Aslan

[Ishmael]

That's the general impression one gets. Anything a married female owns belongs to her husband, so to keep company assets in a family, unmarried members of said family (whose possiessions belong the father or brother) remain unmarried. There is perhaps a slight fallacy here... if something 'belongs' to a female's brother, how can it be transferred to her husband when she marries? Still, social concepts do not have to be self-consistent.

I think that social concepts should be just as self-consistent as any other concept within the universe. For this particular example, perhaps there is a custom analogous to a dowry?

You feel that socially codified exclusive access to females would be solely a human concept? I think it sounds like a thoroughly universal concept.

not at all, but it is not universal either as there are creatures on modern-day Terra that totally ignore it. Also, because of the purely human 'baggage' and conceptions surrounding that term, it encourages players to 'play' them as more human. Heck, the concept of what constitutes marriage and the customs that surround it are not universal across human cultures.

What about them?

What does the OTU say about them?...what does the OTU inply about them?
I thought my question was clear.
Apparently, the OTU got so involved with one or two ideas of how Aslan act ( well, male Aslan anyways ) that they seem to have forgotten lots and lots of things that drive a society...mating and food requirements in the Aslan's case.

I still think that if you're taking humans as a baseline, you should go with something in between completely herbiverous and completely carnivorous diet as the baseline, making the Aslans only, say, 3 times (or 3.33 times) as 'demanding' as humans. Humans hunted (and gathered) long before they farmed. A lot of early hominid (hunting) behavior is probably applicable to early Aslan behavior.

Considering that most humans on earth are closer to pure vegetarian than carnivore, I think X3 would make the baseline humans as meat-hungry as a typical American and less like the majority of the world's population. But I do agree x10 is too much for a baseline, so I'll just say I was testing extreme conditions. X5 is better as that'd assume approximately 10% caloric intake through meat which is fairly reasonable from what cursory research I did on that end. Don't forget that Aslan mass more than a human therefore it tips the number closer to the X10 than to the X3 because trophic level changes are based on biomass and not populations.
World Tamer still fails though, most likely because its focused narrowly on the typical crops idea. I feel that Aslan must succeed comfortably at tech 0 or else how would they advance when they're spending ALL time acquiring food?

I'll have to think about your 50% estimate... it seems rather low, all things considered.
It'd cause the operational sex ratio and number of breeding 'pairs' ( where one male might be part of more than one 'pair' ) down to 1:1.5 considerably less than 1:3. It also seems arbitrary for shoehorning it into the existing rules as opposed to what it might be if caused by nature. It'd imply that females can control when they go into 'heat' and that the urge to breed does not affect them. But once I get a model up and running, I'll certainly try those numbers.
btw... lioness's can control when they are in heat to an extent.

 

[rancke]

I think that social concepts should be just as self-consistent as any other concept within the universe. For this particular example, perhaps there is a custom analogous to a dowry?

Social concepts are rarely self-consistent. But obviously the female owns things in her own right (shares in a company, for example). Perhaps it's not that it belongs to her husband, but that she is expected to use it to help her new clan.

not at all, but it is not universal either as there are creatures on modern-day Terra that totally ignore it.

I didn't mean that every creature in the universe used it, I meant it might show up among cultures all over the universe.

Also, because of the purely human 'baggage' and conceptions surrounding that term, it encourages players to 'play' them as more human. Heck, the concept of what constitutes marriage and the customs that surround it are not universal across human cultures.

This is role-playing, you know. Players do need a concept of how to play an alien character that isn't too alien. If an alien becomes too un-human, you're going to have to play him using random die rolls.

What does the OTU say about them?...what does the OTU inply about them?

Very little. There was an adventure somewhere (in Alien Realms IIRC) that involved illicit love and elopement. I'm pretty sure all the implications were thoroughly human.

Apparently, the OTU got so involved with one or two ideas of how Aslan act ( well, male Aslan anyways ) that they seem to have forgotten lots and lots of things that drive a society... mating and food requirements in the Aslan's case.

I'd say that most of what we hear about how Aslans act is really about how upper class Aslans act. It was written by people who had a limited word count and wanted a race it was easy and fun to role-play. How many role-playing rules deal with human mating rituals in any greater detail than what has been written about Aslans? (A few, no doubt, but there are plenty of RPGs that doesn't mention it with word one).

I feel that Aslan must succeed comfortably at tech 0 or else how would they advance when they're spending ALL time acquiring food?

Presumably early Aslans reached the maximum population the range could support. How did humans go from primitive to civilization? You need something to make established territory support more individuals. You need something analogous to argriculture. Animal husbandry?

I'll have to think about your 50% estimate... it seems rather low, all things considered.

It'd cause the operational sex ratio and number of breeding 'pairs' ( where one male might be part of more than one 'pair' ) down to 1:1.5 considerably less than 1:3. It also seems arbitrary for shoehorning it into the existing rules as opposed to what it might be if caused by nature.

It is shoehorned into the existing setting (not rules -- IMO rules reflect "reality" (sometimes inadequately), but they don't define it). I'm starting with the end result and trying to see how they got that way, as opposed to starting with original conditions and applying rules to see how that works out.

It'd imply that females can control when they go into 'heat' and that the urge to breed does not affect them. But once I get a model up and running, I'll certainly try those numbers.

btw... lioness's can control when they are in heat to an extent.

