ATU Library Data

[BwapTED]

RE Hard Science

I'm leaning harder/a bit more conservative than the OTU, but as I noted it isn't meant to be diamond hard.


RE emergent AI, shutdowns
Oooh, I like that! Thanks for sharing it. It could mesh well with certain limitations of computers and programs in the rules.


RE Jump and psionics

Sure, I've considered that. It may not actually be psionic powers as defined in the Traveller rules, of course. But it will involve something that runs counter to a strictly materialistic view of the universe. Which is fine. More than fine, in fact. I don't find materialism compelling in reality, so I don't necessarily expect it in my sci fi.
Minds matter, pardon the pun.

 

[Ulsyus]

RE Doom/creepy lab escape
Awwwww, yeah!
The adventure idea would fit.

Did I mention that I played a Pendragon session at a convention & afterwards had coffee with the creator of Doom? My claim to fame.

We can run pretty large vessels today with relatively small crews. But I wouldn't say humans are sidekicks to machines.

It depends on what sort of vessel you're referring to. Is it a supertanker, a modern frigate, or a USN aircraft carrier?

What you're talking about though has been done in literature - in his early Harrington series David Weber has vessels crewed by a couple of thousand personnel.

The easiest way to do this, it seems to me, is to limit AI. It may not even be an issue with CT, given how high a TL the core rules suggest for Artificial Intelligence.

Thoughts?

It depends what you define as AI. If you're talking about something that's a manufactured mechanical device that has developed sapience, it could be referred to as Machine Intelligence (MI) or Mind. If it seems as good as being sapient but actually isn't, that'd be ARTIFICIAL Intelligence, or if not quite so good but still able to carry a conversation then Virtual Intelligence. Next one down would be the Expert Systems, just upgraded so they have a voice interface.

Jump space navigation may require a human being to make sense of the weirdness of jump space. Computers help with math, but they lack the necessary imagination and subjectivity to understand how to move through jump. A navigator is pretty much necessary. Try it without one and you risk a much higher chance of misjump.
It may not even be possible to enter jump without a human navigator (or pilot, perhaps).

This depends on whether moving into or through J-space is simply a mathematical and mechanical event (OTU) or requires what at "current TL" is non-mechanical, such as psionics to enter or navigate to the destination. If the former, people are only needed to oversight the mechanical calculations. If the latter, then computers may not take on the task until a sufficiently high TL has been achieved.

 

[BwapTED]

More on hardness:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness


I'm not overly worried about how someone else might class my ATU.
That said, I'd probably peg what I'm going for about 4.

The big miracle is the jump drive/discovery of jump space. That lets people get out and explore, set up colonies, etc.


Removing gravitics is the biggest change so far.

Interestingly enough, I don't find a gravitics skill listed in my 1977 copy of Book 1.

I'm beginning to wonder whether I want to use High Guard or stick with Book 2rules.

I can always scale up.

Maybe I'm missing the reference, but does Book 2 every actually mention grav plates, reactionless gravitic thrusters, and all that?

 

[BwapTED]

Did I mention that I played a Pendragon session at a convention & afterwards had coffee with the creator of Doom? My claim to fame.



It depends on what sort of vessel you're referring to. Is it a supertanker, a modern frigate, or a USN aircraft carrier?

What you're talking about though has been done in literature - in his early Harrington series David Weber has vessels crewed by a couple of thousand personnel.



It depends what you define as AI. If you're talking about something that's a manufactured mechanical device that has developed sapience, it could be referred to as Machine Intelligence (MI) or Mind. If it seems as good as being sapient but actually isn't, that'd be ARTIFICIAL Intelligence, or if not quite so good but still able to carry a conversation then Virtual Intelligence. Next one down would be the Expert Systems, just upgraded so they have a voice interface.




This depends on whether moving into or through J-space is simply a mathematical and mechanical event (OTU) or requires what at "current TL" is non-mechanical, such as psionics to enter or navigate to the destination. If the former, people are only needed to oversight the mechanical calculations. If the latter, then computers may not take on the task until a sufficiently high TL has been achieved.

PENDRAGON!



Good points about AI, expert systems, etc. It bears more thought. I'm not committing to anything just yet.

As for J-space, yeah, I'm increasingly convinced it should require people, at least at the ''current tech level."

As for military crew size, I expect it's often larger than strictly necessary, to allow for battle losses.
Then again, under the rules, if a ship gets smashed up badly enough to kill or KO crewmen, is it usually totaled/blown uP ANYWAY?

