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Battleship and Battlerider

Interesting designs but on a quick look I'm not sure you've got the concept quite right.

Battle Ship - A large capital warship capable of jump.

Battle Rider - A smaller warship dependent on a Battle Tender for jump.

In this way, ton for ton a Battle Rider will have more room for weapons, armour, and maneuver, because it doesn't have to devote tonnage to jump drives, and more significantly jump fuel. Cost may be more though, depending on the weapons costing more than the jump drive.

A fair comparison would have to include the Tender in any cost analysis.

Generally a Rider/Tender is going to be about the same cost for a total hull displacement equal to the Battleship. So you might have for example a 300Kton Battle Ship vs a 160K ton Battle Tender with 7 20Kton Battle Riders (the Lurenti and her Nolikians for example)

The Battle Ship will be the bigger hitter and capable of soaking up more damage in a fight. While the Battle Riders will have to rely on their numbers to make up the difference in having generally less of an offensive punch and being more easily rendered mission killed. The Battle Tender is also a combative but is less capable for having so much hull devoted to jump drive and fuel.
 
Like Dan says - a 100kt BR - eek ;)

The BS v BR/T stems from the design constraints of CT HG2:

most systems are % based while spinals are fixed tonnage

a ship may only carry 1 spinal

only spinals can mission kill an enemy ship.

The BR/T set up allows you to do things within a tonnage budget:

carry more spinal mounts

have more (and smaller) hulls that need to be killed

For example - you can build a 200kt BS, that's 1x spinal and 1 hull that needs killing

or you can use that 200kt to build a 100kt tender and 5x 20kt riders.
 
A Monitor!

That's the term I was looking for, for a large non-jump capital warship :)

The third side of the triangle, generally limited to system defense. That's more what your Battle Rider design seems to be.
 
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Well, I could make the battlerider smaller I suppose, but where is the fun in that? I actually did make a mistake with the rider though, I made it an energy weapon platform, where I originally intended it to be a missile platform to back up the PAW- 100td nuke bays would make it a much more dangerous ship since the bays would do nearly the same damage as the PAW.

BTW, does anyone know the reasoning behind if you have a PA spinal you cant have PA bays or barbettes/turrets (or a meson spinal means no meson bays)? It seems a pretty arbitrary rule to me.
 
BTW, does anyone know the reasoning behind if you have a PA spinal you cant have PA bays or barbettes/turrets (or a meson spinal means no meson bays)? It seems a pretty arbitrary rule to me.

It's a game artifact to permit the USP to remain one line. So only one "type" (spinal, bay, turret) of any specific weapon (meson, missile, etc.) is permitted. And all such types must be the same factor as well, so that the batteries line is only one notation.

So yes it is arbitrary, designed for simple expedient game mechanics. Nothing really says you couldn't do it elsewise, as long as you make it clear and know you have to track it all differently.
 
Generally a Rider/Tender is going to be about the same cost for a total hull displacement equal to the Battleship. So you might have for example a 300Kton Battle Ship vs a 160K ton Battle Tender with 7 20Kton Battle Riders (the Lurenti and her Nolikians for example)
A Rider plus its Tender-slice will cost more than the same tonnage of battleship because the Rider part will have much better armor. Look at Shadowdragon's two examples; the rider cost more than half again as much as the ship (Though not from the armor alone, of course).

The fair comparison between a Tender+Riders is the same number of credits worth used to buy the same number of ships. Those seven Nolikans should be put up against seven 40,000T[*] cruisers, not a solitary 300,000T battleship.
[*] Guesstimate.​

And as I recently pointed out in another thread, A Lurenti+7 Nolikans is not a BatRon, it's a CruRon.

Six or eight Lurentis, now, that would be a BatRon.


Hans
 
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The Battle Ship will be the bigger hitter and capable of soaking up more damage in a fight. While the Battle Riders will have to rely on their numbers to make up the difference in having generally less of an offensive punch and being more easily rendered mission killed. The Battle Tender is also a combative but is less capable for having so much hull devoted to jump drive and fuel.