You're dealing with a minimum of three sets of imperatives. The biological imperatives bred into the proto-Aslans, the social imperatives of the customs that evolved while primitive Aslans were frolicking on the plains of Tafohti and trying to figure out how to bring down beemahs (Big Meat Animals ), and the social imperatives of the customs that evolved as the Aslans transformed from pack hunters on the plains to civilized citizens of industrilized clans.

BTW, given that some humans practice celibacy, I don't give much for the notion of uncontrollable biological imperatives. I don't see why unmarried females can't just sublimate their urge to breed.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

I'll re-read S&A to see what I can come up with. I do know there is at least one Aslan "megacorp" who demands that their female executives pledge not to "marry".

Thanks...
I have S&A ( its one of only 3 sources I still own that cover the Aslan..mt ref's comp and FASA Aslan merc ships are the others )
I haven't been able to glean much from it on this. This is part of what infuriates me about Trav aliens... lack of info about important things that drive culture and behavioral traits; just one or two stereotypical ones which, in the case of the Aslan, seem to cover only a quarter of the pop.

I totally agree that the terms, 'married' and 'unmarried', carry far too much baggage to be useful here. The ideals that marriage invokes in most people that I know would not fit my vision of the Aslan family at all. And I feel strongly that those terms encourage the play of Aslan to follow human moral codes concerning sex and family when they might not be true to the alien culture. Not a big deal really, but one that I think would make the Aslan more interesting if it were different from human.
I'll probably end up going with promiscuity within the family group, but for any member to go outside the family group for mating purposes is taboo and grounds for a duel covering a crime of honor. I've already touched upon how I'd trace ancestry; through the female with the lead male as the defacto father even if it was his brother/cousin that is the actual sire. In lions, the males are usually from the same cohort and related....either brothers or cousins.

Concerns about cheating, cuckolds, and even female Aslan in comfortable shoes also presumes a sex drive very similar to that of Homo sapiens. This might not be the case with the Aslan. I'm not suggesting that the Aslan have "seasons", "pon farr", or no interest in sex, but I am suggesting that we and our nearest cousins the bonobos might not be the best models for alien sex drives. Quite frankly, humans and bonobos would get busy with a woodpile if there was a chance of a snake being in it.

I'm not certain i agree with that first statement. I don't think it presumes a human sex drive so much as it presumes human attitudes towards those subjects...specifically American attitudes towards those subjects. Cheating and cuckolding I won't be using considering how I may use the family structure. I suppose i was "fishing" when I mentioned it.The 'comfortable shoes' comment is one that I feel is more of a biased human sort of comment and incomprehensible to Aslan females; they are just comfortable showing affections although it is non-sexual for them.

I have no problem with using humans as a model for sex drive.
Males are aggressive, which in many animals is a signal of a strong sex drive.
Multiple sex partners are common...
Its been stated that it was considered desirable to amass a sizable harem.
Besides, the warrior aspect+maintaining propriety+affectionate females+strong lusts might make for interesting contrasts and is NOT what the other races are like.
Another thing to think about...
Exactly how do the males and females attract each other?
Unattached individuals will be trying to enhance those desirable characteristics to attract a mate. It'd be a strong motivation for how an Aslan character/npc should act.

WTH is definitely human-centric and it models food production with an eye towards discrete "rations" instead of whatever actually makes up those rations. I know it mentions different food animals by size, but the linkage between that and the "rations" they result in is rather simplistic.

Definitely human-centric..garden-world-centric and plow+seed+crop-centric. But I had to try because it was easy to check a simple set of numbers out. I have ideas on how to handle this, but not OTU and with ideas borrowed from several sources.
Something to work on AFTER I get some sort of population model running.

 

[Whipsnade]

I'll probably end up going with promiscuity within the family group...

Ish,

I'll have to read your explanation for going that way then. We see male lions and male barn cats killing off kits other than their own when they take over the pride or clutter. I'm also thinking that Aslan males would be at least as interested in ensuring that their children are really their children, so promiscuity within the family group is going to play merry hell with that.

The 'comfortable shoes' comment is one that I feel is more of a biased human sort of comment and incomprehensible to Aslan females; they are just comfortable showing affections although it is non-sexual for them.

I cannot agree with that more strongly.

The snickering "lesbian Aslan" comments the Hobby has been making for decades now is nothing more than human bias. For humans affection = sex and for the Aslan affection =/= sex.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Ishmael]

This is role-playing, you know. Players do need a concept of how to play an alien character that isn't too alien. If an alien becomes too un-human, you're going to have to play him using random die rolls.

I guess there will always be someone who will say "humans in rubber suits" and others who say " too wierd", eh?
Personally, I think all rpg aliens must be humans-n-rubber suits to some degree to be playable at all. Thats why I don't put too much stock in that argument concerning what the alien culture is based on.

I know word counts put a huge limit on how much can be written, so most things, regardless of actual importance, are barely mentioned. Almost no RPG's discuss mating and rituals for humans because we already know them pretty much ( for the culture we each grew up in, anyways ).
Unfortunate that sex is glossed over since mating and the rituals surrounding it are vital for determining a being's behavior

World tamer focuses on traditional 'crops' which are not what Aslan consumed. I think the model that will work assumes that the herds migrate through the land Aslan 'farmers' work but their 'crop' grows and feeds itself, etc on a far larger land area. Thus Aslan 'farmers should be able to harvest more even though the much larger land use should be taken into account. Models for optimum sustainable yield used by fisheries should be able to work.
Compare taking water from a pond and taking water from a creek.

