Average Imperial Planet..?

[Quint]

So, I seem to recall reading something here that talked about the average Imperial planet as opposed to being the average planet as rolled on the dice. My recollection is that it was higher tech, higher population, and higher law level.

Anyone remember or know what I'm talking about? Have a source?

Thanks,

D.

 

[aramis]

It has to do with the populations...
In non-MGT...
The average random imperial world C555555-6.
The average random world citizen is from a C555AAA-9.

Pop A worlds consist of 1/36 of worlds. 1 share of population
Pop 9 worlds are 2/36, but 1/10 the pop. So, 0.2 shares
Pop 8 worlds are 3/36, but 1/100 the pop... so 0.03 shares.
the net total shares are thus 1.2345654321, so Pop A is about 81% of the population.

The reality of the 3I as mapped in the 5 "assuredly canonical imperial sectors" as originally released is actually somewhat different than these numbers. That's because all of those were massaged a bit by the developers. (Spinward Marches, Deneb, Trojan Reach, Reft, Solomani Rim.) I don't know whether the Gateway domain was massaged. Vland (from V&V) has alternate world gen, but may not have been massaged; it is slightly different.

In MGT, if not using the options, the above holds true.
If using the options on page 180, Hard Science means the average citizen is from an A port, as well, and is from an average TL of 11...

In T5, the numbers are skewed... by the "10= reroll as 2d6+3" rule (p409)

Pop	Odds	Shares
15	1/1296	100000
14	2/1296	20000
13	3/1296	3000
12	4/1296	400
11	5/1296	50
10	6/1296	6
9	77/1296	7.7
8	112/1296	1.12
7	147/1296	0.147
6	182/1296	0.0182
5	217/1296	0.00217
4	180/1296	0.00018
3	144/1296	0.0000144
2	108/1296	0.00000108
1	72/1296	0.000000072
0	36/1296	0
Totals]	1296/1296	123464.987565552

Pop F is thus 80% of the imperial population... even tho' it's under 0.1% of worlds.

 

[Quint]

Thank you!

It was late and I'm brain dead, so I wasn't sure if it was matching RAW scores explaining things, or if there was some sort of other data someplace.

D.

 

[aramis]

Note also: If you use the calculations in Hard Times or TNE for maximum sustainable population, the numbers tend to go way down, but the general proportions tend to be similar.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Talk about timing! I have my Worlds Database up and running!

One way to look at things is based on how worlds are generated. However, Aramis is right. Sectors were tweaked, so a more proper way would be to look at how things simply laid out in current data. Because of my work history in data analysis, I suggest there are two ways to look at things. First detemine your sample population

Drawn from the travellermap.com Sector data
A.Per world basis:
8958 mainworlds
This is the number of mainworlds having an allegiance of Im?? where ?? is the Domain or cultural region.

B.Per participant basis
3.772554998133E+12 sophonts (darned scientific notation)
or
3,772,554,998,133 sophonts
This is the population total of the 8958 worlds (10^PopulationDigit)*PopulationMultiplier)

 

[aramis]

Talk about timing! I have my Worlds Database up and running!

One way to look at things is based on how worlds are generated. However, Aramis is right. Sectors were tweaked, so a more proper way would be to look at how things simply laid out in current data. Because of my work history in data analysis, I suggest there are two ways to look at things. First detemine your sample population

Drawn from the travellermap.com Sector data
A.Per world basis:
8958 mainworlds
This is the number of mainworlds having an allegiance of Im?? where ?? is the Domain or cultural region.

B.Per participant basis
3.772554998133E+12 sophonts (darned scientific notation)
or
3,772,554,998,133 sophonts
This is the population total of the 8958 worlds (10^PopulationDigit)*PopulationMultiplier)

how many are pop A and how many pop 9? Those are (roughly) the only ones that matter,

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Per world basis:
All other things being equal median would be the 4479th world in each statistic so lets start.

Taking each stat by itself in a one-dimensional analysis ordered by eHex, except population which I ordered by eHex digit and multiplier, I end up median values as such:
UPP Ix Ex Cx PBG W RU
B554555-A { 1 } (A44-1) [4539] 713 11 130

You may disagree with that is how the Third Imperium feels, but that is the cold hard numbers there based solely on each element analyzed individually (except population) in the T5SS UWP.

