Are Vargr correctly portrayed in Traveller?

[Dagrill]

Hi,

I have been thinking about Vargr and wondering if they are mistreated in Traveller.

Dogs are known for their loyalty and I read a read SF book of my sister's with a boy that had some sort of psychic connection to a wolf with a deep bond of loyalty between them.

So shouldn't Vargr have the most stable society in Traveller? May be with politicians/admirals elected by right of challenge every few year to amke way for fresh blood?

Or am I missing something fundamental?

Regards

David

 

[fusor]

I think you're missing the fact that they're a fictional race in a science fiction game

EDIT: What I mean is that they're wolves who were physically changed and uplifted by magical aliens and dumped on another planet lightyears from Earth and left to evolve for 300,000 years. After all that, why expect them to act like canines we're familiar with on Earth at all?

 

[Dragoner]

IMTU, both the Imperium and the Zhodani manipulate them so they don't get too organized; ala the Romans and Germanic tribes. Same for Aslan, except for Zhodani it is the Solomani.

 

[aramis]

Hi,

I have been thinking about Vargr and wondering if they are mistreated in Traveller.

Dogs are known for their loyalty and I read a read SF book of my sister's with a boy that had some sort of psychic connection to a wolf with a deep bond of loyalty between them.

So shouldn't Vargr have the most stable society in Traveller? May be with politicians/admirals elected by right of challenge every few year to amke way for fresh blood?

Or am I missing something fundamental?

Regards

David

Vargr are not uplifted dogs, but uplifted wolves.
Dogs are not wolves. Wolves have loyalty only to the strong leaders. If an old leader surrenders, he may even be kept around... if he doesn't, he'll be killed or run off.

Dogs have been bred for loyalty; wolves for pack survival. It takes only a few ruthless generations to create dog-like things out of wolves... or foxes, for that matter, but despite the genetic differences being tiny, the behavior driven by those is VERY different.

And the artist on the MGT Vargr module apparently either didn't read the text, ignored the text, or has no idea what a wolf looks like. It's a bad example, and likely to create the misimpression that Vargr are dogs.

 

[kafka47]

Indeed, Vargr should be something that is feared. Even though there are Vargr in the Imperium - for the most part they are from the wrong end of the Starport therefore there ought to be nothing cuddly about them. Even Vargr females should be made more assertive.

 

[rancke]

Indeed, Vargr should be something that is feared. Even though there are Vargr in the Imperium - for the most part they are from the wrong end of the Starport therefore there ought to be nothing cuddly about them. Even Vargr females should be made more assertive.

A lot of the worlds in the coreward Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors have Vargr populations in excess of 5% without having the V0 comment, implying that these Vargr live integrated with their human neighbors rather than in separate enclaves.

I've always assumed that many Imperial Vargr HAVE been "domesticated", although it is highly impolitic to say so out loud.


Hans

 

[kafka47]

A lot of the worlds in the coreward Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors have Vargr populations in excess of 5% without having the V0 comment, implying that these Vargr live integrated with their human neighbors rather than in separate enclaves.

I've always assumed that many Imperial Vargr HAVE been "domesticated", although it is highly impolitic to say so out loud.


Hans

YTUMV, on my worlds these form the bulk of the underclass and the criminal element akin to the Koreans employed by the Yakuza or the Russians in many parts of Western Europe. There legally. However, often doing the dodgy jobs or jobs that nobody wants until they get recruited by the various Vargr criminal packs. And, scratch those packs and do the research and usually you will find a Vilani behind it all.

 

[rancke]

YTUMV, on my worlds these form the bulk of the underclass and the criminal element akin to the Koreans employed by the Yakuza or the Russians in many parts of Western Europe. There legally. However, often doing the dodgy jobs or jobs that nobody wants until they get recruited by the various Vargr criminal packs. And, scratch those packs and do the research and usually you will find a Vilani behind it all.