It is shoehorned into the existing setting (not rules -- IMO rules reflect "reality" (sometimes inadequately), but they don't define it). I'm starting with the end result and trying to see how they got that way, as opposed to starting with original conditions and applying rules to see how that works out.

lol... we're approaching the problem from different ends
You're starting from the end result and working back to see how things were.
I'm starting from the initial model and seeing what can develop based on population ecology, etc.
You know we probably won't meet at the same place in the middle, right?

BTW, given that some humans practice celibacy, I don't give much for the notion of uncontrollable biological imperatives. I don't see why unmarried females can't just sublimate their urge to breed.

I don't give much for the notion of uncontrolled biological imperatives either ( not even the drive for territory )
And its not the females' sex drive I'd be worried about.... there sure are an awful lot of 'unmarried' aggressive males out there......

 

[Whipsnade]

.... there sure are an awful lot of 'unmarried' aggressive males out there......

Ish,

Yeah, and they're called ihatei.

You've put your finger on something that I've been mulling over for decades, for at least as long ago as when I first read about the Aslan ihatei seizing the Trojan Reach and threatening the Marches.

We know that the ihatei are sent off with the clan's hand-me-downs; obsolescent ships and equipment, but it seems to me that they also have another huge handicap; a relative lack of females.

Consider these quotes from CT's AM:1:

These males are capable of operating most forms of high-tech equipment by rote as black boxes, but their expertise is limited to bravery, tactical skill, and button-pushing. Tasks which require more than this must be entrusted to males of very low social level or to females. Females of high social level fill all staff, operations, supply, and intelligence positions, and handle the administration of the unit. This example holds true for most aspects of Aslan society. Page 7

Male officers are pilots, gunners, and leaders; female officers are navigators, engineers, and staff advisors... Page 9

Males in the Military service are fighters or combatants; females are support personnel. Male officers are commanders and leaders; female officers serve as staff and advisors. Page 9

Scientists: Female only... Page 9

Belters: Female only... Page 9

Female skills include Administration, Bribery, Broker, Computer, Electronics, Engineering, Forgery, Gravities, Howitzer, Jack of all Trades, Mass Driver, Mechanical, Medical, Multiple Rocket Launcher, Navigation, Steward, Streetwise, and Trader. Page 11

Females don't have the same land hunger that males do, either that or they're allowed to psychologically and culturally channel that hunger into business and other activities. Females also aren't under any particular pressure to "marry", they can stay "single" without any stigma that's been mentioned. This means they're not all going to follow their ihatei husbands into an ihatei fleet and they're not going to volunteer for an ihatei fleet in the same percentages that males do. They have other ways to validate their existence within the Aslan culture, ways that are closed to males.

This relative lack of females is going to play havoc with the abilities of any ihatei fleet.

Imagine an ihatei military force, chock full of second sons, loaded aboard obsolete ships, carrying secondhand weapons, and lacking it's full complement of navigators, engineers, computer operators, maintenance crews, and dozens of other professions including DOCTORS for Finagle's sake. Sure, they can bring aboard lower class males to make up the difference, but how well are those lower class males going to perform the duties that the rest of the fleet despises? How well are those lower class males going to work when the rest of the fleet insists on treating them as if they were female?

So, what sort of a chance are the ihatei going to have against an organized resistance? Slim or none? Is it any wonder why S&A explicitly mentions that clans deep in the Heirate are having trouble even sending out ihatei fleets? Or that ihatei fleets aren't launched every year or even every decade? Even the most honor blind ko must know in his heart that an ihatei fleet is nothing but slow death in 999 cases out of a thousand.

We've been worried about having the Aslan practice infanticide, but what you can call the ihatei fleets except delayed infanticide?

I brought this up during an "Aslan in the Rebelllion" thread on the TML years ago but the thread morphed away too quickly afterward and the idea was ignored. Hopefully it's something we can address during your project.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

We know that the ihatei are sent off with the clan's hand-me-downs; obsolescent ships and equipment, but it seems to me that they also have another huge handicap; a relative lack of females.

There's no evidence that ihatei fleets don't have an adequate supply of females. On the contrary, I'd say those quotes you give show that any fleet without females would be unable to function. Not to mention that the purpose of many ihatei fleets is to establish a functional colony. How can they do that without bringing along plenty of female colonists?

I say 'many' instead of 'all' because the all-males-except-for-the-females-needed-to-run-the-ships expeditions are a possible alternate way to compose a fleet. However, such a fleet is reduced to two options: Finding an Aslan society weak enough to be conquered by assault and finding an Aslan society with expansion room and swearing fealthy to the local clan chief/lord. But that rules out the option that we're told is the favorite one: To find some unoccupied land and squat.

Females don't have the same land hunger that males do, either that or they're allowed to psychologically and culturally channel that hunger into business and other activities. Females also aren't under any particular pressure to "marry", they can stay "single" without any stigma that's been mentioned.

But some females engage in business in order to become more attractive marriage partners. They have their own social urges.

This means they're not all going to follow their ihatei husbands into an ihatei fleet and they're not going to volunteer for an ihatei fleet in the same percentages that males do. They have other ways to validate their existence within the Aslan culture, ways that are closed to males.

