At Close Quarters for CT

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

So I finally had to realize Snapshot doesn't work for me.

I also had to realize that, out of roughly 500 gaming products I got sent over from a basement in Europe, two (2) went missing: Aftermath and AHL.

So, AHL is out, too. And Striker is simply impenetrable to me.

So... what's ACQ like?

I know it's fiddlier than either Snapshot or AHL. But is that fiddliness for fiddliness's sake, or does it translate into exciting tactical options?

There's a typical situation in which IMO Snapshot breaks down:

Given: two parties of e.g. three to four people using roughly the same weapons and the same light to medium armor. No hand grenades are in play.

Situation: Long narrow corridor on a ship, at either end of which the opponents are located, to left and right of the respective doors.

Naturally, neither party is inclined to march into that hallway.

Efforts to circle the enemy can be spotted from a mile away and are easily neutralized--they just lead to a similar stand-off.

How would this play out in ACQ?

ALSO: Where in the US can you get ACQ? You can't at Warehouse 23, nor at the BITS UK ebay store.

 

[Supplement Four]

It's written with T4 rules, so you'll have to do some conversion if you want to use CT rules.

And, to be honest, it's basically Snapshot with a few more gizmos and moves and such.

If you're going to use tactical movement and combat, what's wrong with Snapshot?

 

[Supplement Four]

There's a typical situation in which IMO Snapshot breaks down:

Given: two parties of e.g. three to four people using roughly the same weapons and the same light to medium armor. No hand grenades are in play.

Situation: Long narrow corridor on a ship, at either end of which the opponents are located, to left and right of the respective doors.

Naturally, neither party is inclined to march into that hallway.

Efforts to circle the enemy can be spotted from a mile away and are easily neutralized--they just lead to a similar stand-off.

Oh, that's what's wrong with Snapshot.

But, is that a failing or a feature of Snapshot?

I'd say it's the latter. Isn't it realistic that moving down a long corridor, with no cover, into the enemy's field of fire, is highly dangerous?

Who in their right mind would want to do that?

Why do you think Snapshot breaks down here?

 

[samuelvss]

Not having used Snapshot, but having from time to time studied tactics, I will uninformedly opine as follows: any tactical system that gives you anything but a standoff in the situation given is fatally flawed.

Either one relies on profound stupidity by one of the party members, ("Now, use the body for cover!") or complete suspension of a sense of self-preservation [same basic result]. :toast: Even these only give you a slightly more dramatic firefight that likely results in a stalemate.

Grenades are pretty much a sine quo non here.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Oh, that's what's wrong with Snapshot.

But, is that a failing or a feature of Snapshot?

I'd say it's the latter. Isn't it realistic that moving down a long corridor, with no cover, into the enemy's field of fire, is highly dangerous?

Who in their right mind would want to do that?

Why do you think Snapshot breaks down here?

Its realism is its failure. It should be an exciting game, but it isn't.

Because, given this situation, what do you do?

Parley, deceive? Every once in a while that's fine. But I solo-played three Snapshot games, and they all ended in a stand-off like this.

If that were to happen to me three times in a row in a Traveller game, it'd get old very soon.

How do other, similar games avoid this? I don't recall it ever happening in a Squad Leader game, and nobody's going to call that one unrealistic.

Perhaps it's because SL is largely outdoorsy...

 

[samuelvss]

I don't recall it ever happening in a Squad Leader game, and nobody's going to call that one unrealistic.

Perhaps it's because SL is largely outdoorsy...

Ranges and terrain types make all the difference. Plus, there's the grenades....

 

[flykiller]

Parley, deceive? Every once in a while that's fine. But I solo-played three Snapshot games, and they all ended in a stand-off like this.

"Boy it sure would be nice if we had some GRENADES, doncha think?"

you solo-played it? that's the problem. believe me, players will come up with solutions.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

"Boy it sure would be nice if we had some GRENADES, doncha think?"

"Too bad we're your typical free trader crew, so grenades are out of character for us."

