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Back in the Rim: language, censorship, religion, rationalism

Originally posted by Straybow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think it is quite a stretch to think that Islam or Christianity will survive that long. As major world religions, I give them 2 centuries, tops. As archaic holdovers, maybe 2 more centuries. After that, only in the history books.
I think Voltaire said something to that effect&#133; about 200 years ago. ;)
</font>[/QUOTE]I think that Voltaire was a little ahead of his time on that one. That, or he was being optimistic.

On the other hand, I can also see the current fundamentalist movements in both Islam and Christianity as attempt to turn back the clock. As they slip farther into irrelevance, the insecure and unstable minds of some will strive all the louder to deny the reality of cold hard fact.

Oh, and since there seemed to be a stight misconception, I did not mean to imply that these faiths would only exist for 200 yaers, total. I am saying that 200 years from now, neither Christianity nor Islam will have any significant hold on the world's population. I am quite aware of the length of their histories.
 
Sorry, but I don't see our current crop of religions surviving contact with extraterrestrial aliens...Maybe they adapt and merge - ala Dune's Buddaislamics, but I can't see any of our major religions - all of which put the Earth as center of importance, coming up with the reality of a far flung interstellar civilization that doesn't practice religion itself (or condradicts Terran religion)
I mean, imagine someone trying to talk to a Vilani, whose civilization was heading for the stars before Christ was even born...What possible argument could be made for the reality of religion at that point? It would have to accept the real universe, and evolve ALOT, or become irrelevent...

-MADDog
 
Still, I think religion is a very intriguing area for gaming to explore so long as everyone keeps his temper in check and doesn't try to force his/her ideas upon the others, it makes for a neat story. Forgot to mention one book where the church plays a significant role, Pournelle's "King David's Sapceship" has the church (I read this as the Catholic church probably because of cultural bias since it really didn't state what church, only mentions the missionaries were priests and labels the leader as a bishop, I believe) contacting a back fallen society on the planet Makassar and the mission is trapped in one of the larger city-states by a barbarian horde when the heroes arrive. Won't spoil the story, only say I very much enjoyed it and it would make a great New Era scenario.
:cool:
Pappy
 
Here's a question, will the major and minor races of Traveller have their own religions?
Or, put it another way, do the Vilani (etc- use the name of the race of your choice) have one religeous belief or are there many, as there are on Earth now?
 
I'm thinking that the Sollie experience is also flavored from an economic perspective...
For the longest time, Earth and it's decendants (the Terran Union, 2nd Imperium, Solomani Confederation, etc) have all been an economic powerhouse. The ships that fueled the incredible takeover of the Ziru Sirka, the ships that enabled Terra to mount expeditions ONLY rivaled by the Zhodani Core Route, the ships that brought prosperity to the failing RoM...These all came from Terra and its original colonies (some of which end up in even Aslan territory). A HUGE amount of traders and the other ships that enable a prosperous Empire...
So wouldn't they take exception to Cleon's Empire with the Megacorps owned and supported by the 3I coming into the Sollie Sphere?? The Vilani struggle along for the longest time, only the Terrans can truly run a big, prosperous corporation...
I also think they take offense at the amount of work that occurs in Terran worlds that is simply exploited for the enriching of Core, while Rim worlds get ignored or worse, economically raped by the Megacorps further into the Imperium...

-MADDog
 
On the other hand, I can also see the current fundamentalist movements in both Islam and Christianity as attempt to turn back the clock. As they slip farther into irrelevance, the insecure and unstable minds of some will strive all the louder to deny the reality of cold hard fact.
there are many cold, hard facts. science achieves its security and stability by ignoring certain facts. religion achieves its security and stability by facing those same facts. no, religion will always be influential, because religion addresses those issues that people need answered but that "progress" won't touch.
 
Sorry, but I don't see our current crop of religions surviving contact with extraterrestrial aliens...Maybe they adapt and merge - ala Dune's Buddaislamics, but I can't see any of our major religions - all of which put the Earth as center of importance, coming up with the reality of a far flung interstellar civilization that doesn't practice religion itself (or condradicts Terran religion)
and what if the alien religion doesn't contradict it at its core? earth is in fact not the center of importance.
I mean, imagine someone trying to talk to a Vilani, whose civilization was heading for the stars before Christ was even born...What possible argument could be made for the reality of religion at that point? It would have to accept the real universe, and evolve ALOT
(smile) by "real universe" you mean the material universe. and if you view religion as a failed science, then yes, of course it's not relevant. but religion is not a failed science, it's something else.
 
I think that Voltaire was a little ahead of his time on that one. That, or he was being optimistic.
Sorry, but I don't see our current crop of religions surviving contact with extraterrestrial aliens
"I don't see religion surviving _____" is always overestimating "_____" (whatever it is). Historically, religions only die when the entire culture dies. And some survive even that, becoming a foundation for the new culture.
 
Suppose we run into another race and their religions mirror our own, after all there ARE many fairly common recurring themes in the various bodies of mythos that the various tribes of mankind have devised. Could it be that intelligence would breed a religion as a social "need" at some point. It could be that we WILL outgrow our need for religion at some point, but we don't seem to have done it yet. Maybe it is part of growing up into sapience, even Neanderthals had some form of religion, case in point, their methods of burial indicate some belief in an afterlife, maybe religion is univesal, not the individual myths, but the body of mythos itself may be something any intelligence would develop over time as part of growing up. Like an imaginary friend, security pal, so to speak.

