Are all pirates treated the same?

[Shonner]

I was thinking about the pirates of today and how the US Navy is not really doing much about it. I don't know all the specifics about it. Maybe the Navy will get involved when a US tanker is attacked. Maybe.

So I was checking out how the Imperial Navy rules over the space between worlds. And I wondered if there were situations where the Imperium does nothing about pirates, or if the affected world has to take care of it some how.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

I was thinking about the pirates of today and how the US Navy is not really doing much about it...

And HALT!

THIS is what the United States Navy does about pirates:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/12/somalia.pirates/

3 targets, 3 shots, 3 dead ... and bloody well right!

 

[Shonner]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE60R1A4.htm totals the pirating for the last year. I would think that the Imperium would have a lot on their plate with the number of worlds their space surrounds.

 

[Whipsnade]

Shonner,

Political concerns have always been part of the piracy equation because political cover is so important for the primary concerns of any long term piracy operation: The sale of captured goods and people.

Berbers and Moors sailed as pirates for centuries harrying shipping and coastal communities as far away as Iceland from the North African polities that sheltered them. Europe and America were only able to destroy those pirates in their North African havens when they acquired enough political "muscle" over North Africa's fading Ottoman rulers.

The USN today faces substantial political obstacles in any campaign against piracy, whether it be off the Horn of Africa, in the Straits of Malacca, or in the South China Sea. Two centuries ago, the USN would have sailed into Somali ports, killed and/or scattered the population, and burned the town down just as it routinely did in North Africa in the 1800s and the Dutch East Indies in the 1820s. What's more, such actions would have been both applauded and abetted by the international community.

Today, it's the policy of the civilized world to pretend that the "less tidy" portions of our globe are actually civilized in any meaningful sense of the word. This means a 2010 campaign against piracy must be handled differently than an 1810 campaign against piracy.

While the Third Imperium will still need to factor political concerns into any anti-piracy campaign it undertakes, I think it's not too far off to say that those political concerns will be somewhat fewer than the political concerns the USN and it's western partners face in 2010.

Simply put, the IN will be able to swing a larger stick more often than the USN and others can currently do.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shonner]

While the Third Imperium will still need to factor political concerns into any anti-piracy campaign it undertakes, I think it's not too far off to say that those political concerns will be somewhat fewer than the political concerns the USN and it's western partners face in 2010.

Fewer in the sense that the Imperial Navy has been consistant in how it has taken care of pirates in the past so that they are better "managed" when problems spring up in their space? Because I wonder if the Imperium slacked for just 10-15 years, they may not be able to get back control of un-policed space again that would be occuring in so many places at the same time.

 

[Whipsnade]

Fewer in the sense that the Imperial Navy has been consistant in how it has taken care of pirates in the past so that they are better "managed" when problems spring up in their space?

Shonner,

Fewer in one sense and completely handcuffed in another.

The commander of an IN patroller can spot a Vargr corsair, nuke the damn thing 99 times out of 100, and earn a medal.

Then there's the handcuffs as shown in The Traveller Adventure.

The players engage in a week of piracy at an Arekut deep space refueling point. However, they fear no consequences from that act because of the political cover arraigned by Oberlindes.

Of course that political cover comes with strings. Oberlindes and it's proxies need to play by certain rules and they need to slap a "Trade War" label their acts of piracy. Still, if the same IN commander had come across the operation and killed every "pirate" they found, their career would be over.

Politics always counts, but the IN can skin their holsters much more often than current real world military forces.

Because I wonder if the Imperium slacked for just 10-15 years, they may not be able to get back control of un-policed space again that would be occuring in so many places at the same time.

The Imperium could get things back under control because of all the tools they can bring to the job and the fact that they needn't pull their punches.

The Imperium is going to have numbers on it's side, along with spinal mounts, landing craft, battledress jump troops, grav tanks, and lots of other goodies. Pirates want to limit the destruction of goods/ships/people for later resale whereas the Imperium has no such concerns at all. The Imperium can burn down entire villages with megacredits of ordinance in order to "save" them while the pirates want to, as cheaply as possible, keep the villages standing so they can sell them.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shonner]

I'm gonna look through that Traveller Adventure when I get back to the studio.

On a side note though: "Human" trafficking.

Is there a Traveller adventure or background book that covered the trafficking of, say, Hivers or female Zhodani by another race?