Another thing is that the Battleship's main battery will only be able to engage one Rider at a time.
 
Another thing is that the Battleship's main battery will only be able to engage one Rider at a time.
Which is why the proper comparison is the same number of ships with a total cost equal to the cost of the tender and all its riders.


Hans
 
If you want to keep the cost the same just downsize the tender and the riders.

Fact still remains you will have 1 BS hull and spinal vs 5-6 hulls and 5 spinals.

The BatRon classification could easily be based on the number of spinals/hulls being brought to the battlefield.

A long time ago Oz and I discussed what the combat factors on the counters in FFW and IE actually translate to.

A wild guesstimate is that the attack factor is the number of mission kill capable spinals and the defense factor is number of hulls.
 
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If you want to keep the cost the same just downsize the tender and the riders.
In the case of the 154th, that's not possible, since the riders are already about as small as you can get and still carry a spinal mount. (Not that I quite understand your point here.)

Seven Nolikans are probably capable of defeating a solitary 300,000T battleship. But then, so are seven Gionettis. What's interesting is if seven Nolikans can defeat a squadron of cruisers costing the same as the Nolikans and their Lurenti.

Fact still remains you will have 1 BS hull and spinal vs 5-6 hulls and 5 spinals.
Only if the captain of the battlership is an idiot. He'll run away unless he's backed by several other cruisers or battleships.

The BatRon classification could easily be based on the number of spinals/hulls being brought to the battlefield.
It's not. BatRons are composed of ship capable of standing in the line of battle, i.e. battleships and BIG battleriders. CruRons are composed of ship big enough to carry spinal mounts but too weak to stand in the line of battle, i.e. cruisers and small battleriders. [FS:9]

Seven Nolikans is a BatRon only if they're capable of standing up to their own number of battleships. (And if they were, any state that built a squadron of battleships instead of six or eight Lurentis plus their Nolikans would be complete idiots. Yet we know for a fact that all the major interstellar states in the OTU do build battleships and lots of them.)

Here's a suggestion for someone with the time and enthusiasm for designing ships: Design a squadron of 8 battleriders plus their tenders. Divide the total cost by 8 and design a battleship costing roughly that much. Then match your battlerider squadron with a squadron of 8 of the battleships.


Hans
 
Generally a Rider/Tender is going to be about the same cost for a total hull displacement equal to the Battleship. So you might have for example a 300Kton Battle Ship vs a 160K ton Battle Tender with 7 20Kton Battle Riders (the Lurenti and her Nolikians for example)

I'm affraid the Lurenti is rated 300000 dton. Even if the free tonage (as I guess you pointed here) is 160000, all costs (jump drives, fuel, crew, etc...) are for a 300000 dton ship

The Battle Ship will be the bigger hitter and capable of soaking up more damage in a fight. While the Battle Riders will have to rely on their numbers to make up the difference in having generally less of an offensive punch and being more easily rendered mission killed. The Battle Tender is also a combative but is less capable for having so much hull devoted to jump drive and fuel.

Like Dan says - a 100kt BR - eek ;)

The BS v BR/T stems from the design constraints of CT HG2:

most systems are % based while spinals are fixed tonnage

a ship may only carry 1 spinal

only spinals can mission kill an enemy ship.

The BR/T set up allows you to do things within a tonnage budget:

carry more spinal mounts

have more (and smaller) hulls that need to be killed

For example - you can build a 200kt BS, that's 1x spinal and 1 hull that needs killing

or you can use that 200kt to build a 100kt tender and 5x 20kt riders.

I guess it depends on the version you play, but in CT and MT (the ones I've played), what really makes difference are number of hulls and number of spinals (at least once meson spinals show up).

Once a meson spinal hits you and penetrates, you're dead, doesn't matter if you're a 20k dton BR, a 60k dton cruiser or a 500k dton battleship. Main killer in those versions is 'fuel tanks shattered' on interior explosion table .