Those who are married will follow their husbands or face strong social condemnation. Others will join in order to become married to a landholding (i.e. upper-class) male instead of a lower class sad sack ().

This relative lack of females is going to play havoc with the abilities of any ihatei fleet.

I've always thought that the necessity of carrying along enough females for a viable society would play havoc with the fleet's fighting ability.

Imagine an ihatei military force, chock full of second sons, loaded aboard obsolete ships, carrying secondhand weapons, and lacking it's full complement of navigators, engineers, computer operators, maintenance crews, and dozens of other professions including DOCTORS for Finagle's sake.

Yes, imagine that. Now imagine the clan lord who finances such a venture. How is he going to show up compared to a clan lord who makes sure the expedition he outfits has the necessary females? Honor would demand that he did it properly. And if a favorite son is in charge of the expedition, family feelings will demand he give the lad a fair chance to make good. And if favorite sons of his chief retainers are going along, simple survival instincts would urge the same.

Sure, they can bring aboard lower class males to make up the difference, but how well are those lower class males going to perform the duties that the rest of the fleet despises? How well are those lower class males going to work when the rest of the fleet insists on treating them as if they were female?

Remember that no clan can afford to send away more than a small fraction of its population. A slot in a typical expedition will cost in the neighborhood of half a megacredit to outfit (that's after accounting for the ships costing 20% of new price but before paying for 1.5 dT of colony equipment per colonist). There are going to be plenty of middle and low class females who wants to improve their status to go along. The Loaktarl 'dominated four subsectors'. I'd say that to dominate four subsectors, a clan would need to be quite large, wouldn't you? Yet when they outfit a fleet for the first time in over a generation, it consists of only 20,000 members.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

There's no evidence that ihatei fleets don't have an adequate supply of females.

Hans,

This is the IMTU forum, remember?

We're examining what we've been told about the basics of Aslan behavior and are trying to craft a plausible society from that.

Not to mention that the purpose of many ihatei fleets is to establish a functional colony. How can they do that without bringing along plenty of female colonists?

By sending home for females or attracting local "spares" once you succeed.

But some females engage in business in order to become more attractive marriage partners. They have their own social urges.

And one of those social urges is to become voluntary spinsters rather than give control of their business interests to future husbands and future sons.

Those who are married will follow their husbands or face strong social condemnation.

When I wrote about not following ihatei husbands I was referring to the fact that they wouldn't be married to ihatei in the first place. They won't be following ihatei husbands because they do not have [ihatei husbands.

Others will join in order to become married to a landholding (i.e. upper-class) male...

Not a landholding upper-class male, an upper-class male who is hoping to seize land. There's a very big difference. The sad sack living on a K-prime world may look quite well in contrast to the pride leader squatting on a disputed planetoid.

I've always thought that the necessity of carrying along enough females for a viable society would play havoc with the fleet's fighting ability.

Exactly. Bringing along what passes for non-combatants in Aslan society and guarding their transports would greatly hamper a fleet trying to seize land someplace, wouldn't it? So an ihatei fleet can have too many females and not enough females at the same time. Bit of a cleft stick, don't you think?

Yes, imagine that. Now imagine the clan lord who finances such a venture. How is he going to show up compared to a clan lord who makes sure the expedition he outfits has the necessary females? Honor would demand that he did it properly.

Honor only demand that he try. If the fleet's chances are seen as slim, how many will volunteer? How can the ko entice more to step forward? Money? Threats? Appeals to honor? All of those can be seen as dishonorable in themselves.

And if a favorite son...

The favorite son inherits.

Remember that no clan can afford to send away more than a small fraction of its population.

Agreed, it's one of the reasons why the Aslan incursions in the Rebellion period are nonsense.

There are going to be plenty of middle and low class females who wants to improve their status to go along.

Plenty willing to gamble on a better life? Perhaps. Plenty with the skills and experience the fleet will need? Unlikely. The females with those attributes are already doing well at home, why risk it all with a rag tag bunch of ihatei flying hand-me-downs?

The Loaktarl 'dominated four subsectors'. I'd say that to dominate four subsectors, a clan would need to be quite large, wouldn't you?

I'd say they'd be large and rich.

Yet when they outfit a fleet for the first time in over a generation, it consists of only 20,000 members.

Ask yourself this, did the first Loaktarl ihatei fleet in a generation only consist of 20,000 members because the clan couldn't find enough money or because they couldn't find enough volunteers?

At 0.5MCr per Toon, the price sticker for that ihatei fleet is 10,000MCr or just about 500MCr less than a single obsolescent Weakhto-class cruiser. Tell me, why was it so hard for a clan that "dominated four subsectors" to scrape up the price of a single elderly cruiser once in a generation?

Something else is at work here.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

This is the IMTU forum, remember?

It seems to me that you're using that justification to a situation where it does not apply.

We're examining what we've been told about the basics of Aslan behavior and are trying to craft a plausible society from that.

You didn't say "Let's assume that ihatei fleets don't have enough females", you said (in effect) "it's a well-known and inescapable canonical fact that ihatei fleets don't have enough females". Or so I read your statement.

Not to mention that the purpose of many ihatei fleets is to establish a functional colony. How can they do that without bringing along plenty of female colonists?

By sending home for females or attracting local "spares" once you succeed.

