Another reason for the large size of starship computers.

[snrdg082102]

Hello everyone,

A while back Hunter commented that the starship design sequence is heavily influenced by CT Book 5: High Guard. In both CT Book 2 Starships and HG computers are fairly large. In the same or another post he stated that the Ship's Computer design steps were broken down into a main computer and 3 sub-computer systems as an attempt to clarify why these computers are so large. I have come up with an additional reason for the size, which is based partly on the real world and partly on MT: Starship Operator's Manual (SOM) Vol. 1 by DGP. The simple answer is redundancy. Today the space shuttle, most sea going vessels, large airplanes, and other large vehicles have redundant systems built in. The space shuttles, IIRC, have 6 computers that are running and at least 3 must agree before certain maneuvers can be conducted. Most sea going vessels have redundant systems for electrical power, ballast and fuel distibution as well as other critical systems. This doesn't mean that the systems are still working after several years on the job. The SOM, unfortunately not currently on the list of cannon material, indicates that the ship's main computer is actually composed of 3 identical systems. One is the primary and the other 2 are backups. The two backups cross check with the primary to ensure that it is functioning properly. As long as one of the 3 is focused on running the vital ship systems the other 2 can be used by passengers and crew for more mundane tasks like studying for rating exams, writing a novel, playing games, or any thing else.

 

[tjoneslo]

I remember an early White Dwarf magazine article (say early 80s) about the size of Traveller computers. The "computer system" also needs to include the terminals to access the computer. Which, at 1/2 a dton each, most of which is access space, adds up quickly.

 

[robject]

One persistent argument against big ship computers is that computers were huge in the 1970's, therefore GDW assumed they were huge in the far future.

I think the real reason is that space combat hinges on the computer.

Computers have always been shrinking by an order of magnitude every decade or so (1950, 1960, 1970...). Niven's Motie book (1970 or 1971) had crew scribbling on Palm Pilots which were wirelessly interfaced to the ship's computer, which was of indeterminate/inconsequential size. So GDW probably could figure out Moore's Law.

I think the main reason computers are so large is that they gave a tactical advantage in combat, and their size was to limit the overall combat capabilities of small craft.

So, this seems to tie into the debate about how useful fighters are/should be in Traveller.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

We always used to play Traveller knowing computers would indeed get smaller and better as time goes on, the explination that was most handy for computer tonnage was that they were KICK ASS computers that could control starships. They talked, they had lots of lights, etc. It was easy to imagine something way better, since back in the day, all we had were ViC 20s or maybe a PCjr.

 

[Mythmere]

zero gee & vaccuum protection, and impact padding. also lots of graphics applications.

 

[Falkayn]

Also, the starship design sequence includes communications hardware in the computer. Seeing as that will probably include dishes, antennas, etc. that could take up a lot of volume.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Falkayn,

I think I mentioned that in my earlier post that T20 computers a divided into 4 sections, the main computer and 3 sub-computers. Of course I did not include that the sub-computers were designed to handle the specific functions of avionics, communications and sensors. However, the dishes, antennas, and other sensor systems are part of the external features and would only take up a small amount of internal volume.

Also, I'd like to mention that every chance I get I post a link to your download page, hopefully I am adding to the traffic on your great web site.

Originally posted by Falkayn:
Also, the starship design sequence includes communications hardware in the computer. Seeing as that will probably include dishes, antennas, etc. that could take up a lot of volume.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Also, I'd like to mention that every chance I get I post a link to your download page, hopefully I am adding to the traffic on your great web site.

Thanks Tom!

I;m not sure we can handwave things away as 'external features'. Most starship designs (i.e. pictures) don't seem to have much hanging off them. That either suggests stuff folds away, or that it is kept internally.

Also, we have no idea what it takes to send/receive holographic data as ships seem able to in the OTU. Perhaps in order to handle the sort of traffic a high-tech system generates there is a fair amount of hardware required?

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning (PDT) Falkayn,

You're welcome, I like to share sites that have good content.