In CT, crew hits are also quite lethal, as 4-5 hits take any ship to crew 0 and, though rules don't explicity say that, comon sense says this is a killed ship. Don't forget a meson spinal makes about 10+ rolls on radiation table and same on interior explosion, so crew hits are fairly common.

In MT, de different use of crew his make killing a ship by killing its crew virtually impossible (you'd need 20 hits for the BR, 60 for the cruiser and 500 for the battleship)
 
Only if the captain of the battlership is an idiot. He'll run away unless he's backed by several other cruisers or battleships.

Putting it on the run is a way to defeat it, I think (even if it is intact)...
 
Hans,

The BB running away still means the other guy is in control of the battle space, and your BB is not. Thus it is a victory. And yes, this is the point you were making:

Your point was that that BB captain wouldn't lose the battle to the little ones, he would run away instead. On the one hand the BB captain preserves his ship, on the other hand he fails his mission (unless his mission is an intel job and then why are you using BBs for scout ships?) Mission failure for a BB captain usually entails "reassignment" to more spectacular desk duty and not ship/squadron command. Thus that captain loses his ship.

Is the fleet short a BB from this combat due to the retreat? No. Do you still hold the planet (or gas giant, or asteroid belt, or whatever made this important enough a spot to fight in) that the fight was over? No. Do you now need to scrape together enough of a fleet to retake the spot? Probably, depends on its strategic importance. Since it had a BB for defense it is pretty important.


All that aside, I agree it would be better to compare the BT/BR combo that results from the cost of a BB, or vise versa. It would give a better cost/benefit analysis.
 
Your point was that that BB captain wouldn't lose the battle to the little ones, he would run away instead. On the one hand the BB captain preserves his ship, on the other hand he fails his mission (unless his mission is an intel job and then why are you using BBs for scout ships?) Mission failure for a BB captain usually entails "reassignment" to more spectacular desk duty and not ship/squadron command. Thus that captain loses his ship.
No, my point was that the proper comparison to a battletender/rider combo is the same number of ships with a total cost equal to the cost of the tender and all its riders. You get the exact same tactical dilemma if our lone battleship is faced with a squadron of cruisers. It's not a one tender vs. one battleship problem. It's a many smaller spinals vs. one big spinal problem. And the answer is the same in both cases.

The time of choice between battletenders and cruisers lies a lot earlier than the tactical situation you posit. It lies back when the Admiralty decides between buying one tender+riders or a squadron of cruisers or a single battleship. If that choice eventually leads to a lone battleship facing a squadron of riders, then it has a problem. But it would have the same problem if it was faced with a squadron of cruisers. And the solution is either to run away or to dig in and die gallantly, inflicting as much damage as it can in the process. But that choice is the same whether it is facing riders or cruisers.


Hans
 
Long Post Warning!

I just ran a complete analysis of this issue, using the HGS 1.14 and TCS software (thanks, Andrew!).

I build a squadron of maxed out BRs (f-T spinals, armor-15, computer-9, agility-6, screens-9, etc) optimized for HG combat (maximum f-9 missile batteries for secondary armament, with 1 f-9 battery each of all other weapons), on as small a hull as possible. I also built a jump-3 BT to carry a squadron of 8 of these BRs. I then build similar ships with all specs the same as the BRs, except where I specify differently:

BR - MCr20,057.224, 25000 dtons, f-15 armor, f-T spinal, 13 missile batteries.
BB - MCr138,632.472 ,181000 dtons, f-15 armor, f-T spinal, 169 missiles batteries.
CR - MCr61,591.424 ,88000 dtons, f-11 armor, f-R spinal, 78 missile batteries.
CM - MCr19,867.512 ,30000 dtons, f-4 armor, f-N spinal, 23 missile batteries.
CL - MCr15,223.136 ,22000 dtons, f-4 armor, f-J spinal, 16 missile batteries.