Not practical when doing so requires a three year round trip.

Those who are married will follow their husbands or face strong social condemnation.

When I wrote about not following ihatei husbands I was referring to the fact that they wouldn't be married to ihatei in the first place. They won't be following ihatei husbands because they do not have ihatei husbands.

Why wouldn't they be? There's a whole spectrum of social conditions from being the second son of a clan chief (surely important enough to have two or even three wives) down to being an unmarried, low-class electrician. Somewhere along that spectrum you'll find married males with adequate warrior skills married to females with adequate female skills. Some married females may even be skilled enough to get their husband a spot in the fleet that he wouldn't be able to gain on his own..

Others will join in order to become married to a landholding (i.e. upper-class) male...

Not a landholding upper-class male, an upper-class male who is hoping to seize land. There's a very big difference. The sad sack living on a K-prime world may look quite well in contrast to the pride leader squatting on a disputed planetoid.

No doubt. You've no basis for assuming that this is the case for everyone, though. Presumably Aslan personalities are as diverse as human personalities.

Bringing along what passes for non-combatants in Aslan society and guarding their transports would greatly hamper a fleet trying to seize land someplace, wouldn't it? So an ihatei fleet can have too many females and not enough females at the same time. Bit of a cleft stick, don't you think?

A fleet with 2000 warriors out of 10,000 has different options than a fleet with 10,000 warriors out of 10,000, sure. But I don't think the 10,000 warriors is the optimum option. I especially don't think it's a given.

Yes, imagine that. Now imagine the clan lord who finances such a venture. How is he going to show up compared to a clan lord who makes sure the expedition he outfits has the necessary females? Honor would demand that he did it properly.

Honor only demand that he try. If the fleet's chances are seen as slim, how many will volunteer? How can the ko entice more to step forward? Money? Threats? Appeals to honor? All of those can be seen as dishonorable in themselves.

He could ask nicely. He is the ko, after all. And wahat makes you think an all-male expedition has a better chance of success than a balanced one? A fleet will need some warriors to secure the ground, but surely it is its ships that'll give it its real firepower?

The favorite son inherits.

No, the first son inherits.

There are going to be plenty of middle and low class females who wants to improve their status to go along.

Plenty willing to gamble on a better life? Perhaps. Plenty with the skills and experience the fleet will need? Unlikely. The females with those attributes are already doing well at home, why risk it all with a rag tag bunch of ihatei flying hand-me-downs?

Because out of a population of billions of females, it should be possible to find some who're competent, yet dissatisfied with their lot. Why is that so unlikely?

Ask yourself this, did the first Loaktarl ihatei fleet in a generation only consist of 20,000 members because the clan couldn't find enough money or because they couldn't find enough volunteers?

Money, of course. Every ihatei fleet a clan lord outfits is money he's expending for no tangible gain.

At 0.5MCr per Toon, the price sticker for that ihatei fleet is 10,000MCr or just about 500MCr less than a single obsolescent Weakhto-class cruiser. Tell me, why was it so hard for a clan that "dominated four subsectors" to scrape up the price of a single elderly cruiser once in a generation?

Something else is at work here.

Certainly there is something else at work here. IMO, canon sources only talk about one kind of ihatei "dissemination", the rarest of the various types. Ihatei logically come in three varieties. There are the ones who board a regular clan transport to a neighboring world which still has some underdeveloped land and sign up with a local sub-chief. There are the ones who get loaded onto a clan transport by the clan lord and transported to a nearby world where the lord has just acquired some new holdings and need loyal clan members to secure his rule. And there are the ones who get aboard a bunch of ships and fly far off into the distance, to a place so far from the homeworld that the lord probably won't ever see those ships again.

The third kind is the kind we hear all those stories about. They're probably quite rare, but it's the fun kind, the glamorous kind, the kind Imperials usually encounter, so that's the kind we hear about.

Let me try to put it another way. I believe that your average Aslan clan lord's priorities are as follows:

1) Get more land close to his own holdings. There are three reasons for that: a) It is cheaper and faster to ferry ihatei to worlds close by than to worlds dozens of parsecs away; b) Once the new lands are under control, they furnish the clan lord with more taxes which translates into more power and greater defensive ability; and c) If he is attacked by surprise while he is trying to conquer a world close by, he can get his forces back in time to do some good. Hopefully.

2) Get more land within practical trading distance of his chief holdings. It becomes slower and more expensive to ferry ihatei there, but it'll still be far quicker and cheaper than sending them a across the Great Rift and into the Imperium. Any forces stationed there are unable to support the forces stationed at home, but at least he'll still get some revenue from the colony. And while there's always the risk that his vassal there will rebel against him, at least his own forces are close enough to provide some deterrence.

3) Equip a bunch of ihatei with ships and send them off into the wild blue yonder where any colony they establish will be too far away to provide any real benefits for him.

In short, a clan lord will require serious additional reasons (personal or political) to even contemplate outfitting a "Type 3" ihatei expedition.

Edit: BTW, the cost of a single cruiser is the money to maintain ten cruisers.



Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

It seems to me that you're using that justification to a situation where it does not apply.

Hans,

Actually, no. I'm keeping the "No preconceptions, what can the basics lead us to?" idea rather firmly in mind in all of this.