Based on each mainworld having 1 share.
I will do this again, with each sophont having a share, when I wake up later today.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

how many are pop A and how many pop 9? Those are (roughly) the only ones that matter,

P=Population Digit, C=Count of Worlds with P
P C
0 23
1 421
2 649
3 929
4 1300
5 1500
6 1221
7 1067
8 905
9 640
A 303
Thanks for popping that up, I forgot to take the number of worlds when I did my head count. The total Population is 18,000,883,547,720
A.(10^Population Digit*Population Multiplier) for a world.
B.Add the populations of each world (forgot to do that).

Will do better analysis when I wake up.

 

[tjoneslo]

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Trade_map_summary

This is a simliar kind of analysis, but done across all the known sectors. I though I had done the Imperium specifically, but no. I'll add that for the next pass.

 

[Quint]

So, on a related note, we "know" that the average Imperial tech level is 12, and this RAW analysis suggests that there is some factor other than population density to account for this.

Unless someone has done the numbers and shows that, weighted for population across Pop, the average TL is 12?

D.

 

[creativehum]

A dumb question perhaps:

I have always assumed the Main World generation system produces worlds at the fringes of whatever interstellar government. (Books 1-3 imply this in a variety of ways. The first page of Book 4 makes this explicit.)

So, these rolls would have nothing to do with anything average about the Imperium itself. The average of the rolls would tell us about the average of a frontier.

Otherwise, the average Imperial world is quite lawless and, strangely, does not even have spacecraft yet. This doesn't seem to be, however how the Third Imperium has been portrayed.

OTU-heads, can you explain to me what the deal is?

 

[casquilho]

Wouldn't the average be different in the core of the Empire thanks to Terraforming? I mean wouldn't you expect the average to shift as you move toward the edges of the Empire?

 

[Condottiere]

I'm gonna speculate that tech level twelve gadgets are good enough, and at the right price point.

How much merchant shipping has jump four engines?

 

[tjoneslo]

Otherwise, the average Imperial world is quite lawless and, strangely, does not even have spacecraft yet. This doesn't seem to be, however how the Third Imperium has been portrayed.

OTU-heads, can you explain to me what the deal is?

There are two definitions of "Average" in this case.

The first, as presented by Nathan, was a median based upon the numbers. So the median Population on all worlds is 5 (10,000) and median TL is A.

A better measure would by population (see the second table). For example 55% of the populations live at TL B or higher, despite the median being TL A. 40% of the population lives at Law Level 8 or higher.

So what the median world is like is not the same as where the average citizen lives.

 

[creativehum]

Thank you for the reply.

But I believe Nathan is drawing his conclusions from the data in The Traveller Map.

My question is based on the premise of using the actual rules.

In this case Aramis' assessment is correct:
"The average random imperial world C555555-6."

Yes?

My question being: one can't use the rules and expect them to be valid for the entire Imperium, right? They provide values that make sense for the edges of an interstellar empire, given the average starport rating, law level, and tech level. Or am I missing something?

 

[aramis]

Thank you for the reply.

But I believe Nathan is drawing his conclusions from the data in The Traveller Map.

My question is based on the premise of using the actual rules.

In this case Aramis' assessment is correct:
"The average random imperial world C555555-6."

Yes?

yes. the odds of the median world, however....
In CT: 15/36 * 1/6^6 * 1/6= 15/(6^9)=15/10077696=1/671846.4=671846.4

In T5: 11/36 * 1/6^5 * 37/6^4 * 1/6= 11*37/6^(2+5+4+1)=407/6^12 = 407/2176782336= 1/5348359.5... = 0.00000018697321880509784

My question being: one can't use the rules and expect them to be valid for the entire Imperium, right? They provide values that make sense for the edges of an interstellar empire, given the average starport rating, law level, and tech level. Or am I missing something?

The 3I's not randomly generated, per se. So no, they aren't actually valid for the imperium, because Mark, Loren, Frank, Gary, Joe, Bill, and Andrew all overrode the basic mechanics in various ways.

 

[salochin999]

A dumb question perhaps:

I have always assumed the Main World generation system produces worlds at the fringes of whatever interstellar government. (Books 1-3 imply this in a variety of ways. The first page of Book 4 makes this explicit.)

So, these rolls would have nothing to do with anything average about the Imperium itself. The average of the rolls would tell us about the average of a frontier.

Otherwise, the average Imperial world is quite lawless and, strangely, does not even have spacecraft yet. This doesn't seem to be, however how the Third Imperium has been portrayed.

OTU-heads, can you explain to me what the deal is?