 

[Supplement Four]

Because, given this situation, what do you do?

Have a neat encounter where, "Oh crap! They hold engineering and we hold the bridge!"

I'm not sure I'd like Snapshot if it weren't as realistic as it is.

Remember, though, that Snapshot is just the Classic Traveller combat system married to a tactical point system. If you like regular Book 1 Traveller combat, it seems you would like Snapshot.

AHL is a bit more "glossed over", and you may like it better. AHL was designed to do interior combats for Striker (Striker being used for exterior combats).

AHL works better with large numbers of combatants (not too large, but larger than your average party). Snapshot is really for party-sized encounters: Ten combatants or less.

You were asking about AQC. All it is is Snapshot, with T4 rules, and a couple of adjustments.

How do other, similar games avoid this? I don't recall it ever happening in a Squad Leader game, and nobody's going to call that one unrealistic.

Squad Leader was one level zoomed out, though--focussing on the squad. AHL/Striker may be more to your liking.

 

[mike wightman]

Actually AHL was designed long before Striker, it uses an action system very similar to Snapshot but with a different damage system tagged on.

Striker uses a slightly modified AHL damage resolution system, but does away with the action point element.

ACQ is very similar to AHL, but being based on T4 it has slightly different (and better IMHO) damage resolution and a lot more options than AHL.

Back to the scenario presented - stalemate is exactly right. If you want PCs to be able to charge down machine gun covered corridors then TNE is what you are after - shrug off a fusion gun blast or two...

 

[DaveChase]

I have a question or two for you

What are you looking for in a close combat (or you can see the whites of their eyes) type game?
This will help us help you by knowing what you are looking for and possibly point you into that direction.

What do you like about Snapshot and Striker? Anything?
This will also help us help you, as then we will know that other games to tell you about that are similar to those features.

Dave Chase

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

It's really quite simple. I'm interested in a game a) that works; b) with interesting tactical options. SL meets both criteria, Snapshot meets neither.

To be clear, this is not about movie vs. realism. It's about game vs. realism. I'm not looking for Star Wars. I'm looking for Squad Leader: The Indoors Scifi Version.

Snapshot does have interesting *ideas*. The AP system is very nice, ditto the preempting option, and the absence of counter stacking means you can play it with minis. One other annoying flaw is its badly defined LOS, which is unforgivable in a game this deadly, but that could be houseruled. Except for the stalemate issue the game is fine AFAIAC.

Striker goes right over my head.

 

[DaveChase]

OK

Here are some thoughts
(NOTE: I am not promoting the following games over Traveller. Only suggesting them as a reference to be looked for adaption to the Traveller Game. )

Board/table top games

Space Hulk by Games Workshop (the board game)
Legions of Steel (box set for interiors) and Planet Storm for outdoors open areas

Computer games to look at for ideals and charts and such

XCom: UFO Defense (still available to play and lots of charts in the books)
XCom: Apocalypse (same as above, plus both deal with flying similar to Grav Harnesses)
Fallout 1 & 2, plus Fallout Tactics (Tactics would probably be better for what you want)
And the old Breach computer games. Breach 3 was the best. It actually made me think of Snapshot and Traveller boarding actions.

All these have some of the elements of what you are looking for. And yes in all cases you will have to work and modify to make what you want. I have found very few games that have all of the things that I want for miniature actions in Sci Fi settings. Legions of Steel and XCom came the closest with Fallout Tactics being second.

All of these deal with individual/small group movements/fighting.
I did not mention any Traveller products cause I am assuming that you are looking for more than what they currently offer right now.

Dave Chase

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

David, thanks, but to be honest, I'm not a conversion person...

...he said, and started wondering how Stargrunt might play indoors...

 

[DaveChase]

Stargrunt is a good game too.

