Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Depends on your definition. Many mainworlds are pretty unpleasant places, but people still live there.
You can sometimes manage an Earthlike world outside the hab zone by tweaking things like greenhouse factor.
By careful application of albedo and greenhousing, you can get habitable worlds outside the hab zone. Gas giants can also generate heat; they radiate heat themselves, and their mass can stir up tidal forces pretty good. It may be possible that Earth could find an orbit around Jupiter and the environment might be nearly the same... well, excepting that a lot of plants need a lot of sunlight... anyway, the point is that it might be possible. I have no idea what kinds of calculations would be necessary, but if you want to see an example, read "A World out of Time".
Anyway, I can easily generate hab worlds outside the normal hab zone, using any of the system gen rules (WBH, WTH, GT:FI), and these don't really take tidal or GG heat into account. (They don't really take second-sun into account either.) Simply adjusting the albedo and greenhouse effect can allow normal worlds inside or outside the normal limits. This is a change of about 50% or so, not huge. Like Earth orbiting where Mars is, maybe where Venus is.
Then there's terraforming. You can use that to change albedo and greenhouse far beyond what is normally possible. You can set up solar shades or solar magnifiers. You can stir up the planet's core. I'm sure there's lots of ways to alter an environment.
Anyway, I can easily generate hab worlds outside the normal hab zone, using any of the system gen rules (WBH, WTH, GT:FI), and these don't really take tidal or GG heat into account. (They don't really take second-sun into account either.) Simply adjusting the albedo and greenhouse effect can allow normal worlds inside or outside the normal limits. This is a change of about 50% or so, not huge. Like Earth orbiting where Mars is, maybe where Venus is.
Then there's terraforming. You can use that to change albedo and greenhouse far beyond what is normally possible. You can set up solar shades or solar magnifiers. You can stir up the planet's core. I'm sure there's lots of ways to alter an environment.
You know, you may be right. In which case neither jump masking nor jump shadowing appear in any prior incarnation of Traveller. (I'm not sure though; isn't jump shadowing mentioned in various MT system writeups?).
I doubt that was the original intent. If it was, it was an extraordinarily muddled-headed idea, considering that the Kinunir was lost before Norris ever became duke and was found several years before it was needed. In any case, it was established in SMC that it was not the Kinunir warrant.
Hans
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Yes, but the CT^ and MT rules didn't do that. They had tables of orbits around the various star types which defined if an orbit was an inner, life zone, or outer orbit. And those around red dwarfs had only outer zones.</font>[/QUOTE]CT Book 6 had albedo and greenhouse rules - and nothing to explicitly stop anyone from making a habitable world outside the 'habitable zone' anyway.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In any case, it was established in SMC that it was not the Kinunir warrant.
Does SMC stand for the CT supplement The Spinward Marches Campaign
, because if it does it is mentioned that there is slight evidence that the warrant was recovered from a wrecked cruiser (the Kinunir?) down on the interdicted world of Algine which is only 2 parsecs from the Shionthy Belt.
According to Avery the Kinunir Warrant is the one Norris used, just look here . Perhaps it's time for MWM to reveal the whole truth behind the story, alternatively is anyone else who knows prepared to .
Does SMC stand for the CT supplement The Spinward Marches Campaign
, because if it does it is mentioned that there is slight evidence that the warrant was recovered from a wrecked cruiser (the Kinunir?) down on the interdicted world of Algine which is only 2 parsecs from the Shionthy Belt.According to Avery the Kinunir Warrant is the one Norris used, just look here . Perhaps it's time for MWM to reveal the whole truth behind the story, alternatively is anyone else who knows prepared to
.Yes.
Not the Kinunir. The Kinunir was lost in 1088. It was presumably found in 1105, the year the adventure was set, in the Shionthy system. The cruiser carrying Norris' warrant was sent from Capital in response to a plea from Norris provoked by the way Santanocheev was mishandling the preparations for the upcoming war. That cruiser was lost on Algine.
I know. I'm not saying Marc doesn't claim that the two warrants are identical, I'm saying that the claim is internally inconsistent. Marc's proprietary rights to the Traveller Universe does not extend to the laws of logic.