Pappy
 
I think that in general, religion will always be a part of human society. It answers a need that science cannot. Outgrowing our need for religion is like outgrowing our need for food.
 
Yep, I think you're right. Religion is probably with us to stay. We'll take religion to the stars along with flies, cockroaches, and mice, just part of the baggage humans drag around with them. This isn't a criticism of religion, I'm a practioner of a personally satisfying religion, just an observation.

Pappy
 
I agree, although a more politically correct comparison might be made to language, literature, and other cultural baggage. Sure, some colonies might have a movement to discard Earth history, Shakespeare, and whatnot but many colonies would desire to retain ties to Earth heritage.

I would also say the idea that humans exported to other planets millennia ago would not form religions of their own is a highly prejudiced assumption.

Perhaps a few exohuman cultures would discard religion at some point. It's perfectly OK to assume that the Vilani are one such example.

I would not be surprised if the Zhodiani interpreted psionics with a religious tone, perhaps something resembling Buddhism.
 
Just because they were transplanted to other systems, I can't see the Vilani and other races of scattered Humaniti forsaking their early beliefs, in fact, they might just have a better reason to believe in a superior being(s)after their close encounter with the Ancients.

Pappy
 
Vilani Religion

The Vilani would have a few religions survive to 1100, which would probably be somewhere on the tree-of-religions similar to what we have had over the millenia, just by their nature of being human. They would have prophets and writings of all kinds. Perhaps we can characterize all Vilani religions (to some degree) by characterizing their culture. Of course, their 'recent' culture is dominated by the Bureaux; major surviving religions (primitive and sophisticated, rational and mystical) would cement in with these.

But overall, Vilani religion would most likely dovetail with the difficulty of food preparation; in fact I seem to recall that the Vilani priest is also the Shugilii -- the chef. The two roles are intertwined. Thus eating would take on more religious significance for them than it does for us, agricultural myths notwithstanding, and food preparation would be a symbol of providence, responsibility, and trust: the Vilani reader who finds the psalm that states:

Emranshani bineriigim nidba ka shinerii ka bardur...

"You prepare a preserved food supply for me in the wilds..."

...would immediately understand the kind of dependence and providence implied there.

Reaction to Solomani religions would probably be as polarizing to a Vilani as they are to a Solomani: cling to some, vehemently reject some, ignore the rest. They might understand the overall classifications of Solomani religions, but might not grok some of the emphases.

They would perfectly understand clean vs unclean foods, though Solomani classification may mystify them at a gut level.

They would not understand agricultural religions very well, because their basis of agriculture appears to be fundamentally different. However, agricultural metaphors would survive intact, since all plants germinate, bear fruit, and die.

The elements of some stories might distract them because they have a different context. For instance, Ieshua tells fishers to cast their nets, and the resulting catch is almost too massive to haul on their ship. This may not impress the Vilani, because some of their seas may teem with sea life that is easy to catch but too poisonous to eat. But all that says is that translation is critical when you're trying to communicate with people from another culture... let alone another planet.

And, of course, religions with raw political might could attract Vilani seekers. A religion that espouses active devotion to an unseen deity, while also assuring its followers victory and honor in battle, might be just the kind of thing that created the Ziru Sirka in the first place. Such a religion might have a mythical leader who resembles some combination of Julia Child and Muad'Dib.
 
Hope this doesn't highjack the thread, but I've noticed a big difference between how people pronounce "Solomani" depending in what region you grew up and who you began adventuring with.

I (we), that is all my friends who started way back in 1981 - 82 pronounced it
(Saul-ahm-an-eye)
and sped it up after a while so that it sounds like (Saul-ahm-nigh)

I've also heard people pronounce it
(Soul-oh-mahn-eee)

I know someone who pronounces it

(Soul-oh-main-eee)

Anyone know how the creator (Marc Miller) intended it to sound???

JakNaz
 
Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
Hope this doesn't highjack the thread, but I've noticed a big difference between how people pronounce "Solomani" depending in what region you grew up and who you began adventuring with.

I (we), that is all my friends who started way back in 1981 - 82 pronounced it
(Saul-ahm-an-eye)
and sped it up after a while so that it sounds like (Saul-ahm-nigh)

I've also heard people pronounce it
(Soul-oh-mahn-eee)

I know someone who pronounces it

(Soul-oh-main-eee)

Anyone know how the creator (Marc Miller) intended it to sound???

JakNaz
I will aid this sly hijacking attempt


No really I always pronounced it

(Soul-oh-mahn-eee)

myself.

I have no idea how Marc Miller intended.
 
Speaking of religion, what if the god of a perticular religion was real? What if something actually exists that people worship as a god? What if say in T20, that "God" or whatever it was was able to grant Clerical Spells that heal people? Maybe this creature is not actually a god, but what if he has telepathic abilities and is able to cause things to happen at a distance within a certain range, his "Clerics" inhabit a TL 2 planet and he is able to establish telepathic contact with them, and whenever they utter a certain phrase, he causes a spell to happen. Now imagine if a scout ship were to encounter such a planet. That's stretching Traveller quite a bit, but I think one could rationalize it.
 
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