Indoors versus outdoors. Movement and LOS are the main issues in making any changes to open table top games to limited terrain type games.
Next are weapons:
Range (lobs are almost impossible, say oops on firing a grenade launcher indoors) along with area effect weapons (grenades have a tendency to be more messy in closed spaces)
Penetration of walls/obstacles are another issue to consider when dealing with indoors
How long will that cover last or is that wall only considered concealment

Corners are the biggest headache for some to determine LOS
Then stairs, chairs, furniture and plants

Real life movement in a building or closed space where you are watching/worried about the enemy appearing at any point makes you move slower or more cautiously.
I would recommend using Jungle movement cost for a guide line (assuming free form movement not marked spaces.)
I would recommend using 75% (round down) movement for marked boards versus or door movement distance (ie if your spaces are 1.5 m across and a person can move 10m a turn on table top, then the figure can only move 5 spaces a turn indoors while assuming a tactical posture.) Of course the figure can move 7 spaces a turn indoors but assume a modifier for being caught off guard.

Dave Chase

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm playing a damn cool game atm called Brothers In Arms: Road to Hill 30.

I've got it set on "Authentic" difficulty, so you've really got to think, move your sqaud intelligently and tactically, always try to find ways to flank, and just stay alive.

Well, there are parts where no flanking is possible. And, I'll tell ya, straight up the middle is not what you want to do.





NOTE: To those who haven't played this game and like WWII, squad based, first person, tactical shooters: This series is FANTASTIC.

See the thread in Random Static.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

NOTE: To those who haven't played this game and like WWII, squad based, first person, tactical shooters: This series is FANTASTIC.

That would be me. I've played Call of Duty 10+ times. I still do occasionally even though I can walk through on Veteran blindfolded.

Will BiA run on 5-year-old Dell with a crappo card, though?...

 

[Supplement Four]

Will BiA run on 5-year-old Dell with a crappo card, though?...

Probably not the newest game. The specs for Hill 30, which is fairly old, though, are: Windows XP/2000 (only); 1 Gig RAM recommended (512 MB min); 32 MB Video Card with DirectX 9.0c; DVD; 5 Gig harddrive space

Given that weak video card, I'd say, yeah, you can run it. If you ran Medal of Honor and Call of Duty, I'd say you can run Hill 30 and Earned in Blood, games 1 & 2.

Be warned, though, BiA delievers a different type of experience than either Call of Duty or Medal of Honor. Those games are traditional run-n-gun first person shooters.

In BiA, it's all about tactics and using your squad correctly. Flank. Flank. Flank. Rambo-style, up-the-middle type assaults can work in the game if you keep the difficulty on a low setting. But, I'd recommend at least "Normal" or "Difficult" setting for the most realistic, most enjoyable (I think) experience.

I'm sure there's a demo you can download somewhere, if you google it.

Plus... I found both Hill 30 and Earned in Blood for about $6.00 each, brand new, at my local used bookstore chain (called Half Price Books). You might be able to find a similiar deal.

 

[Garyius2003]

"Too bad we're your typical free trader crew, so grenades are out of character for us."

Go down to the locker, grab flares, grab bottle. Throw same down corridor with flares burning. Shoot bottle.

Throw just flares.

Make up smoke bomb from material in ship.

Starve them out.

Start the circle around by going out on the hull with welder or alongside their area, close the hatch on your side while at same time cutting through their hull section. A few hours in vacc suits should make them sad and tired if they even have them.

Take a hostage.

Do all of the above.

Note that none of these fit within the snapshot rules because they can't. They are, however, the correct things to try.

 

[pendragonman]

In addition to the above is the "everybody shoots rapidly down the corridor while our Marine low crawls under the covering fire to get close.

Or, if you hold engineering (or wherever you put your environmental controls) you turn off life support and power in general (and thus the lights) to there side of the ship. After a few minutes in the dark you give em the lit flares from above.

Or two of your bigger party members use a hatch door for cover as they push down the hallway.

Or...

Note that not all of these are either crazy or suicidal. Just determined not to lose.

A further note: there are things and tactics that will feel suicidal or crazy to the civilian, but are only a little out of the ordinary to the trained soldier. After all, what civilian would have every thought of "going over the top" in WWI or tactical assaulting a machine gun in any modern war.