 

[Whipsnade]

On a side note though: "Human" trafficking. Is there a Traveller adventure or background book that covered the trafficking of, say, Hivers or female Zhodani by another race?

Shonner,

There were various reports of human trafficking by Margaret's Faction during the Rebellion. Some saw it as desperate people signing long term indenture contracts in return for evacuation from war zones to safer regions and some saw it as slaving.

I don't think you'll find anything published which is less vague than that however.

The subject is a distasteful one and it can quickly become prurient. That means it just as quickly runs afoul of Mr. Miller's wisely and gently applied "morals clause".

While he has no problems whatsoever with how people fashion and run their campaigns or with the topics those campaigns touch upon, he would rather just not hear about those campaigns and topics however and he will not countenance the publication of such campaigns and topics under the Traveller logo either.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shonner]

Ok. That makes sense. I'll respect Mr. Miller's moral cause. Thanks again.

 

[Whipsnade]

Shonner,

I really goofed up on that last one.

It's a "morals clause" and not a "morals cause".

Sorry.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shonner]

I knew what you meant.

 

[Tellon]

I was thinking about the pirates of today and how the US Navy is not really doing much about it. I don't know all the specifics about it. Maybe the Navy will get involved when a US tanker is attacked. Maybe.

So I was checking out how the Imperial Navy rules over the space between worlds. And I wondered if there were situations where the Imperium does nothing about pirates, or if the affected world has to take care of it some how.

Politics -- We have many times had "terrorists", dictatorships, thugs, mercenaries on "our" side and were considered fighters for freedom ... (Afghanistan in the 80s: .. hmmm, and a certain "terrorist" being a useful CIA pawn)

while those we're fighting against were "evil" people ...

Just look at a certain dictator when he was a CIA installed thug for us vs when he wanted Iraq to use the Euro for oil transactions, as we decided to take him out then ..

--

So it's not the Navy -- as the Solmali pirates were also fighting against illegal toxic dumping on thier side of the border (but you dont hear about it on the news..)

You have to look at the whole Govt, politics, $$$ issue and see how corrupt and stinking rotten the system generaly is.

 

[far-trader]

A general reminder again folks. Real world religion and politics of current or recent history are not permitted here. Tellon's post creeps over the line by naming names. Avoid names and you can cite real world practices. Include names and it leads to trouble. Respond to such and you get lumped in the mix for an infraction too. Simply report and allow us to do the dirty work.

Bad Post Example:

Politics -- We have many times had "terrorists", dictatorships, thugs, mercenaries on "our" side and were considered fighters for freedom ... (Afghanistan in the 80s: Muhajadeen .. hmmm, and Bin Laden being a useful CIA pawn)

while those we're fighting against were "evil" people ...

Just look at Saddam when he was a CIA installed thug for us vs when he wanted Iraq to use the Euro for oil transactions, as we decided to take him out then ..

--

So it's not the Navy -- as the Solmali pirates were also fighting against illegal toxic dumping on thier side of the border (but you dont hear about it on the news..)

You have to look at the whole Govt, politics, $$$ issue and see how corrupt and stinking rotten the system generaly is.

Good Post Example (could have read):

Politics -- We have many times had "terrorists", dictatorships, thugs, mercenaries on "our" side and were considered fighters for freedom...

...while those we're fighting against were "evil" people.

--

So it's not the Navy -- as the pirates were also fighting against illegal toxic dumping on thier side of the border (but you dont hear about it on the news..)

You have to look at the whole Govt, politics, $$$ issue and see how corrupt and stinking rotten the system generaly is.

Tellon: please edit your post appropriately to avoid further sanctions.

 

[Tellon]

Tellon: please edit your post appropriately to avoid further sanctions.

Took out the names & kept the rest

 

[far-trader]

Took out the names & kept the rest

Excellent. Thank you very much

 

[Tellon]

Excellent. Thank you very much

No prob -- now let's get back to the OP -- so we dont look like we hijaked a good thread ..

 

[jpster]

I Loved This Post!

Questions like these can spark the most interesting discussions. In Traveller, piracy can span the spectrum from analogs of what we find off the Horn of Africa now to the buckaneers of the Spanish Main, to the legalized commerce raiders (Letters of Marque or Privateers) sponsered by individual governments (covertly or not) against their declared or undeclared enemies. Don't forget other types of transportation requiring shipping outside the legal system like customs and immigration evasion. MTU uses the "Age of Sail" communications concept to the advantage of those who desire to outrun their warrants, but a close eye on the calendar usually makes for a steadily decreasing area of refuge. The one exception I make to my players is that in an advanced, highly bureaucratic society, noble influence, expensive legal representation, hefty fines, and prison sentences (maybe even a secret deal with the government?) can take the place of gibbeted on Thames Estuary.