I've run CT (not as much as I would have liked to un it), but mainly planetside action with hips as plot devices getting people from one place to another. I'm still getting the hnag of ships combat and stuff like that.

 

[BwapTED]

MORE NOTES ON TECH, OBSERVATIONS ABOUT STUFF IN THE BOOKS-

Ditching gravitics would seem to make a lot more room for higher TL versions of mini-helicopters, ATVs, ground cars, boats, etc.
I may mine other games, like GURPS, for some nifty conventional-but-advanced vehicles.

Apart from a lack of gravitic vehicles, my tech base for developed worlds seems to be hovering around the 9-13 range.
Nothing over 15.

• Battle dress

Not sure. I like the Starship Troopers thing, but I wonder if it would be so powerful than other infantry are totally outclassed.
I'll need to decide if Troopers from high tech worlds use this stuff, or a less powerful armored vacc suit.


Ship size and drive types-

The questions remains: use High Guard? Use Book 2 without mods?
Something else? Scale up?
I like the image of large spaceships with relatively small crews.

I might be overthinking this.


RE: BIG VESSELS
Maybe the really big craft I'm envisioning are :

• STL and only for in system use
  
• never meant to be trans-atmospheric/have no landing ability at all
  
• slow/lacking oomph compared with starship maneuver drives

These would be big, slow technical box style freighters, plenty of automation but some human oversight for safety and legal reasons.



RE HIGH GUARD:
I'll have to re-read it before I settle all this in my mind. Feedback and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Initial thoughts:

Extended character generation is cool, but looks like it might balance poorly with characters made under the simpler system in Book 1 and in Supplement 4 :Citizens of the Imperium. It might also be time consuming.
I'm probably going with ''Yes, Virginia, you can die during character generation", so slowing down the generation process may not be a great idea for my game.


I'm not sure the model of the space navy as presented in HG fits my concept of space forces.

Meson guns, nuclear dampers, black globes and all that are gosh wow fun, but probably not the best fit for this particular ATU.

I think Book 2's trio of lasers, missiles, and sandcasters may be just fine.

The Frozen Watch is a cool idea, but I don't think it makes so much sense with the horribly risky low berths of the standard game. Of course, I noted in my first post that cold sleep in this ATU is more reliable than standard low berth tech.


Is High Guard (1979) the first mention of the Imperium (I note it hasn't grown a Third in front of Imperium yet) in an actual Traveller rulebook? It doesn't really matter in regard to my ATU, but I'm curious.

 

[tjoneslo]

Battledress: Not sure. I like the Starship Troopers thing, but I wonder if it would be so powerful than other infantry are totally outclassed.
I'll need to decide if Troopers from high tech worlds use this stuff, or a less powerful armored vacc suit.

Real battledress depends upon a small, portable, but very powerful power source. A gas powered turbine you can get 1-3 hours of use, with attendant logistical problems. Batteries which exceed this weight/power ratio and/or small nuclear (e.g. Fusion+) generators are a possibility. This will also affect the vehicles in use too. You can have much cooler stuff if there's more power available.

Ship size and drive types-

The questions remains: use High Guard? Use Book 2 without mods?
Something else? Scale up?
I like the image of large spaceships with relatively small crews.

I might be overthinking this.

I think you need to define "large" with actual measurements. I remember a story from Loren Wiseman (of Traveller design fame), about how the GDW team went out into a parking lot and used tape to layout the 100 DTon scout ship. And were blown away at how large it turned out.

A 100DTon scout at J2 is still 3800 square feet, the size of a good size apartment. At 1000DTon this is a good sized apartment building. Is this big enough or do you want larger?

Is High Guard (1979) the first mention of the Imperium (I note it hasn't grown a Third in front of Imperium yet) in an actual Traveller rulebook? It doesn't really matter in regard to my ATU, but I'm curious.

It's mentioned in passing in book 4 Mercenary.

 

[Ulsyus]

Then again, under the rules, if a ship gets smashed up badly enough to kill or KO crewmen, is it usually totaled/blown uP ANYWAY?

I've run CT (not as much as I would have liked to un it), but mainly planetside action with hips as plot devices getting people from one place to another. I'm still getting the hnag of ships combat and stuff like that.

Not necessarily, though there would be a threshold beyond which remaining crew wouldn't be able to render a damaged vessel operable during an action taking hours instead of days.

The campaign you've run is still every bit as valid as one that has PCs crewing a ship. If it's going to detract from your game, or you don't have the time to devote to coming to grips with starships while running your current game, then just go with what you know until you've time to do otherwise.