By all means. If Marc will provide a plausible explanation how a warrant issued before 1088 and recovered in 1105 can be the same as a warrant issued after Santanocheev became sector admiral, I'll hail it with loud hosannas.Perhaps it's time for MWM to reveal the whole truth behind the story, alternatively is anyone else who knows prepared to
Hans
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Possible spoilers may follow, if you're a (new) player your GM would probably appreciate you avoiding reading beyond here
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Well this is how I might rationalize it all*...
1084 - Fourth Frontier War ends. A young Duke Norris dispatches a ship, BC-9514 Kinunir, on a secret personal mission to appeal to the Emperor for more powers.
1086 - The Emperor issues an Imperial Warrant to be carried to Duke Norris aboard the Kinunir. Admiral Santanocheev's supporters at court get wind of the warrant and sabotage the ship's AI, embedding a code for the ship to 'hard land' (i.e. crash) on Algine while enroute.
1088 - The colonial Battle Cruiser Kinunir is reported overdue while on routine patrol in the Regina subsector area. A subsector wide search fails to locate any trace. Norris suspects foul play on Santanocheev's part but without proof, or knowledge of the Emperor's answer he cannot openly admit the true nature of the ship's mission. Effectively powerless for the time he returns to his duties to wait for an oppurtunity and does what he can to forstall the next frontier war he anticpates. The Emperor presumes the Duke's need for the warrant has passed or not yet come to pass and forgets about the minor politics of a far flung sector. Admiral Santanocheev discretely checks for the wreakage on Algine and is confused to not find it but can admit nothing, nor look too hard without arousing suspicion.
1105 - The crew of (ship's name deleted) discover the disabled Kinunir in the Shionthy system. While investigating it they restore the computer and it finally enacts it's embedded orders and eventually crashes on Algine. The incident is reported and the matter of the Kinunir is closed and buried by the Office of Naval Information (Santanocheev's private intelligence branch).
1107 - The Fifth Frontier War Duke Norris anticipated finally erupts. In the flood of information resurrected to plan the coming battles a heavily censored report of the ultimate fate of the Kinunir catches the attention of a Naval Intelligence operative who knew of it's true mission and he discretely alerts Duke Norris. Norris secretly visits the crash site while rumors of illness or worse circulate over his absence. He scours the wreckage and finds the warrant still secured in the indestructable safe. He returns home and while waging the war sets in motion his plan to put his operatives, loyal and witness to the warrant, in place for his coup.
1109 - Norris relieves Santanocheev of command by official decree of the Emperor's Imperial Warrant.
* - Or most of it anyway, there are of course other problems with Adventure 1 and The Spinward Marches Campaign, especially if you ran your own Adventure 1 differently. Like if you let the PC's find the warrant. Anyway, all I'm saying is with a little imagination I can make it all work, including MWM's statement taken just as it is.
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Well this is how I might rationalize it all*...
1084 - Fourth Frontier War ends. A young Duke Norris dispatches a ship, BC-9514 Kinunir, on a secret personal mission to appeal to the Emperor for more powers.
1086 - The Emperor issues an Imperial Warrant to be carried to Duke Norris aboard the Kinunir. Admiral Santanocheev's supporters at court get wind of the warrant and sabotage the ship's AI, embedding a code for the ship to 'hard land' (i.e. crash) on Algine while enroute.
1088 - The colonial Battle Cruiser Kinunir is reported overdue while on routine patrol in the Regina subsector area. A subsector wide search fails to locate any trace. Norris suspects foul play on Santanocheev's part but without proof, or knowledge of the Emperor's answer he cannot openly admit the true nature of the ship's mission. Effectively powerless for the time he returns to his duties to wait for an oppurtunity and does what he can to forstall the next frontier war he anticpates. The Emperor presumes the Duke's need for the warrant has passed or not yet come to pass and forgets about the minor politics of a far flung sector. Admiral Santanocheev discretely checks for the wreakage on Algine and is confused to not find it but can admit nothing, nor look too hard without arousing suspicion.