(Note: f-11 armor will prevent maneuver hits from the surface explosions table, f-4 armor will prevent Internal Explosions from the surface explosions table)

I then assembled squadrons of ships that matched the BR squadron for price, including the 366000 dton BT (MCr98,750.896) in the cost of the BR squadron. This is where Andrew's TCS software came in really handy (thanks again, Andrew!). Here's what I ended up with:

BR squadron - MCr290,395.820 , 8 BRs, 1 BT, 8 factor-T spinals, 96 missile batteries.
BB squadron - MCr313,655.968 , 2 BBs, 2 factor-T spinals, 338 missile batteries.
CR squadron - MCr324,124.869 , 5 CRs, 5 factor-R spinals, 390 missile batteries.
CM squadron - MCr283,360.390 , 14 CMs, 14 factor-N spinals, 322 missile batteries.
CL squadron - MCr293,235.657 , 19 CLs, 19 factor-J spinals, 304 missile batteries.

I then used an Excel spreadsheet (of my own creation) to see how well these ships could hit each other. Here's the results:
Code:
Meson Gun Hits per squadron per round	
	
BR vs BB,CR	2.69
BR vs CM, CL	1.80
BB vs. BR	0.45
CR vs. BR	0.97
CM vs BR	2.08
CL vs BR	1.22

Missile hits per salvo	
	
BR vs BB,CR	11.56
BR vs CM, CL	9.33
BB vs. BR	32.87
CR vs. BR	37.92
CM vs BR	31.31
CL vs BR	29.56

All shots at long range, so the missiles have something of an advantage.

We can see that the BBs and CRs don't stand much of a chance in the meson gun fight; the BRs have equal or better firepower and more shots per round, giving twice the hits per salvo. Against the cruiser squadrons the weight of numbers will overpower the BRs, even if they can almost trade shot for shot with the CMs and actually outgun the CLs.

The missile battle is harder to judge. Against the BBs and CM, where the armor is almost equal, the weight of the BB/CM salvos should prevail, if there were no meson gun fire from the BRs, with that thrown into the mix I don't think the BBs or CMs can win, as every BR meson gun that hits takes out a huge chunk of the BB/CM missiles.

It's the missile exchange between the lighter cruisers and the BRs that is harder to evaluate. The cruisers will get almost 3 times as many hits per missile salvo, and their meson guns will be killing the BRs missiles faster than the BRs meson guns will kill the cruiser's missiles, but the BR's missiles will be doing a lot more damage to the cruisers than vice versa, thanks to the much lighter armor of the smaller cruisers. However, I don't think that the 9 missile hits per salvo that the BRs can score will even up the mismatch between the two squadrons meson guns.

So, overall evaluation?

In strict HG rules, building large ships is a waste of men and money (big surprise, right?). What remains to be determined is whether a fleet centered around small, jump-capable factor-J meson cruisers is better than a fleet centered around even smaller, f-J spinal meson riders and their battle tenders.
 
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I just ran a complete analysis of this issue, using the HGS 1.14 and TCS software (thanks, Andrew!).
Well done!

I build a squadron of maxed out BRs (f-T spinals, armor-15, computer-9, agility-6, screens-9, etc) optimized for HG combat (maximum f-9 missile batteries for secondary armament, with 1 f-9 battery each of all other weapons), on as small a hull as possible. I also built a jump-3 BT to carry a squadron of 8 of these BRs. I then build similar ships with all specs the same as the BRs, except where I specify differently:

BR - MCr20,057.224, 25000 dtons, f-15 armor, f-T spinal, 13 missile batteries.
BB - MCr138,632.472 ,181000 dtons, f-15 armor, f-T spinal, 169 missiles batteries.
CR - MCr61,591.424 ,88000 dtons, f-11 armor, f-R spinal, 78 missile batteries.
CM - MCr19,867.512 ,30000 dtons, f-4 armor, f-N spinal, 23 missile batteries.
CL - MCr15,223.136 ,22000 dtons, f-4 armor, f-J spinal, 16 missile batteries.
Couple of questions/comments.

I'm surprised you were able to fit a f-T spinal into a 25,000T hull.