You didn't say "Let's assume that ihatei fleets don't have enough females", you said (in effect) "it's a well-known and inescapable canonical fact that ihatei fleets don't have enough females". Or so I read your statement.

Not exactly, more like Basic canonical facts can also plausibly support the premise that ihatei may have a relative lack of females..

Not practical when doing so requires a three year round trip.

That's quite a preconception. Does every ihatei fleet cross the Great Rift? Does every ihatei fleet begin rimward of the Great Rift? Does every ihatei fleet cross sectors? Even canon suggests that none of those are always the case.

Why wouldn't they be?

Because female Aslan don't have to marry if they don't want to. As I wrote, they're allowed to psychologically and culturally channel their desires into business and other activities.

There's a whole spectrum of social conditions...

Yes, there is a whole spectrum and that's the point. You can come up with 100 female Aslan who want to go and have reasons to go and I can come with 100 female Aslan who don't want to go and have no reason to go. What I'm trying to point out here is that departing with an ihatei fleet is primarily a choice and, while married men and sons can make that choice for wives and mothers, we've been explicitly told that Aslan females can opt out of that male control by remaining single and without stigma.

There's a choice at work and I think it helps limit how often clans can launch ihatei fleets as much as money or any other factor does.

No doubt. You've no basis for assuming that this is the case for everyone, though. Presumably Aslan personalities are as diverse as human personalities.

Again, I'm not presuming everyone because their personalities are diverse. What I'm suggesting is that when 100 males announce they're going off "ihatei-ing", 300 females don't automatically show up and leave with them. They're Aslan, not K'Kree.

A fleet with 2000 warriors out of 10,000 has different options than a fleet with 10,000 warriors out of 10,000, sure. But I don't think the 10,000 warriors is the optimum option. I especially don't think it's a given.

I don't think it's a give either, which is why I repeatedly wrote "relative lack of females" and not "wholly lacking in females".

He could ask nicely.

And they could just as nicely refuse. You and I discussed situational ethics in the Aslan honor system with Ish just this last week and we both discussed it at length for that "Aslan Avengers" adventure you were writing last year. The ko can ask, he can even order, but if he pushes too hard he loses "face".

And wahat makes you think an all-male expedition has a better chance of success than a balanced one?

I don't and I didn't write that I did. I think an all military expedition has a better chance of succeeding and an ihatei fleet can quickly become an all military expedition by finding someplace quiet to park their transports for a month or two.

I'm also suggesting that an ihatei fleet may not have the optimum number of females or female skills that it requires. Not no females or female skills, just a deficit in numbers, experience, competence, or all three.

No, the first son inherits.

Situational ethics again. The Aslan aren't wind-up toys clattering around driven only by their honor code. They've passions too and we both know they'll bend that code to the breaking point and beyond if they feel there's a need. Clan politics means that the first son could easily be supplanted by the favorite son or the more competent son.

The favorite son, or the favorite enough not to buck the system son inherits. Birth order can go hang if the need arises.

Because out of a population of billions of females, it should be possible to find some who're competent, yet dissatisfied with their lot. Why is that so unlikely?

Not unlikely, you're taking it to extremes again. "Relative lack", not "none". And then there's competence and skills. All things being equal, who will be more dissatisfied with their lot and desire to do better? The fully skilled fully competent who will already have a place or the lesser skilled, lesser competent who has not been able to find a position they feel they deserve.

Every ihatei fleet a clan lord outfits is money he's expending for no tangible gain.

Except for the prestige received for fulfilling his parental duty you mentioned earlier.

IMO, canon sources only talk about one kind of ihatei "dissemination", the rarest of the various types.

No. Canon only talks about the "wild blue yonder" type, not because they make the most noise, but because that is what the ihatei actually are. The other "types" you listed are merely colonists. They go to places the ko already owns and receive lands and positions that are the ko's to grant. The ihatei seize new lands, hence the other term for them aorlakht

The word ihatei may come from the Trokh for "second son" but it means more than that. Words are always slippery like that and that is why we always need to look at actions rather than labels.

The third kind is the kind we hear all those stories about.

Because the others are colonists, not ihatei.

Let me try to put it another way. I believe that your average Aslan clan lord's priorities are as follows: (snip)

Yes, that all makes sense economically, militarily, and politically. And the ihatei are important in all three cases because land is being seized. However, in the first two cases after the new holdings are seized, the ihatei get set up as new aorlkaht and colonists are dispatched.

In the third case the ihatei need to bring colonists with them and that's where I believe the problems begin.

In short, a clan lord will require serious additional reasons (personal or political) to even contemplate outfitting a "Type 3" ihatei expedition.

And yet they can do so for less than the cost of a single obsolescent Weakhto-class cruiser. So, why did it take a generation for the Loaktarl to dispatch a single ihatei fleet across the Rift?

Too many better targets closer to home? Certainly.
Too much land already acquired but not sufficiently populated? Certainly.
Money issues? Maybe.
A lack of volunteers to follow several young hotheads on a one-way mission across the Rift and far from clan support with a marginal chance of success?

What do you think?


Regards,
Bill

P.S.

Edit: BTW, the cost of a single cruiser is the money to maintain ten cruisers.

So? You quoted the 0.5MCr per Toon, so the Loaktarl expedition cost less than a single cruiser, maintenance ten for 1 year, or 1 for ten years. Seeing as the Weakhto-class is obsolete the clan better not be maintaining them at all. They should be stuffing them full of ihatei and aiming them across the Rift instead. That gets rid off the cruisers, their maintenance expenses, and the ihatei.