1105 - The crew of (ship's name deleted) discover the disabled Kinunir in the Shionthy system. While investigating it they restore the computer and it finally enacts it's embedded orders and eventually crashes on Algine. The incident is reported and the matter of the Kinunir is closed and buried by the Office of Naval Information (Santanocheev's private intelligence branch).
1107 - The Fifth Frontier War Duke Norris anticipated finally erupts. In the flood of information resurrected to plan the coming battles a heavily censored report of the ultimate fate of the Kinunir catches the attention of a Naval Intelligence operative who knew of it's true mission and he discretely alerts Duke Norris. Norris secretly visits the crash site while rumors of illness or worse circulate over his absence. He scours the wreckage and finds the warrant still secured in the indestructable safe. He returns home and while waging the war sets in motion his plan to put his operatives, loyal and witness to the warrant, in place for his coup.
1109 - Norris relieves Santanocheev of command by official decree of the Emperor's Imperial Warrant.
* - Or most of it anyway, there are of course other problems with Adventure 1 and The Spinward Marches Campaign, especially if you ran your own Adventure 1 differently. Like if you let the PC's find the warrant. Anyway, all I'm saying is with a little imagination I can make it all work, including MWM's statement taken just as it is.
Norris was a second son and an Imperial Navy officer until the death of his older brother William in 1097. He succeeded to the dukedom upon the death of his father in 1098.
I don't know what rank Santy had in 1086, but in 1105 he was a rear admiral occupying one of what must be at least a dozen equally ranked admiral's positions in the Regina subsector alone ( Commander-in-Chief, Naval Intelligence, Regina Subsector). (He must have been jumped over scores of higher-ranking admirals to get the sector admiral's spot by 1107).
Hmm. Come to think about it, Norris must have been complaining about Santy's predecessor. Howsomever, his complaint reached Capital much later than 1086. There's a scene in Travellers' Digest #9 where we see Strephon watching Norris' message. I'd have to wait till I get home to see what date that was.
And another thing: The Kinunir was built in the Marches, it is stationed in the Marches, and it has a jump-4 drive. And yet Strephon chooses it to convey a Very Important Message from Capital to the Marches?
Am I the only one who thinks that sounds a little peculiar?
Late 1089 or early 1090 - Not having recieved an acknowledgement of receipt of the warrant from Norris, Strephon declares the first warrant null and void and issues a new one.
BTW, according to Behind the Claw Norris spends the time between the end of the 4FW and 1097 in other parts of the Imperium. I realize this isn't the most solid of evidence, so I only mention it for completeness.
Hans
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Norris was a second son and an Imperial Navy officer until the death of his older brother William in 1097. He succeeded to the dukedom upon the death of his father in 1098.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hmm, so maybe it should be Norris's Pa and Santy's Pa feuding originally and the boys just continued it? Or move up the date of Norris's secret mission for the Kinunir to this time. It's reported loss earlier was a sham whereby the then IN Officer "liberated" an asset for covert work? Explain's why a full out Naval search failed to find it and it never turned up before. Also covers why the ship survived adrift in a belt of contra-terrene for 2 deacdes if we believe the "official" story. I always thought it should have long been totally destroyed (roll 3+ per hour to avoid contact explosion, over some 20 years). I don't know, there are holes in some of the adventures big enough to fly a Tigress through, blind.
I don't know what rank Santy had in 1086, but in 1105 he was a rear admiral occupying one of what must be at least a dozen equally ranked admiral's positions in the Regina subsector alone ( Commander-in-Chief, Naval Intelligence, Regina Subsector). (He must have been jumped over scores of higher-ranking admirals to get the sector admiral's spot by 1107).
Hmm. Come to think about it, Norris must have been complaining about Santy's predecessor. Howsomever, his complaint reached Capital much later than 1086. There's a scene in Travellers' Digest #9 where we see Strephon watching Norris' message. I'd have to wait till I get home to see what date that was.</font>[/QUOTE]Or continuing the extended family feud theme, Norris checking on the status of his Pa's warrant? I don't much like it though. Maybe the scene is old or there's a date error, or it's another matter altogether?