Battledress: Not sure. I like the Starship Troopers thing, but I wonder if it would be so powerful than other infantry are totally outclassed.

It's only an issue until the other infantry are armed with sufficient man-portable missiles that can knock out powered armour, at which point you're right back into the guidance-penetration-armour-countermeasures box that militaries normally find themselves in. How did the IDF find themselves in trouble the last time they went into Lebanon? Their opposition had a greatly increased arsenal of ATGMs, and revised tactics to maximise their use of such.

 

[BwapTED]

Real battledress depends upon a small, portable, but very powerful power source. A gas powered turbine you can get 1-3 hours of use, with attendant logistical problems. Batteries which exceed this weight/power ratio and/or small nuclear (e.g. Fusion+) generators are a possibility. This will also affect the vehicles in use too. You can have much cooler stuff if there's more power available.



I think you need to define "large" with actual measurements. I remember a story from Loren Wiseman (of Traveller design fame), about how the GDW team went out into a parking lot and used tape to layout the 100 DTon scout ship. And were blown away at how large it turned out.

A 100DTon scout at J2 is still 3800 square feet, the size of a good size apartment. At 1000DTon this is a good sized apartment building. Is this big enough or do you want larger?



It's mentioned in passing in book 4 Mercenary.

Hmm, good point about size.


I'm not sure how accurate this is, but:

http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/Traveller/trav3d/sizechart/index.htm


I was thinking for a time of really big ships, larger even than the silhouetted vessels in the bottom set of images.

But the more I re-read Book 2, the more I am persuaded that ''small ship universe" might be the way to go. Sizes up to 5K tons.

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/classic/ken-pick/ahhvymerch.html




Another size comp.

http://rob-caswell.deviantart.com/art/Traveller-Starship-Size-Comparison-375080388


When I think of bigger ships in SF...

http://infographics.idlelist.com/starship-size-comparison-chart-large/


But, again, this is something that might shift.

My ATU might actually work better "small ship'' (under 5OO d-tons) for all starships.



Larger in-system only craft (if they exist) would be incapable of jump and much to underpowered in relation to mass to be suited for system defense/interdiction. Rock pushers.
Not the kind of things you use for war, exploration, or interstellar trade.


FURTHER NOTE

Without gravitics, ship designs may look different.

Spin sections may be added.

Thrust and stacked floors, or orienting the ship in a certain way during transit, can also work.

Yeah, I know about dirt cheap planet crackers.


http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/artificialgrav.php


Another possibility, maybe a bit goofy, is that Jump Space, being "flat" in my version (a common conceit, I'm told-- it explains the 2-D star charts used in the game) has an up and a down.
So when a ship enters jump, stuff falls inside the ship falls to the floor. The ship may even seem to descend onto the planar jump matrix, and to sink below the matrix when exiting.

Or at least that's how people perceive it.

This makes jump space even weirder than it already is. It also ought to allow me to retain a lot of standard designs for starships. They spend a week at a time in jump, so maybe months in jump for very long trips. How long do they spend in real space?
Tough question, because it depends on the ship's maneuver drives, fuel supply, nature of missions, diameters of planets passed or visited, etc...


The sudden "fall" into jump space might make for a cool transition.


And spacers would want to learn zero g skills for the real space portions of their trips.

 

[tjoneslo]

Hmm, good point about size.

I was thinking for a time of really big ships, larger even than the silhouetted vessels in the bottom set of images.

But the more I re-read Book 2, the more I am persuaded that ''small ship universe" might be the way to go. Sizes up to 5K tons.

Larger in-system only craft (if they exist) would be incapable of jump and not suited for system defense/interdiction. Rock pushers.

Let's try a bigger set of comparisons: http://dirkloechel.deviantart.com/art/Size-Comparison-Science-Fiction-Spaceships-398790051

This has ships from many different sources, games, books, TV shows, and so on. With a scale of 10m per pixel and the IISS is in the upper left corner. We can redefine "large".

One of the more interesting pieces on this topic was Chris Thrash determining the maximum size of ships based upon the acceleration of the ships and known materials in the Traveller universe: Starship Hulls. Depending upon the drive capabilities you assume, you may have a way to limit hull sized other than simple jump drives.

 

[BwapTED]

Let's try a bigger set of comparisons: http://dirkloechel.deviantart.com/art/Size-Comparison-Science-Fiction-Spaceships-398790051

This has ships from many different sources, games, books, TV shows, and so on. With a scale of 10m per pixel and the IISS is in the upper left corner. We can redefine "large".