 

[Zparkz]

As I see it type 3 ihatei would be sent off to let off internal steam when the demand of young males demand a cut in land which already are at its limit. Spending a few hundred millions in a fleet by sending off unruly sons and daughters may be better than spending billions in either civil war and/or social problems are probably a better solution.

Second, several clans may cooperate to do this as the Aslan society lets off steam by sending their landless young to carve out their own future. I don't find it strange that a large percentage of a population emigrates. Bteween 1840 and 1920 more than 800 000 people emigrated from Norway to the US. Which at that time was a significant portion of the Norwwegian population. Something close to 30% in total.

 

[rancke]

Does every ihatei fleet cross the Great Rift? Does every ihatei fleet begin rimward of the Great Rift? Does every ihatei fleet cross sectors? Even canon suggests that none of those are always the case.

No, but the ihatei fleets that we have evidence about do go far, far away. The ones that start out months away from their final destination are different and so are the ones that start out weeks away. They are, in fact (well... in my opinion ), Type 2 and Type 1 respectively. A clan lord doesn't need to furnish his ihatei with transports and escorts and wave goodbye to them if they're heading for somewhere within reasonable distance; he can just load them onto his own transports and escort them with his own ships.

Because female Aslan don't have to marry if they don't want to. As I wrote, they're allowed to psychologically and culturally channel their desires into business and other activities.

And no doubt there are some that do so. But there's no basis to suppose that all of them do.

Yes, there is a whole spectrum and that's the point. You can come up with 100 female Aslan who want to go and have reasons to go and I can come with 100 female Aslan who don't want to go and have no reason to go.

Yes, but in order to furnish an ihatei fleet with females, I just need to come up with enough that do. To deny a fleet enough females, you have to postulate that there are none who wants to go.

What I'm trying to point out here is that departing with an ihatei fleet is primarily a choice and, while married men and sons can make that choice for wives and mothers, we've been explicitly told that Aslan females can opt out of that male control by remaining single and without stigma.

You have an explicit quote to the effect that all or a large proportion of unmarried females are not as strongly linked to their fathers and brothers as married females are to their husbands? Could you provide a referece or a quote? 'Cause I sure don't remember any such statements.

In any case, why wouldn't some successful unmarried females want to use their independently gained wealth to attract a good husband?

Again, I'm not presuming everyone because their personalities are diverse. What I'm suggesting is that when 100 males announce they're going off "ihatei-ing", 300 females don't automatically show up and leave with them.

No, I imagine the hiring process is a bit more complicated than that. For that matter, I don't insist that an expedition needs a full three females per male. It's quite likely that the numbers are skewed a bit. But I do think there'll be enough female colonists to ensure that a colony will be viable.

He could ask nicely.

And they could just as nicely refuse.

Can they? That's an assumption, and a very iffy one, IMO. At the risk of 'humanizing' the Aslans, everything we've heard about them leads me to believe that they are strongly authoritative. If the clan ko (or his wife) "asks" someone to do something, I think they'll think long and hard before they refuse.

Always assuming there would be a need to "ask". I don't think there will.

Situational ethics again. The Aslan aren't wind-up toys clattering around driven only by their honor code. They've passions too and we both know they'll bend that code to the breaking point and beyond if they feel there's a need. Clan politics means that the first son could easily be supplanted by the favorite son or the more competent son.

The favorite son, or the favorite enough not to buck the system son inherits. Birth order can go hang if the need arises.

It seems to me that you're arguing for the extremes every time. Yes, if the need is extreme enough, no doubt a clan lord will manipulate events to get rid of a first son who'd be a disaster for the clan. But one very noticable effect of 'situational honor' we've seen is that it's unthinkable to betray your lord -- unless you can think of a good excuse. I can't think of a better excuse than the lord openly setting aside his first son in defiance of Fteir. Situational honor cuts both ways.

Not unlikely, you're taking it to extremes again. "Relative lack", not "none". And then there's competence and skills. All things being equal, who will be more dissatisfied with their lot and desire to do better? The fully skilled fully competent who will already have a place or the lesser skilled, lesser competent who has not been able to find a position they feel they deserve.

<Shrug>. Some humans are dissatisfied with their lot even if they have much. Others are satisfied with little. Why should Aslans be any different? They can be, of course, but there's no evidence to suggest that they are. And if you establish that they are, I think you're opening up a huge can of worms.

Except for the prestige received for fulfilling his parental duty you mentioned earlier.

That's going to be a big comfort when his neighbors take his lands away from him because he lacked sufficient ships to deter them.

No. Canon only talks about the "wild blue yonder" type, not because they make the most noise, but because that is what the ihatei actually are.

Ihatei are landless ones who're looking for land. That's what define them. They can be third sons of nobles or first sons of middle and lower class Aslans. And they can be looking for land next door or land scores of parsecs away.

The other "types" you listed are merely colonists. They go to places the ko already owns and receive lands and positions that are the ko's to grant. The ihatei seize new lands, hence the other term for them aorlakht.

The word ihatei may come from the Trokh for "second son" but it means more than that. Words are always slippery like that and that is why we always need to look at actions rather than labels.

I submit that the slipperiness here could just as easily be your interpretation.