Maybe, maybe not. He'd want to do it quietly. A single local ship he can crew with trusted supporters and one that could be not missed while on (officially) an extended post-war tour of border patrols? And the Jump 4 would give it the legs for such a long haul, I think.
Could be, my sources are far from complete anymore, or is this your own idea? I feel it more likely the Emperor would have more on his mind than a petty power squabble way off in the Marches and would simply forget it until the warrant reappreared and then to maintain face he would accept it and have Norris come by Capital for the official ceremony at his convienience
That's right, wasn't he off fooling around with Longbow or some such thing, or is that later? Not that it's that important like you say. Anyway my story plot is based on just the info in Adventure 1 and SCM, more or less, it's been a while and more info is always being added. My main point (to belabor it a little more) is the GM should be able to make things fit well enough with a little imagination. Should it be the GM's job to patch and fix inconsistancies in published official adventures meant to be run "out of the box"? Obviously no, but in all my years of gaming that's been much more the exception rather than the rule.
Anyway this is drifting well off the original topic and I've about run out of useful comment so it might be a good place for me to sign off. Thanks for the feedback.
It's not difficult to come up with a story that fits if you can change things around as you like and ignore any information that happens to be inconvenient.
That's just my point. A jump-4 ship doesn't have the legs to be a courier between Capital and the border. A jump-6 route that connects Mora and Capital (and includes a few 5-parsec jumps to allow the route to touch the sector capitals of Deneb, Corridor, and Vland en route) is 31 jumps long. From Mora to Regina is another four jumps. Assuming such a ship can manage to average only 24 hours in real space per jump, it would take it 280 days to get from Regina to Capital and another 280 days to get back again. I haven't worked out what route a jump-4 ship would have to take, but let's assume it amounts to no more than 50% more jumps. Now we're talking about 420 days or 14 months each way.
Meanwhile a navy courier link that used a brace of ships for each jump in the chain can achieve an average of 6.75 day per jump. But even if neither Norris nor Strephon trusts the Navy, a jump-6 courier still outperforms a jump-4 courier something fierce.
Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was extrapolating from your assumptions, attempting to show a flaw therein.
As a duke, Norris is one of the 300-400 most important men in the Imperium. I find it difficult to believe that Strephon wouldn't keep taps on what was going on. Certainly not to the extent of forgetting the whole matter for over a decade. And this doesn't even address the possibility that Norris would send him a nudge note.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Has anyone else considered that when Adventure 1 was written we were still in the "small ship" version of the Imperium where, pre High Guard, a few 1200t cruisers, were protecting the Spinward Marches against piracy and Zhodani incursion.
Perhaps all capital ships carried a warrant to allow the ship's Captain (who is of Baron+ rank socially, at least he/she is on the crew list) to intervene in the Emperor's name if a situation demands it as a last resort.
Norris couldn't just commandeer a ship to gain access to a warrant so he had to do the next best thing, find a derelict ship.
Perhaps all capital ships carried a warrant to allow the ship's Captain (who is of Baron+ rank socially, at least he/she is on the crew list) to intervene in the Emperor's name if a situation demands it as a last resort.
Norris couldn't just commandeer a ship to gain access to a warrant so he had to do the next best thing, find a derelict ship.
Tim Soholt
SOC-8
I don't remember where I got this from - a TD interview with someone, maybe? - but I always thought that Norris had filled out a blank warrant to give himself the authority to oust Santocheev, and the only reason Strephon didn't have him shot as a traitor was the fact that he won the war.
Rupert Boleyn
SOC-12
I realised that the system's star should have such an effect, back when I bought MT (my first set of Traveller rules), but I had no contact with other Traveller fans back then. Besides, I was playing and running T2K, so it was a minor niggle with a system that was sitting on the shelf, rather than something of vast importance to my then curret campaign.
I find the idea of a 'blanco' Imperial Warrant quite silly too. And how did a masterless Imperial Warrant wind up in the Kinunir in the first place?
But you hit a bullseye with your last comment. It doesn't really matter what the original intent was, The Spinward Marches Campaign established that it was two different warrants. And if there ever was a 'To Bearer' warrant on the Kinunir in the first place, it never reached Norris, because if he had recieved it in 1105, why was he mucking about without if for the first half of the 5FW?