One of the more interesting pieces on this topic was Chris Thrash determining the maximum size of ships based upon the acceleration of the ships and known materials in the Traveller universe: Starship Hulls. Depending upon the drive capabilities you assume, you may have a way to limit hull sized other than simple jump drives.

Cool!

Thanks for sharing all that.

Do you prefer Book 2 rules and High Guard rules?

 

[BwapTED]

more on 'puters, jump, other stuff:


I've gone ahead and made the "need human input to pilot into and out of j-space, and to nav within it/avoid misjumps" a rule.
It seems like a good way to keep humans integral to space travel. Note that unskilled characters can still attempt to enter/exit/nav jump space. That's another good reason to get a ship's computer with the right programs.
But skilled is better than unskilled, esp. for navigation.



I'll leave the special electronics effects of jump space out for now, until I have had full time to consider the excellent advice I've received about various ramifactions of it, and different sorts of computers and electronics systems.


The up and down/ apparent normal 1G feature of jump space is now included in the library data post. WHY? To differentiate jump space from real space, to make the transition easier to describe, and to avoid having to redraw a gazillion starship deck plans.





GUNNER

I looked it up. Gunner interact program in Book2. The program adds the gunner's expertise (skill rating) as a positive DM on a specific turret.

Boom, that's what I wanted, already part of the game. Man+ machine= better than either alone, if the man is skilled.

PSIONICS


I have mixed feelings about psi in this setting.

On the one hand, no psi makes things seem a little less space opera and a little more hard-ish sci fi. It tamps down on ''kewl powers.''


On the other hand, psi shows up in some of the material that has inspired me in the first place. Not all, but some.
Hardness is actually less important to me than ""used future'' and a certain level of grit.

On the gripping hand, I could connect psi with the Provolutionists and their experiments. That would neatly explain a generally negative attitude towards it on most worlds.



Thoughts?

 

[tjoneslo]

Do you prefer Book 2 rules and High Guard rules?

I prefer the High Guard rules because I'm a gearhead and like building things at odd volumes and sizes for optimization purposes. Make your decision upon how much time you want to spend building ships, vs. working on the rest of the campaign. Based upon other posts, you'd be happiest with Book 2 so do that.

 

[Ulsyus]

Do you want a big ship or small ship setting? That decision should help with the way you go. Or, do you want to have spinal weapons (HG) or just go with bay weapons (or really big turrets a la BSG) on your vessels?

 

[tjoneslo]

Do you want a big ship or small ship setting? That decision should help with the way you go. Or, do you want to have spinal weapons (HG) or just go with bay weapons (or really big turrets a la BSG) on your vessels?

The more I think about it, the less I think it matters. You can build sub 5K dton ships with book 5 with no problem. The difference between the two ends up the addition of bay weapons to the larger ships. There are some other differences in terms of size of thing (bridge, power plan, etc).

The difference between the two is book 5 says you can build 1M dton ships, but you don't have to allow that. Similar to you, as referee, saying there are no aliens, or IISS, or Psionics.

 

[tjoneslo]

PSIONICS
I have mixed feelings about psi in this setting.

On the one hand, no psi makes things seem a little less space opera and a little more hard-ish sci fi. It tamps down on ''kewl powers.''

On the other hand, psi shows up in some of the material that has inspired me in the first place. Not all, but some.
Hardness is actually less important to me than ""used future'' and a certain level of grit.

On the gripping hand, I could connect psi with the Provolutionists and their experiments. That would neatly explain a generally negative attitude towards it on most worlds.

Thoughts?

Were I Refereeing this I would leave this up to player interest. I would make no mention of psionics in the intro material given to players. If they ask, I would say "rumors exist but nothing is known, so no at start". If the players seem interested in pursuing it as a plot line, then work in the details. If not, no extra work needs to be done.

I like the angle of the Provolutionist genetic experiments to enhance what little psi powers exist. If the player are interested in pursuing the "Dark Secrets" side of the campaign I might split the Provolutionists from the underground Psionics Guilds, and have them run between the two. If only a little interest, or only one player willing to pursue it then maybe just have the few underground guilds hiding, mostly from paranoia.

 

[Jason M Durkish]

For Psionics you could have a campaign where the mane villain
Is a psis (like the Mule from Isaac Asimov's Foundation series) .

 

[BwapTED]

It looks as if I can't edit that first post again.

No prob. Some of this will likely end up on a blog, if it gets developed enough.

Here's another library data entry:



Gestalt
Programming that enables a combination of human skill and machine functions with improved effectiveness beyond what the human or the automated system could accomplish alone. Gunner interact program is one common example. Other types have been created.