That's an entirely possible setup, but I think it will vary from world to world. Also, the longer the Vargr have lived there, the bigger the chances that the situation you paint won't be accurate. When the first Vargr become rich enough to move into the middle-class neighborhoods, there's going to be trouble and tribulations; a hundred years later no one will care.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

YTUMV, on my worlds these form the bulk of the underclass and the criminal element akin to the Koreans employed by the Yakuza or the Russians in many parts of Western Europe. There legally. However, often doing the dodgy jobs or jobs that nobody wants until they get recruited by the various Vargr criminal packs. And, scratch those packs and do the research and usually you will find a Vilani behind it all.

IMTU, the Imperium has moved into Vargr space causing and infux of Vargr into the Marches as cheap labor (the Vargr stole my job!) and Humans into Vargr space. Vargr realize they will get the best deal being Imperials vs other options, there could even be a Vargr Guard for the Imperium (like the ancient Byzantine Varangian Guard). Nice mafia ideas, though why Vilani and not Solomani bosses?

 

[aramis]

It takes 3-4 generations to assimilate for humans. Human enclaves in the Extents should be, for almost all intents except initial stats, culturally mostly Vargr...

Likewise, Vargr in the imperium are likely to be mostly highly emotional and culturally pretty Imperialized. Yes, Imperial Vargr should be still more impulsive and easily swayed than humans, but nowhere near as much as Cultural Vargr.

And Vargrized Humans should be more impulsive than their Imperial counterparts, but still more personally loyal and less "leader of the moment" than their Vargr counterparts...

And both Imperialized Vargr and Vargrized Humans are likely to both share a milder form of Vargr cooking....

 

[rancke]

I wrote an adventure for JTAS Online that was set on Extolay (Spinward Marches 1711). According to me (i.e. not canon) "Extolay is a true dual-species society. About 24% of Extolay's population are racial Vargr who have been fully integrated with their Human neighbors for centuries (the world was originally colonized by Vargr). When the Imperium moved into the Marches, Humans settled on Extolay and adopted many of the local customs."

I included a paragraph about refereeing assimilate Vargr:

Assimilated Vargr have all the physical advantages and disadvantages of ethnic Vargr, but many of the typical Vargr mental traits are less pronounced and sometimes completely absent. Scientists disagree on how much these traits are inborn but suppressed by association with Humans, or not inborn and just not learned in the first place. In game terms, the mental and social advantages and disadvantages of ethnic Vargr are common but not mandatory for assimilated Vargr, and taboo traits are uncommon but not forbidden. The comparison between dogs and wolves is highly impolitic, if difficult to avoid. Assimilated Vargr react very poorly to the suggestion that they have been "tamed" by Humans or, even worse, are just "Humans in Vargr suits" -- claims that ethnic Vargr are quick to make. Assimilated and ethnic Vargr react to each other at -2 or worse.​

Make of it what you will. Having only been published in JTAS Online it's not canon. But I think it works. YMMV.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

This is what was in my mind when I posed the question, so we have in effect 'domesticated' vargr (who act and are more loyal than humans) and 'wild' vargr (who are more like the mongoose version)...

Now would they make up a higher than normal percentage of the imperium military in the Marches? (Thinking lower class, minor ethnic group sort of thing).

Regards

David

It takes 3-4 generations to assimilate for humans. Human enclaves in the Extents should be, for almost all intents except initial stats, culturally mostly Vargr...

Likewise, Vargr in the imperium are likely to be mostly highly emotional and culturally pretty Imperialized. Yes, Imperial Vargr should be still more impulsive and easily swayed than humans, but nowhere near as much as Cultural Vargr.

And Vargrized Humans should be more impulsive than their Imperial counterparts, but still more personally loyal and less "leader of the moment" than their Vargr counterparts...

And both Imperialized Vargr and Vargrized Humans are likely to both share a milder form of Vargr cooking....

 

[aramis]

Looking at character generation, if either of the three mod stats are advantaged, then yes, there is likely to be some over-representation, and if any is disadvantaged, some under representation.