You're correct that most of the pictures don't show ships having large structures for antennas like the ships in 2001: A Space Odyssey, Star Trek, or Star Wars. Once again I left out a key detail on my idea of external and internal. The actual sensor/antenna "external" fittings are integrated into the hull in a similar fashion to the phased, flat-panel, radar antennas used on the latest generations of warships. These sensor fittings are connected to the computer via some type of cable, again similar to today's wiring and, if hardened, with fiber-optic cables. The computer which CT defined as being housed in 1 location, adjacent to the bridge in most cases, is my idea of internal. Now the main computer housing the primary core and the 3 sub-computers, (in theory) one or more identical systems (not housed adjacent to the bridge), control panels/terminals for comunicating with main ships computer, and other supporting systems make up the internal volume. So the sensor/antenna fittings in my view would not be considered part of the computr volume.

Sorry for the lack of detail in the earlier post, hopefully I've let some of the mud settle and given a clearer view of my concept of internal and external.

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Also, I'd like to mention that every chance I get I post a link to your download page, hopefully I am adding to the traffic on your great web site.

Thanks Tom!

I;m not sure we can handwave things away as 'external features'. Most starship designs (i.e. pictures) don't seem to have much hanging off them. That either suggests stuff folds away, or that it is kept internally.

Also, we have no idea what it takes to send/receive holographic data as ships seem able to in the OTU. Perhaps in order to handle the sort of traffic a high-tech system generates there is a fair amount of hardware required? </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[kaladorn]

Two points:

Toughness. Space is a tough place. If your g comp kicks out or you have to go vacc or lose your temp, your computer has to survive the effects. It has to handle EM radiations. It has to handle spacers...

Also, who knows how hard jump drive math really is? Maybe Jump Calcs take brutal levels of compute power, even accomodating Moore's Theorem.

Now, the real thing is that if the computer has to be so big to support jump calcs, then system fighters etc. can have small 'puters. And any starship should have amazing compute power when it isn't crunching jump numbers. That'll help with trade pattern analysis, tactical projection programs, etc.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello kaladorn,

Good points about a computer having to handle vacuum and temperature extremes. I wouldn't think Zero-g would have any effect on a computer, but those ham handed spacers are probably the best reason. In theory EM Radiation should be minimized by the hull and other safe guards that protect passengers, cargo, and crew. Also, adding the FIB option will take care of the radiation problem.

The jump program table and the generate program on p. 232 in theory, shows the processing power capacity required. Your analysis of the processing power appears to be correct for small craft, spacecraft not jump capable, and the available power for a starship after returning to normal space.

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Two points:

Toughness. Space is a tough place. If your g comp kicks out or you have to go vacc or lose your temp, your computer has to survive the effects. It has to handle EM radiations. It has to handle spacers...

Also, who knows how hard jump drive math really is? Maybe Jump Calcs take brutal levels of compute power, even accomodating Moore's Theorem.

Now, the real thing is that if the computer has to be so big to support jump calcs, then system fighters etc. can have small 'puters. And any starship should have amazing compute power when it isn't crunching jump numbers. That'll help with trade pattern analysis, tactical projection programs, etc.

 

[Aramond]

Also anyone who has worked in the IT industry can also tell you that ther e is much more than just the "Box" when you consider enivronmental factors too, the equipment needs to preparedto be subjected extreme cold and heat, both of which are big no-no's for modern systems, then there is dust filitration, and so on.... The bigger the comp the more capactity all of these things need.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Aramond,

What you mean that a PC workstation is not a dust filteration system?

I work in the IT shop of a college and what you say is true about the support systems for a computer.

One of the details that bothered me with CT is that the computer in most of the designs are always adjacent to the bridge for both civilian and military vessels. Most of the vital equipment, at least for the military, when possible is stuck somewhere near the center of the ship both verically and horizontally. In addition to moving the core towards the center line the vital areas have additional armor. Of course a hit in the right spot with a large enough weapon could still get through and still kill that vital spot.

Originally posted by Aramond:
Also anyone who has worked in the IT industry can also tell you that ther e is much more than just the "Box" when you consider enivronmental factors too, the equipment needs to preparedto be subjected extreme cold and heat, both of which are big no-no's for modern systems, then there is dust filitration, and so on.... The bigger the comp the more capactity all of these things need.