 

[Lycanorukke]

So I was checking out how the Imperial Navy rules over the space between worlds. And I wondered if there were situations where the Imperium does nothing about pirates, or if the affected world has to take care of it some how.

Apart from the politics (which has been covered) and which the imperium is not likely to care about, you also have the cost of your anti-pirate efforts. Piracy has been going on off in various regions for a very long time - longer than their lastest exploits featured in a TAS advisory. More active pirates groups would be generally ignored as a business risk, until they start getting cocky, start shooting things, or surge in numbers. When this happens, people start paying attention, governments react to 'reduce economic losses' and things go from there. Conversely other regions would have had a slight drop in the amount of piracy and no one ever hears of it.

So as long as the local pirates dont 'crap in their own nest', they may be able to get away with it for quite some time. Doing agressive 'anti-pirate' patrols is expensive in time, manpower and credits. So as long as the cost (economic and political) caused by the pirates is less than the cost of wiping them out, governments turn a blind eye out of simple economic reasons. The insurance companies may not like it - but they just raise the premiums to cover it. But if something causes the 'pirate cost' to increase sharply, people start stirring uncomfortably.

Grab the ocassional Subbie, Free Trader and prehaps a freighter if you feel daring - the planetary government/Imperium would most likely step up token patrols for a bit then do nothing. For them to do otherwise would be a massive drain on funds and resources just for a few merchies who were insured anyway (you were insured right?). Of course the ships owners may not like this, so they hire some 'problem solvers' (PC's) to make the pirates go away...

But knock off a Megacorp freighter, the Counts personal treasure ship or just start getting greedy, then expect the IN to drop by and stomp on you hard. The same also applies if the pirates start shooting up passengers, blowing up ships, etc. Once the losses caused by a problem exceeds the cost of removing the problem - measures will be taken.

 

[Whipsnade]

Apart from ...

Lycanorukke,

I cannot agree with your post MORE STRONGLY.

Factual and succinct, it should be food for thought for any anti-pirate Mugwump.


Regards,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

Required reading

<sigh>

Took out the names & kept the rest

Excellent. Thank you very much

It's my own fault really I suppose. I took Tellon at his word and didn't review the post after he edited it. And I guess I wasn't clear enough. I thought the examples were explicit enough that it was clear I meant NO NAMES OF ANY REAL WORLD RECENT HISTORY. Not shouting there, just trying to clear. And no dancing around the issue with clever "and a certain..." nods and winks.

Then too I only just realized that what I took Tellon to mean by "Navy" was "Imperial Navy of the Imperium" and that "Solmali" was a typo for "Solomani" as in "Enemies of the Imperium". I see now he meant (I guess) a modern "Navy" and the typo was actually referring to modern "Somalia" pirates.

So, since this was obviously my error I won't be adding an infraction for Tellon. I should have caught it sooner and clarified his edit needed more work. Consider this that request. Tellon, please re-edit your post above to comply.

I'll just restate the rule, again, for everyone, as clearly as I can:

No modern politics at all. No real world politics would serve you even better. If you can't make your example without resorting to naming actual participants then simply don't use the example. State everything in game terms and I don't see how anyone can take it personally. And it's likely to be the most helpful and on topic.

No real world religions. At all. Ever.

And while I'm at it there are other topics too numerous to specify that border on or are within the political and/or religious that should be avoided too. Again because they generally cause problems.

It's not that I'm personally averse to the above discussions. I usually quite enjoy them. And as examples I wish they could be allowed where they help. But that's not the point. The board no longer has a place for them and the rules are those topics are out of bounds. And if anyone insists on engaging in them then this board is not the place for you either.

So if I have to be the hard ass I will be. Threads will be sent to The Pit and never seen again, I don't have time to pick through and save the worthy posts or clean up problem posts. Posters crossing the line will be warned, temp-banned, or perma-banned. Not necessarily in that order. And it's a very uncertain line so don't try dancing right up to it lest you stumble and fall on the wrong side of it.

Certain individuals have proven that not everyone can civilly discuss or even read such posts. Examples like those above have led to increasingly heated and decidedly NOT Traveller thread derailments in the past. So, no more.

Clear?