Vargr using the Human/Imperial careers:
Imperialized Vargr in Human Careers
Agent _______ - __ Law Enforcement ________ = __ Intelligence ___________ = __ Corporate
Army ________ -- _ Support ________________ -- _ Infantry _______________ - __ Cavalry
Citizen _____ = __ Corporate ______________ - __ Worker _________________ - __ Colonist
Drifter _____ -- _ Bararian _______________ - __ Wanderer _______________ = __ Scavenger
Entertainer _ = __ Artist _________________ = __ Journalist _____________ = __ Performer
Marines _____ -- _ Support ________________ -- _ Star Marine ____________ -- _ Ground Assault
Merchant ____ = __ Merchant Marine ________ + __ Free Trader ____________ = __ Broker
Navy ________ = __ Line/Crew ______________ = __ Engineering/Gunnery ____ + __ Flight
Nobility ____ = __ Administrator __________ = __ Diplomat _______________ = __ Dilettante
Rogue _______ ++ _ Thief __________________ - __ Enforcer _______________ ++ _ Pirate
Scholar _____ - __ Field Researcher _______ = __ Scientist ______________ = __ Physician
Scout _______ - __ Courier ________________ - __ Survey _________________ - __ Exploration

This gives a quick idea for it.

 

[Dagrill]

Thanks this is very helpful

Thank You

Regards

David

 

[kafka47]

IMTU, the Imperium has moved into Vargr space causing and infux of Vargr into the Marches as cheap labor (the Vargr stole my job!) and Humans into Vargr space. Vargr realize they will get the best deal being Imperials vs other options, there could even be a Vargr Guard for the Imperium (like the ancient Byzantine Varangian Guard). Nice mafia ideas, though why Vilani and not Solomani bosses?

Vilani have been in space the longest. It rather makes sense that their criminal enterprises have been cultivated for generations under the veneer of respectability. Plus, the occupation of Vilani lands under the Second Imperium is akin to the French in Scilily. Furthermore, more the Vilani always think in the long term...and long term planning for criminal enterprises provide great shells if you are not affiliated with the Megacorps...

[FONT=arial,helvetica]That's an entirely possible setup, but I think it will vary from world to world. Also, the longer the Vargr have lived there, the bigger the chances that the situation you paint won't be accurate. When the first Vargr become rich enough to move into the middle-class neighborhoods, there's going to be trouble and tribulations; a hundred years later no one will care.[/FONT]

Assuming they are on a world that allows and promulgates mobility. I take Research Station Gamma and Marc's comment about it being a Human-centred universe quite seriously. This radically changes when you move out of the Imperium. The Imperium for me has the Vargr in their place. It may allow one of their number to distinguish themselves but that is only in order to keep the rabble in line.

 

[rancke]

Assuming they are on a world that allows and promulgates mobility.

Yes, of course. Which some worlds will and some worlds won't. I can't think of anything more unlikely than that every Imperial member world will have the same attitudes.

I take Research Station Gamma and Marc's comment about it being a Human-centred universe quite seriously.

What does RSG have to say about this? What is Marc's comment?

A Human-centered Imperium and equal rights for Non-humans are not mutually exclusive (You just need a lot more Humans than Non-humans). The Imperium certainly does not seem to discriminate. At least, I don't recall much, if any, evidence to that effect, and as I said, Vargr are supposedly pretty ubiquitous in the coreward half of Deneb and the Spinward Marches, yet on very few of the worlds do they live in separate communities.


Hans

 

[fiat_knox]

Wolves

This will sound like heresy to some of you. The creator of the Vargr understood wolves about as well as the average man on the street does. I.e. almost clueless.

Back in 1977 people still had an idea of wolves as being these lethal, dangerous packs of ravening monstrous beasts, coming in out from the mountains, killing and rampaging. Like gangs of human biker bandits, basically, but furry and on four legs rather than two wheels.

So the Vargr were born out of that old preconception of the wolf, yielding a race of, frankly, scary werewolves and wolfmen. Boogeymen to scare the kiddies. Relics of old Scandinavian stories - Vargr, or "wolfshead," was originally the term given to human outlaws. Hence, I guess, "werewolf" - a man that thinks like a wolf. Somewhere along the line, lycanthropy, rabies, genetic hypertrichosis and legends of shamanic animal shape shifting got conflated with this term, resulting in our modern "barking-at-the-moon" primal shapeshifting werewolves like George in the BBC TV series Being Human, and the roleplaying game of a certain game company in Georgia.