Hans
Erik Boielle
SOC-12
Nout wrong with a blank warrant, ifn you ask me.
If central command wants to send out an order, they have to send something previously agreed to prove the order is genuine because, like, getting confirmation is going as easy as picking up a phone.
They seem to have choosen stationary as the method of choice, possibly so that orders can be sent to more than one place without, say, the Imperial seal of authority having to visit each one.
You tell people not to loose it, or abuse the privilege, and then send them off. And let characters have adventures when everything goes wrong.
If central command wants to send out an order, they have to send something previously agreed to prove the order is genuine because, like, getting confirmation is going as easy as picking up a phone.
They seem to have choosen stationary as the method of choice, possibly so that orders can be sent to more than one place without, say, the Imperial seal of authority having to visit each one.
You tell people not to loose it, or abuse the privilege, and then send them off. And let characters have adventures when everything goes wrong.
We shall have to agree to disagree on that. If I was Strephon, I would want a lot more safeguards involved in using something as powerful as an Imperial Warrant than just an instruction to not lose it.
I think something like that would be hedged about with conditions such as who could use it (a named person or in rare cases the holder of a specific office; how long it would last (could be relatively long given communication times, but probably not more than would allow enough time for Strephon to get reports back in a timely fashion and a bit over for accidents and delays); where it could be used (wherever the problem the warrant holder is supposed to solve happens to be); and what it could and could not be use for (Whatever problem the warrant holder is supposed to solve and don't break any laws or annoy the Emperor's cousin).
Mind you, I'm not saying that all warrants would have all these restrictions. Someone that Strephon knew personally and whose judgement and integrity he trusted completely might get one that was merely limited to who could use it (the trusted guy, him alone, no one else!). Someone else might get a warrant that allowed him to make peace with a neighbor "...using any means short of ceding Imperial territory or lowering the dignity of the Imperium". A warrant made out to the holder of a specific office, someone Strephon didn't know much about or who might have been succeeded by someone completely unknown before the warrant even reached him would be much more limited, perhaps by both area, time, and scope.
But one type of warrant I definitely don't believe in is the one that reads "Assist the bearer of this warrant, whoever he may be, to do whatever he wants, for as long as he wants you to".
Sorry, no, I just don't believe it.
Hans
I know all that. I just don't believe it. If it had been
"The bearer of this warrant, my good and trusted vassal, Norris III, 12th Duke of Regina, is acting for the good of the Imperium and the Emperor. Extend him every assistance.
"Strephon"
that would be different.
Hans
I agree with Hans.
An Imperial Warrant is not just a handy note from your parents - it basically says 'treat this carrier, whoever he is, as if he were me (the Emperor)'. Now, that is more than a *little* power. So I think Hans concept of how it should be limited is appropriate.
Note also that the adventure says there is a signed Imperial Warrant. Is there anywhere that it says it is a legitemate warrant and not a forgery? (It may not say that it is a forgery, but if it has no confirmation of integrity, then once can assume that it is a forgery perhaps.... probably what I would do....).
Blank Warrants are silly. They could easily be used, if given to say.... Dulinor... to arrange a rather amazing little Rebellion! That kind of power is something prudent Emperors would be loathe to bandy about. Oh wait.... Strephon proved he was *not* a prudent Emperor......
An Imperial Warrant is not just a handy note from your parents - it basically says 'treat this carrier, whoever he is, as if he were me (the Emperor)'. Now, that is more than a *little* power. So I think Hans concept of how it should be limited is appropriate.
Note also that the adventure says there is a signed Imperial Warrant. Is there anywhere that it says it is a legitemate warrant and not a forgery? (It may not say that it is a forgery, but if it has no confirmation of integrity, then once can assume that it is a forgery perhaps.... probably what I would do....).
Blank Warrants are silly. They could easily be used, if given to say.... Dulinor... to arrange a rather amazing little Rebellion! That kind of power is something prudent Emperors would be loathe to bandy about. Oh wait.... Strephon proved he was *not* a prudent Emperor......
