Anyone tried T5 ships?

[polypterus]

I just got the beta T5 PDF and I was trying to design a couple starships. The system in general seems Ok but I'm confused by a couple things. For instance rules for hull armor tonnage is given in two places that contradict each other. Also there seems to be a problem with power plant fuel such that high jump ships become problematic to build if you specify the standard four week duration. I was just wondering if anyone else had any experience with T5 starships.

 

[aramis]

Small ships in CT could not attain high jump numbers, either.

For comparison:
A CT 1E 100Td ship can only attain J5 because it can go without a PP:
020 Bridge
020 JD C=6
050 JFuel = 1J5
001 Mod 1/bis
004 SR x

A CT 2E (1981 and later CT) can't even do that, since PP has to meet or beat the JD rating.
020 Bridge
015 JD B = 4
007 PP B = 4
030 JFuel = 1J3
030 PP Fuel = 4 weeks P3 or 3 weeks P4
004 Mod 4 Comp
and it's already over tonnage...

The first J6 capable CT hull in CT2E is about 800 Td...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

First things first.

First, a question are you using the T5 CD ACS system or the Drafts posted in the T5 Private Forum?

If you are using the ACS off of the CD you might want to pester Don about getting into the T5 Private Forum as the most recent drafts, which in places (like Armor) have been seriously revamped from what is on the CD, are located there. It might make things a bit easier for you.

I know the newest version doesn't seem all that outrageous, but then I haven't tried to create a J-4+ ship yet. Frankly, if I was going to go for high Jump potentials then I would go with Drop Tanks and Transfer Pumps and save the tonnage taken up by the Jump Fuel which always takes huge amounts of tonnage for the higher Jump numbers.

Hope that helps a bit. If you got any other questions, I might be able to help since I have been working with ACS for some time now.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[polypterus]

Small ships in CT could not attain high jump numbers, either.

I'm not really talking about 100 tons. Let's look at 1000 Tons, TL 15

Bridge 30 Tons
Jump Drive 6 (Z) 125 Tons
Power Plant 6 (Z) 61 Tons
Maneuver Drive 1 (E) 9 Tons
JD Fuel 500 Tons
PP Fuel 240 Tons (four weeks)

Maybe I did something wrong but in any case that's 965 tons and leaves 35 tons for every thing else. I seem to remember doing a lot better than that in High Guard.

 

[aramis]

I'm not really talking about 100 tons. Let's look at 1000 Tons, TL 15

Bridge 30 Tons
Jump Drive 6 (Z) 125 Tons
Power Plant 6 (Z) 61 Tons
Maneuver Drive 1 (E) 9 Tons
JD Fuel 500 Tons
PP Fuel 240 Tons (four weeks)

Maybe I did something wrong but in any case that's 965 tons and leaves 35 tons for every thing else. I seem to remember doing a lot better than that in High Guard.

HG 2E (1980):
020 Bridge
006 Model 6
070 JD 6
060 PP6 TL F
600 JD Fuel
060 PP Fuel
184 Everything else. Req. Crew P,N,M,4E —or— 5 Cmd, 2 Engr

CT 2E 1000Td (which is closer in design patterns to T5):
020 Bridge
006 Model 6
115 JD X = 6
067 PP X = 6
600 JD Fuel
060 PP Fuel
138 everything else, including required crew P, N, M, 5E for a MINIMUM of 16 tons of SR.

 

[polypterus]

First, a question are you using the T5 CD ACS system or the Drafts posted in the T5 Private Forum?

I'm using the the CD from farfuture.net

Frankly, if I was going to go for high Jump potentials then I would go with Drop Tanks and Transfer Pumps and save the tonnage taken up by the Jump Fuel which always takes huge amounts of tonnage for the higher Jump numbers.

Not really my style because you need to replace tanks a lot and can only use the high jump in more civilized areas. Certainly that's an option depending on what you are trying to do. I've built ships that can span 12 with Jump 6 and drop tanks using High Guard.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Okay then.

Well, that would be part of the problem, you are using way outdated ACS numbers.

Currently the PP Fuel is 1% of Hull Tonnage per Month. So at PP-6 and 1000 tons that should only be 60 tons for PP Fuel. That right there should drop the numbers into range of doable. Of course you are still losing 600 tons to the Jump Fuel, but that has alway been the way it is in Traveller.

And again, I really do suggest you ask Don to sling you a hall pass for the T5 forum.

 

[polypterus]

HG 2E (1980):
020 Bridge
006 Model 6
070 JD 6
060 PP6 TL F
600 JD Fuel
060 PP Fuel

You missed the MD but even with it you are still way ahead of T5 so you see my point.

 

[polypterus]

Of course you are still losing 600 tons to the Jump Fuel, but that has alway been the way it is in Traveller.

As I read it 500 Tons because of Overclock unless that's changed also.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Sort of...

Well, it has been replaced with Drive TL Efficiency. Similar results, but different way to do it.

So what TL is your starship?

That will affect its Drive Efficiency. It would have to be TL-G (16) to get any sort of break in Efficiency as TL-F (15) is the earliest you can get to J-6. If you are at TL-F you get no breaks and the Jump Fuel is still 600 tons.

EDIT: One thing you might also want to check out, is Rob's T5 Shipyard App. It uses the latest draft numbers and should be correct. Not to mention it makes generating ships about 1000 times easier than the old pen, calculator and paper method. Also, it let's you get a PDF or .txt file of the ship.

