO. It's only MO, but there are less rigorous ways to interpret the meaning and still leave plenty of room for Jump Masking.

At worst, Jump Masking may always have existed and this may just be a case of imprecise language.

Frankly, if you want to talk about things that don't matter, the answer to this would lead the charge. Why it is matters not. It is for CT, presumably thus for T5 and T20, and we know it is for GT. So, in terms of where Traveller is going, it is a fact. That pretty much ends the important parts of that discussion to me.

There is a difference in the way the two sides of this argument see the information; however, one side wins hands down, because the guy in charge says jump-masking exists.

That does not preclude discussion on how it might work, whether you like it or not and plan to use it, or alternatives to it.

But for OTU Canon, yeah, that does pretty much clinch it. Full Stop.

There is no further need to argue the point of whether it exists or not (unless some one brings in REALLY compelling evidence).

Yep, I think invoking the name of MWM in his latest Papal Bull pretty much ends the discussion of existence (or should).

Neither side is going to convince the other (even WITH that evidence). And since I started this whole mess, I would like to say to both sides that I appreciated your responses and helping of us all to understand the game an its background a little better. Let us now turn our attention to more important matters, like how many pieces of candy corn can we stuff into our mouths?

To go against my own 'disinterest' policy on posting, I really despise Candy Corn.

Hmmm, wait.. maybe this illustrates why people post to things they don't care about....

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I was thinking of something like this for the whole system, with maybe some sort of scale discontinuity part way out. Or log scaling. But I'm blasted if I want to try to imagine what a circle of influence run across log scale might look like (some sort of flattened-sided circle, I'd guess).

Umm... probably a flattened circle, yeah, since the log scale isn't constant (I presume we'd just have the log scale on the horizonta axis). I I can't easily figure out how to persuade POVray to render on a log scale though - but it'd be rather handy if I could do that

. I'd probably have to figure out the distances and sizes by hand and put them into the program.

It would be nice to have the system gen software create this stuff (sounds like a suggestion for H&E, Universe, Galactic....)

POVray is programmable (though the version I use it a bit old), so one probably could persuade it to read from a text file with the radii and orbital distances and it could render from that... maybe one day I'll try to figure that out.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi,

as I need a little distance to my actual hex grid problems I will rapidly implement that.

I will also use both plain text files and that xml stuff as input.

Just give me a little while.

Mert

Priest of the Evil VB
and member of the corps of doomed engineers.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Restrictions. Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant, world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself.

Well that's unambiguous. It's no longer possible to jump from within a 100d zone.

I would be sincerely interested to see what material you believe implies that jump masking is not true.

Because that's the way jump drives have always been described as working. You rip a hole into another dimension, jump in, and spend the next week *elsewhere*. Off with the fairies. At right angles to reality. Totally disconnected from the regular space/time continuum.

Seven days later (+/- 10%), you're spat back out into the real world, having jumped over/under/around the intervening space (and anything in it).

All that matters is where you're going from and to, because that's all the rulebooks say matters.

It wasn't a case of me not believing jump masking wasn't true, simply that the rules never gave me the slightest clue that it was even a possibility.

Some SF universes insist astrogators use psionics or direct neural interfaces to control ships. The Traveller rules don't mention them, therefore it never ocurred to me that they might be needed. Isn't that a reasonable assumption?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Before we start another canonical war I would like to ask what kind of value one or the other method has for gameplay ?

Well, that's the bottom line, isn't it? What's best for the game?

The traditional method is far simpler. All you need to do is fly to 100d from the planet (or less, if you're feeling brave) and press the button. You know how long this takes, because every version of the rules has had a "flight time to 100d" table. A week later, you appear 100d from the destination. This is the method I've used for the last 20 years.

If you want to include the star's 100d limit, it's more complicated. You need to know the stellar type, then look up the diameter and multiply it by 100, and work out what orbit numbers that covers. Then you need to work out what orbit the mainworld is in. I did it once or twice when Bk6 came out, but life's too short. (Obviously, it's a lot easier these days with a computer).

I wouldn't know where to begin with jump masking. How do you calculate the chance of hitting something en route? If you handwave it away and say it's close enough to 0 to ignore, then you might as well say you can ignore intervening objects.

It's more work for the GM, and more time trundling round the system for the PCs, but do you gain anything useful?

 

[robject]

You could also make a Half-Hearted Handwave (HHH) for stellar 100D limits: subtract Seven from the magnitude and that's the first orbit outside the 100D limit.