I had conceptual problem with this for a long time but as the world gen naturally produces a small number of alpha planets (high pop + high tech) I got around it in my head by deciding the 3I is at heart a silk road empire which links up all the alpha planets.

After that mental switch the rest mostly falls into place.

All the megacorporation / dreadnought stuff from the published material can still happen in the systems along the silk road.

If most of the smaller pop systems (pop 6-) are colonies from the alpha planets: refueling stops, mining colonies, religious cults etc, then all the Firefly stuff can happen there.

In between planets (mid / high pop + low / mid tech) that are close to an alpha and part of the trade network are part of the alpha's hinterland and were probably part of its pocket empire before the 3I came along.

That just leaves those in-between planets that aren't close to an alpha or part of the trade network as exotic exceptions that need creative explanations (like jump shadowed John Carter of Mars planets or a religious anti-tech culture or modified humans or whatever).

#

If I was rolling the 3I world stats from scratch I'd change some of the DMs by distance from the core i.e. core sub-sectors would get DM+2 (or something) on star port and population but otherwise, if you picture the 3I as a silk road empire the world gen works okay imo (and with the added benefit of having a frontier inside the 3I).

#

edit
that's not to say the "just beyond the edge of an expanding polity" setting idea isn't a good and possibly better idea than bogging yourself done with the OTU.

i wanted to run games in a close to OTU setting for nostalgia reasons.

 

[creativehum]

I had conceptual problem with this for a long time but as the world gen naturally produces a small number of alpha planets (high pop + high tech) I got around it in my head by deciding the 3I is at heart a silk road empire which links up all the alpha planets.

After that mental switch the rest mostly falls into place.

All the megacorporation / dreadnought stuff from the published material can still happen in the systems along the silk road.

If most of the smaller pop systems (pop 6-) are colonies from the alpha planets: refueling stops, mining colonies, religious cults etc, then all the Firefly stuff can happen there.

In between planets (mid / high pop + low / mid tech) that are close to an alpha and part of the trade network are part of the alpha's hinterland and were probably part of its pocket empire before the 3I came along.

That just leaves those in-between planets that aren't close to an alpha or part of the trade network as exotic exceptions that need creative explanations (like jump shadowed John Carter of Mars planets or a religious anti-tech culture or modified humans or whatever).

#

If I was rolling the 3I world stats from scratch I'd change some of the DMs by distance from the core i.e. core sub-sectors would get DM+2 (or something) on star port and population but otherwise, if you picture the 3I as a silk road empire the world gen works okay imo (and with the added benefit of having a frontier inside the 3I).

#

edit
that's not to say the "just beyond the edge of an expanding polity" setting idea isn't a good and possibly better idea than bogging yourself done with the OTU.

i wanted to run games in a close to OTU setting for nostalgia reasons.

That seems like a cool representation of the results to run across an entire empire!

The thing is, as Hans (RIP) was fond of saying, the 3I is essentially 20th century First World Earth spread across the stars.

I've always been fascinated by the split between a world generation system that demands exotic justification (and thus cool environments you describe above) and an official setting that, when typed out, feels like something out of a bland Michelin Travel Guide. (even in the supposed "frontier".)

I'm also fascinated by the fact I seem to be bothered by this fact and that I prefer the porential found in the actual rules to what was built as the OTU.

 

[salochin999]

That seems like a cool representation of the results to run across an entire empire!

The thing is, as Hans (RIP) was fond of saying, the 3I is essentially 20th century First World Earth spread across the stars.

I've always been fascinated by the split between a world generation system that demands exotic justification (and thus cool environments you describe above) and an official setting that, when typed out, feels like something out of a bland Michelin Travel Guide. (even in the supposed "frontier".)

I'm also fascinated by the fact I seem to be bothered by this fact and that I prefer the porential found in the actual rules to what was built as the OTU.

Yeah I think sci fi settings need a strong visual anchor or they will gradually just morph into the modern world - like star ports in Traveller turned into air ports.

"I'm also fascinated by the fact I seem to be bothered by this fact and that I prefer the porential found in the actual rules to what was built as the OTU."

A good thing imo as there's a lot of juicy meat in Traveller which got buried under too much bread.

 

[mike wightman]

I often wonder what if instead of the 3I as the OTU what if GDW had started with a campaign background universe based on pocket empires emerging from the long night?

You could have a sizable pocket empire off board, detail the frontier subsector(s) the players will be stamping all over and keep the Imperium (1,2 and 3)etc as history to dip into.