 

[polypterus]

Well, it has been replaced with Drive TL Efficiency. Similar results, but different way to do it.

So what TL is your starship?

That will affect its Drive Efficiency. It would have to be TL-G (16) to get any sort of break in Efficiency as TL-F (15) is the earliest you can get to J-6. If you are at TL-F you get no breaks and the Jump Fuel is still 600 tons.

My ship is TL 15. I really don't design above 15, It just seems like kind of a cheat. In my outdated version of the T5 rules it was based on actual PP TL above the standard TL of the power plant. PP 6 was TL 13 before so at 15 I could divide overclock (Jump) fuel consumption by 1.2. 600 / 1.2 = 500. Win some, lose some

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

It's been a while, but...

My ship is TL 15. I really don't design above 15, It just seems like kind of a cheat. In my outdated version of the T5 rules it was based on actual PP TL above the standard TL of the power plant. PP 6 was TL 13 before so at 15 I could divide overclock (Jump) fuel consumption by 1.2. 600 / 1.2 = 500. Win some, lose some

As I recall the PP Overclock didn't affect Jump Fuel, just the tonnage of the PP. I may be misremembering it, but I don't think so. To adjust the Fuel for the J-Drive you still needed to have an Overclocked J-Drive. I think...it was so many drafts ago.

 

[polypterus]

And again, I really do suggest you ask Don to sling you a hall pass for the T5 forum.

Is that the Moot thing I see? I can just pay the 12 bucks. It's a lot less than the what I paid for T5 Kickstarter

 

[polypterus]

As I recall the PP Overclock didn't affect Jump Fuel, just the tonnage of the PP

Here's what is says:

OVERCLOCK

Overclock is a measure of the efficiency of a Power
Plant. A standard Power Plant operates with Overclock=
100 for Potential based on Tech Level. Power Plants at
other TLs have different Overclock. Overclock affects
Power Plant tons and Jump Fuel tons.

True Power Plant tons = P- Plant Tons / (OC/100)
True Jump Fuel tons= Fuel / (OC/100)

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Like I said...

As I recall the PP Overclock didn't affect Jump Fuel, just the tonnage of the PP

Here's what is says:

OVERCLOCK

Overclock is a measure of the efficiency of a Power
Plant. A standard Power Plant operates with Overclock=
100 for Potential based on Tech Level. Power Plants at
other TLs have different Overclock. Overclock affects
Power Plant tons and Jump Fuel tons.

True Power Plant tons = P- Plant Tons / (OC/100)
True Jump Fuel tons= Fuel / (OC/100)

Yeah, it has been a while. Well, as far as I know that is not how it goes now, but again, I cheat these days and use Rob's App.

As for the T5 Private Forum, no that is not the Moot thing and it will cost you nothing but time.

PM DonM and let him know that you have purchased the T5 Beta CD and would like to join the T5 Private Forum. He will need to know what name and email you used when you ordered. Then he checks with Marc (who has the master list) and once he has confirmed your purchase with Marc he should grant you access to our little club. It may take a smidge as he is of course super busy, but it shouldn't be too long. If you haven't heard from him in a week, pester him again, but usually he is actually pretty quick about it.

 

[robject]

Using the December 2011 draft.

T5 ACS (Dec 2011) 1000 tons, TLF
010 Bridge (minimal but spacious)
004 Model/4
155 JD Q2 = 6
046 Gen PP Q2 = 6
005 Adv MD E = 1
600 JD Fuel
067 PP Fuel
115 Payload

Max Rating for TL is expensive

Especially for drives at their TL maximum rating, ACS loses to Classic Traveller in at least three ways:

1. High Guard's jump drives are significantly smaller than Book 2's (and conversely it has significantly larger maneuver drives), while ACS more resembles Book 2 in drive sizes.

2. Book 2's largest drives (W, X, Y, Z) grant a large, non-linear advantage in performance to volume and cost. ACS doesn't.

3. Book 2 and ACS power plants are most similar to High Guard power plants at lower tech levels. Thus TLF power plants in HG are smaller than standard ACS power plants.

ACS drives are modified through stage effects, in particular for the power plant and jump drive. If your drive is at its maximum rating for its TL, you're out of luck. Otherwise, by selecting a better jump drive (for example) you could shrink the jump fuel volume by 10% to 30% (a concept adapted from MegaTraveller).

As another example, an ACS 'Generic' PowerPlant is smaller than HG power plants, and can be worth the tradeoff. Even better would be an 'Advanced' model, where possible.

As a side note, ACS computers are not required to match the ship's jump number.

 

[polypterus]

ACS drives are modified through stage effects, in particular for the power plant and jump drive. If your drive is at its maximum rating for its TL, you're out of luck. Otherwise, by selecting a better jump drive (for example) you could shrink the jump fuel volume by 10% to 30% (a concept adapted from MegaTraveller).

Is it by drive or jump distance? For instance if you are using a jump-6 TL-15 drive but only jumping 3 do you still get the fuel reduction? If so a jump 6 ship should able to span 8 parsecs. That could open up some routes across the rift with maybe one use of drop tanks. Even if it is by drive (which is kind of dumb when you think about it because you are being penalized for having a more capable drive) it would still work although your ship would be slower.