So orbit 6 is the first orbit outside a Mag I star's 100D limit. That means the star's diameter is something like 0.05 AU (7.5mkm), I think. Sounds a bit silly, don't you agree? But I'm just doing a HHH.

Rob

 

[TheDS]

This doesn't work, Rob, because a type I supergiant can be as big as orbit 6! I made a system that had a supergiant star, expressly for the purpose of having a jump barrier so far out that you COULDN'T use HEPlaRin the system. The hab zone was at like orbit 11, and the barrier was out to like 13 or so. Considering the distance between 11 and 13 is like the DIAMETER of our solar system... well, that was a lot of space.

Also, if we use First In, we have non-constant orbital slots. Orbit 3 is rarely1 AU from its primary. You've got M8 stars with hab zones so close that the world whips around it in about 2 weeks! (I'm using GT:FI for all my system generation needs, now. I'll still use WBH for some things, and WTH for others. Never had any CT books, but I might one day get some reprints. Have a couple minor ones. CT just doesn't interest me much, though.)

Anyhow... I too learned a lot from this discussion, and am glad we had it. I could go on with it, but really, I think we did enough damage to it for the month. That diagram EDGe drew up was a real good one; helped illustrate some things.

 

[kaladorn]

I'd be interested to see (if EDG has copious free time) a rendering of Assiniboia (or another big GG) and its satellites (With 100D limits). I'd also love to see a system like the one theDS describes with the big ass supergiant and the large jump barrier.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by TheDS:
[QB] This doesn't work, Rob, because a type I supergiant can be as big as orbit 6! I made a system that had a supergiant star, expressly for the purpose of having a jump barrier so far out that you COULDN'T use HEPlaRin the system. The hab zone was at like orbit 11, and the barrier was out to like 13 or so. Considering the distance between 11 and 13 is like the DIAMETER of our solar system... well, that was a lot of space.

Well, Antares is a supergiant with a radius of about 5 AU (I forget what orbit number that corresponds to, I stopped using those because I didn't believe that every system has the exact same orbital spacing). So it's 100D limit is 1000 AU! (about 25 times the size of our solar system).

When we were figuring out where to put the planet that's supposed to be around Antares for the Boom Bible Project on JTAS, we decided to stick it around a captured Brown Dwarf orbiting Antares at a distance of about 2000 AU - that made the most sense to us.

Also, if we use First In, we have non-constant orbital slots. Orbit 3 is rarely1 AU from its primary. You've got M8 stars with hab zones so close that the world whips around it in about 2 weeks!

Yes... we're assuming that the system size scales down as the stellar mass drops, but that doesn't mean that every M star has to have a planet in its habitable zone. In fact, given how thin the habitable zone is, it's probably less likely.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by thrash:
Same situation: jump masking was never addressed either way in the rules, but it didn't matter until a detailed analysis of voyage times required a definite answer. Unlike the astrogator analogy, however, the result is a fundamental part of the fictional "physics" of the OTU, and not something that can be glossed over by individual goverments with divergent policies.

The (non-existence of) jump masking was addressed in the rules and the support material. Not only in a general way by the fact that it was never mentioned in any description of jump in any of the rules and adventures (which I do not agree with you is without any significance whatsoever), but also specifically in MT's Imperial Encyclopedia where we have a step by step description of a typical jump and all the rules associated therewith. Jump masking is not mentioned. If jump masking had been a part of the MT rules, that description should[*] have included rolls to determine if a jump would be affected by jump masking and tables to determine how much time it would add to the trip. Nothing of the sort is mentioned. And in this case I think that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

[*] There is one reason why I don't say 'would definitely have'.I admit that there is one thing that counts against my argument: The same tables do not mention stellar jump shadowing either. And they should have, I admit. But at least stellar jump shadowing does not affect jumps to and from a large number of Traveller worlds. Jump masking affects a lot more than 50% of all jumps. So while it might be defensible to say that a typical jump would not be affected by stellar jump shadowing, it is not, IMO, defensible to say that a typical jump would not be affected by jump masking.


Hans

 

[Andrew Boulton]

74% of all mainworlds are permanently shadowed.

Presumably that assumes the mainworlds are in the habitable zone. Many will be, but there's no guarantee. In fact, this is a good reason for them to be further out (and an explanation for why people are living on a desolate rock instead of the nicer world nearby - it's easier to get to).