How come the heavy cruisers costs so much more than a rider+ 1/8th of a tender? It's MCr61,500 vs. MCr32,500, yet the cruisers have smaller spinals and less armor. The combined tonnage of 8 heavy cruisers is 704,000T; 8 riders plus the tender comes to 566,000T.

In strict HG rules, building large ships is a waste of men and money (big surprise, right?).
Right. That discrepancy between ship combat rules and setting has been known for decades.


Hans
 
I've never had the time nor inclination to run an analysis like Oz just did, but I'm curious about how the spinal restriction affects the design advantages.
IMTU, multiple spinal guns are allowed, though they must be identical and in a gatling or janus configuration, or both. ie they can only engage one target per turn (you'd have to be pretty lucky to have 2 targets at exactly 180 degrees to use both ends of a janus gun simultaneously - which renders the janus mount pretty pointless IMO).
Would multi-spinal battleships regain an advantage over riders?
 
About a year ago (before the earth swallowed up large portions of the city and life got a little hectic) I posted a fairly in depth analysis of the whole BR vs BB thing. The results were interesting. There is a fairly huge flaw in the BR concept as portrayed in canon, but its probably not what most people would think of. The flaw is building tenders carrying multiple riders. The better option is one rider per tender.

I've reposted the my analysis (it was in two messages) below. The raw files and the spreadsheet with the detailed analysis are on the ct-starships site.

********************************

I'd always thought this was an open and shut thing, but I've been playing a few
TCS campaigns lately and some doubts had been creeping into my mind. To cut a
long story short, while it was fairly obvious that the rider was almost always
cheaper than the ship, there was another factor at play. Namely how much of your
budget you can spend on capital ship. So I decided to do a proper analysis and
see. I've uploaded the results. They are interesting I think.

I made the following assumptions.
A navy can spend 35% of its budget on capital ships. However riders require
extra escorts to cover them if they need to withdraw, so you can only spend 30%
on riders to cover this. Also a navy has to spend about 25% of its budget on
cruisers, but when the size of a capital ship drops to 70,000Td or less, the
cruiser and capital ship start to overlap. Therefore when this happens, the navy
can spend 50% of its budget on capital ships (dropping to 45% for riders).

There are two fleets High end and Low end. High end have armour 11 and agility
6. Low end have armour 4 and agility 5. All carry the biggest spinal meson
available.

I also included a hybrid design, a fleet tender carrying a jump 1 capable rider,
allowing it to cover its own tenders if the fleet has to withdraw.

Rather than use an abstract budget to determine affordability, I have created two theoretical states.

State One
world 1 - Industrial, 20 Billion pop at max tech level with A starport
world 2 - 5 Billion pop at tech level -1 with A starport
World 3 - 5 Billion pop at tech level -1 with B starport
Misc worlds - 1 Billion pop at tech level -2 with C starport
This represents a multiworld pocket empire who's influence would be felt sector wide

State Two
Single world - Rich, 800 Million pop at max tech level
This represents a powerful minor world who's influence would be felt subsector wide.

Looking at my adjusted results, it would seem the low end battlehip is about the
best investment at jump 3 and below, and gives the riders a good run at jump 4
(and the high end jump 4 battleship is just plain unaffordable for any state
other than the Imperium, Zhodani, Solomani Confederation etc).

I'm planning to expand and look at lower tech levels.

*****************************************

Well I've finally finished my attempted analysis. Its interesting. First thing
that jumps out is the utter pointlessness of the multi rider tenders. There
advantages are just too slight to compensate for their disadvantages (basically
blow up and strand an entire squadron). It would seem that every single major
power in Traveller has based its fleets on a faulty premise :).

Next thing that hit me was the futility of high end/high jump battleships. They
are just too expensive (at TL15 you can get six times as many jump 4 high end
riders as ships). However, interestingly, at the low end, the battleship very
rapidly becomes an attractive option. At TL15 jump 3 you get 2182 ships to 2117
riders.

As expected, the advantages of the rider drops off rapidly as jump numbers and
TL's drop. When you hit the jump 2-3 range, the ships tend to become the better
option.
 
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