In the OTU, I wouldn't put it past the Impies to use propaganda to increase that scary reputation to keep the kids in line: "Obey the Emperor and His representatives, and make sure your parents pay their taxes to pay for the Fleet, or the Vargr will come along and gobble you up in your beds!"

Vargr are uplifted wolves. Cool. However, wolves have a complex psychology. They are patrollers, skilled hunters, experts at reading the land and their prey, and everyone in the pack contributes and communicates. Even the pack omega has his role to play.

If they're uplifted wolves, how come none of the books describe that Vargr should by rights have the sharpest sense of smell of any of the Major Races, and sharp hearing, and that they use their tails to express emotion?

Do Vargr have a wolf's vision, seeing things as a canine does, entirely in black and white? If so, why do Vargr need colourful tattoos and markings? Scent markings, yes - a Vargr's presence should theoretically be notable by her scent, and a Vargr disguise kit might take the form of a whole bunch bottles of different kinds of scents, to simulate the smell of another Vargr. Maybe hair dye, to dye fur patches too - but in various shades of grey and black.

From a site on wolves:-

The Grey Wolf is a social animal. Irrespective of the number of members in one group, wolves will stay together. The group is known as the Pack, ruled by a powerful male wolf. Interestingly, they hunt together, play together and even howl together. Overall the pack is strongly hierarchically organized.

Another significant fact is that the wolves are basically color blind, and their pups are born deaf and blind. They begin to see only after 9 to 12 days. With a fast growth rate, these pups' weight will increase nearly 30 times in their first four months.

Wolves may only behave like ravening monsters if they are desperately hungry, are protecting their helpless cubs, or if they are diseased and dying, driven mad by the pain. It's only humans who ravage and rampage for greed, fun and sport.

Another site on wolves

Knowing what we do about wolves today, if the Vargr were being created today I'm sure they'd have a very different story.

 

[fiat_knox]

Here's something to think on.

Imagine trying to smuggle contraband drugs, explosives or chemicals past the Vargr at Customs. They would not need sniffer dogs. Their whole race could identify the contraband by its smell.

Even if a smuggler did not have the contraband on him at the time, if he'd handled it the scent would still be on his hands and clothes, marking him as guilty if the drugs packages or explosives turned up somewhere else, bearing the exact same scent markers.

Vargr speech would be littered with phrases such as "He smells wrong, that 'un," "Do you catch my drift?" and "Do I have to lay down a trail for you?" where we'd say "Do I have to draw you a diagram?"

If they're telling one another they'll call later on the comm, they'd say "I'll howl you later."

And where we'd say "You and whose army?" they would say "Bring it on. And bring your pack, too. It all smells the same to me."

 

[robject]

Dogs have been bred for loyalty; wolves for pack survival. It takes only a few ruthless generations to create dog-like things out of wolves... or foxes, for that matter, but despite the genetic differences being tiny, the behavior driven by those is VERY different.

And, I think, it only takes a few more ruthless generations to create wolf-like things out of dogs. I don't suppose wild dogs are as fearsome as wolves, but they've got similar behaviors.

 

[robject]

A lot of the worlds in the coreward Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors have Vargr populations in excess of 5% without having the V0 comment, implying that these Vargr live integrated with their human neighbors rather than in separate enclaves.

IMTU, the Imperium has moved into Vargr space causing and infux of Vargr into the Marches as cheap labor (the Vargr stole my job!) and Humans into Vargr space. Vargr realize they will get the best deal being Imperials vs other options, there could even be a Vargr Guard for the Imperium (like the ancient Byzantine Varangian Guard). Nice mafia ideas, though why Vilani and not Solomani bosses?

If I recall correctly, aren't there many Imperial worlds in Deneb which are also Vargr worlds? I.E. There already were significant Vargr populations there, and the Imperium assimilated those systems as it pushed spinward?