Because the others are colonists, not ihatei.

Sez you.

Yes, that all makes sense economically, militarily, and politically. And the ihatei are important in all three cases because land is being seized. However, in the first two cases after the new holdings are seized, the ihatei get set up as new aorlkaht and colonists are dispatched.

Why in the world would a clan lord set up an ihatei fleet to colonize underutilized land or recently conquered land? No offense, Bill, but I think that's a supremely unlikely notion.

And yet they can do so for less than the cost of a single obsolescent Weakhto-class cruiser. So, why did it take a generation for the Loaktarl to dispatch a single ihatei fleet across the Rift?

Because outfitting an Ihatei fleet costs money right here and now. Those cruisers and transports have been employed on clan business for 30 years (or whatever) and still have a few useful years in them. They're obsolescent, not obsolete. Sending them off means buying new ones NOW, not next year. and it's money the clan lord can put to better use elsewhere. Anything constructive the clan lord uses that money for is a better use than the equivalent of flushing it into empty space. Unless, of course, there are political gains. Intangibles of one kind and another. In the case of the Loarktarl, obviously such considerations had not been uppermost for a generation.

Too many better targets closer to home? Certainly.
Too much land already acquired but not sufficiently populated? Certainly.
Money issues? Maybe.
A lack of volunteers to follow several young hotheads on a one-way mission across the Rift and far from clan support with a marginal chance of success?

What do you think?

Any of the above. Except the lack of volunteers.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Ish & Hans,

I'm going to be crawling through the innards of a chemical plant in western Massachusetts between my Saturday 20 June and most likely the middle of next week.

I'll return to this thread after that time when I can give it the thought and attention it requires.

Enjoy your weekend.


Regards,
Bill

 

[abomination]

FWIW I'd go for a social answer rather than a biological one.

Something like the Spartans leaving babies on the hillside to see if they're strong enough to become soldiers?

And if you went continued down the Spartan route, sending them to military acadamies at a young age. If they don't gradate from which they aren't considered Aslan, and become of a subserient sub-class.

That should "weed out" 2/3rds

 

[Gadrin]

This relative lack of females is going to play havoc with the abilities of any ihatei fleet.

Regards,
Bill

One thing that I had come up after looking over Reaver's Deep:

How do the Aslans feel about Allies and Mercenaries ?

I think it's safe to say not every member of the 3rd Imperium's fleet
is born/bred from a single race

When reading over the Reaver's Deep material I have (P Sanders)
plus the on-line Library Data site I found, was that right next door
to the Hierate's Borders is the

http://librarydata.jtas.net

Islaiat Dominate

   The Islaiat Dominate is controlled by a minor race native to
   Islaiat (Reavers' Deep 0221). They gained jump drive from the
   Aslan early in the Hierate expansion and quickly founded their
   own empire, which extends into Hryaroaa subsector and Ehilao and
   Tulrakh subsectors of Ealiyasiyw sector.

So I'd have to think non-Aslan could play a role in the Hierate's
shape and membership of various Ihatei groups (whether they
be military or not, male roles or not).

I never saw any writeups on the Islaiat themselves to know anything
about them, so I treated them as yet another Minor Human Race
in the TU.

In the GURPS Traveller writeup of the Aslan, it mentions them (the Aslan) as not
having a cultural identity, so I can see where not all clans are
mirror images of the others. I haven't read the entire CT/AM version yet.

I think that many Islaiats would find their way into Ihatei business
(in some shape/form) and I have no doubt that the Aslan would
have their own equivalent of a "headhunter" (talent scout) and
would be looking to fill holes/roles and spots in various areas by
signing up other races who they perceive as useful.

>

 

[Gadrin]

This relative lack of females is going to play havoc with the abilities of any ihatei fleet.

Regards,
Bill

One thing that I had come up after looking over Reaver's Deep:

How do the Aslans feel about Allies and Mercenaries ?

When reading over the Reaver's Deep material I have (P Sanders)
plus the on-line Library Data site I found, was that right next door
to the Hierate's Borders is the

Islaiat Dominate

   The Islaiat Dominate is controlled by a minor race native to
   Islaiat (Reavers' Deep 0221). They gained jump drive from the
   Aslan early in the Hierate expansion and quickly founded their
   own empire, which extends into Hryaroaa subsector and Ehilao and
   Tulrakh subsectors of Ealiyasiyw sector.

So I'd have to think non-Aslan could play a role in the Hierate's
shape and membership of various Ihatei groups (whether they
be military or not, male roles or not.

I never saw any writeups on the Islaiat themselves to know anything
about them, so I treated them as yet another Minor Human Race
in the TU.

In the GURPS Traveller writeup of the Aslan, it mentions them (the Aslan) as not
having...(see below), so I can see where not all clans are
mirror images of the others. I haven't read the entire CT/AM version yet.

Edit: GURPS AR2 p7 mentions them: "no concept of racial unity or
purpose."

I think that many Islaiats would find their way into Ihatei business
(in some shape/form) and I have no doubt that the Aslan would
have their own equivalent of a "headhunter" (talent scout) and
would be looking to fill holes/roles and spots in various areas by
signing up other races who they perceive as useful.

GURPS AR2 p22 also has a paragraph on "Humans and non-Aslan in the
Hierate"; which seems to support that not everyone in a clan or in
the Hierate is an Aslan.

>