Battleship and Battlerider

[Orr]

Enough said...

Let's see...

You've been quoting laughable historical examples in regards to a wargame you admit you've never read or use. It seems that you've said more than enough. :rofl:

Apart from your idiotic claims about the pursuit of the Bismarck, a ship whose name you couldn't even spell correctly, your reference to battleship losses during "the invasion of the Philippines" actually occurred during the First and Second Naval Battles of Guadalcanal which happened two years before and two thousand miles away from the events you mentioned.

When you can begin to present actual historical examples, instead of the soft-headed rubbish you've been posting, about a wargame you've bothered to actually read or play please get back to us. Until then, please keep you ill-informed idiocy to yourself.

 

[mike wightman]

Just a little math...

A BB with a T PA will hit a 19k ton BR on a 6 (72% of a hit), doing 1 critical and 4 rolls on each of the Surface and Radiation (Which boils down to about 3 weapon hits). With a 1/3 chance for a mission kill from the critical (Depending on the setup of the BR. I am assuming they have Frozen Watches and extra computers), that results in about 4.2 shots per mission kill.

The BR needs a 8 to hit the BB with it's J Meson, a 9 to penetrate the Screen, then a 6 to penetrate the Configuration for a total of 8.4% chance to do damage (And 70% to get a fuel tanks shattered result. Including the mission kill criticals, each shot that does damage has a 87.3% chance to mission kill the ship. If it doesn't mission kill the ship, it will send it to reserves to repair for a couple turns likely). Roughly 12 shots per damaging hit, 13.6 shots for a mission kill.

If the Battleship had a T Meson, it would need a 10 to hit, 5 and then 3 to pen..13.5% chance to get a kill. Roughly 7.5 shots per kill.

If one empire uses J meson 19k ton riders, and the other uses T-PA BB's, the one with the Battleships will likely have an advantage. It's a game of rock paper scissors. The BB's with the T-Mesons also stand a chance, but likely the BR force will outnumber them 2-1, rendering thier advantage less. The T-PA has a 3-1 kill ratio.

For what it's worth, every 20 Nuclear missiles against a BB will do some damage, and it takes 35 Missiles to do damage to the BR. (Assuming Factor-9)

Granted, all the math on the spinals is thrown out the window if you use bigger Riders with T or N guns. When I design a fleet, I make sure I use a mix of bigger riders, with some carrying the T PA as well.


One advantage the wasn't listed for BB's over BR's is the pilot limitation. Most systems limit the total number of pilots in a force, and the BB uses half as many pilots as a BR plus Jump Shuttle. Granted, this also encourages Multi-Rider Tenders.

A 19kt rider can easily carry a #N meson gun - have to check my design file I may have been able to get a #R into 19kt.

 

[rancke]

A BB with a T PA will hit a 19k ton BR on a 6 (72% of a hit), doing 1 critical and 4 rolls on each of the Surface and Radiation (Which boils down to about 3 weapon hits). With a 1/3 chance for a mission kill from the critical (Depending on the setup of the BR. I am assuming they have Frozen Watches and extra computers), that results in about 4.2 shots per mission kill.

So the battleship takes 4 combat rounds to eliminate one rider? How many shots does the battleriders and the five or six or seven other battleriders that can be bought for the same amount of money to build that one battleship get to fire at the battleship in that time?

It's not a matter of one battleship vs. one battlerider/cruiser. It's a matter of one battleship vs. its own cost in battleriders/cruisers.

Granted, all the math on the spinals is thrown out the window if you use bigger Riders with T or N guns. When I design a fleet, I make sure I use a mix of bigger riders, with some carrying the T PA as well.

The people who are still building battleships by the Classic Era have had a century to figure that out. Or four, if the same trend applies at TL14.

One advantage the wasn't listed for BB's over BR's is the pilot limitation. Most systems limit the total number of pilots in a force, and the BB uses half as many pilots as a BR plus Jump Shuttle. Granted, this also encourages Multi-Rider Tenders.

What system limits the number of pilots available? There was a limit in connection with the TCS tournaments, but that's as artificial as requiring two armies to have the same point value. If you have 15 trillion subjects, you can find enough suitable candidates to train all the pilots you'll ever need.


Hans

 

[skyth]

So the battleship takes 4 combat rounds to eliminate one rider? How many shots does the battleriders and the five or six or seven other battleriders that can be bought for the same amount of money to build that one battleship get to fire at the battleship in that time?

It's not a matter of one battleship vs. one battlerider/cruiser. It's a matter of one battleship vs. its own cost in battleriders/cruisers.

And if you go back and read my post, I did mention that.

What system limits the number of pilots available? There was a limit in connection with the TCS tournaments, but that's as artificial as requiring two armies to have the same point value. If you have 15 trillion subjects, you can find enough suitable candidates to train all the pilots you'll ever need.

TCS tourneys limit pilots. Also, as pilots are the hardest branch to get into in the Navy, it is likely that there is a limited supply. The hgher the population you are dealing with (IE the more potential pilots), the more ships you have as well. It is not an inconsequential concern.

 

[skyth]

A 19kt rider can easily carry a #N meson gun - have to check my design file I may have been able to get a #R into 19kt.

True. I forgot that I was sticking J guns on, I believe, 7k or 8k riders when I wrote that. Those suffer even worse from PA's though.

 

[AndreaV]

Just a little math...

A BB with a T PA will hit a 19k ton BR on a 6 (72% of a hit), doing 1 critical and 4 rolls on each of the Surface and Radiation (Which boils down to about 3 weapon hits). With a 1/3 chance for a mission kill from the critical (Depending on the setup of the BR. I am assuming they have Frozen Watches and extra computers), that results in about 4.2 shots per mission kill.

You're sums are a little off. Firstly the chance of the T PAs single critical mission killing in 5 in 36 (assuming backup bridge, computer and a frozen watch). So the T PA scores one critical per hit giving it a 10% chance of a mission kill per hit. However the J meson will score a fuel tank shattered every time it hits, so its chance of a mission kill is equal to its chance to hit and penetrate (8.4%). And you'll have a lot more J mesons firing for every T PA.

 

[AndreaV]

And if you go back and read my post, I did mention that.

Well you can get (assuming J4 capacity and factor 11 armour) 6 times as many T armed riders as T armed ships. And while I haven't done the sums, I think you'll find you can get somewhat more J armed riders for the cost of one T armed ship.

TCS tourneys limit pilots. Also, as pilots are the hardest branch to get into in the Navy, it is likely that there is a limited supply. The hgher the population you are dealing with (IE the more potential pilots), the more ships you have as well. It is not an inconsequential concern.

When the population hits into the hundreds of millions (let alone billions) this limit is inconsequential unless there is some HUGELY rare factor (read psi ability) required to pilot a ship.

 

[rancke]

And if you go back and read my post, I did mention that.

You implied that the difference would be about 2:1. I think the difference would be a lot more than that. The exact figure will depend on just how big a battleship you're talking about; to be conservative, I usually talk of 6:1 or 8:1, but if the battleship is a Tigress, we're talking 10:1 or 12:1.

TCS tourneys limit pilots.

So nothing to do with the Imperium then.

Also, as pilots are the hardest branch to get into in the Navy, it is likely that there is a limited supply.

Does not follow and is not at all likely. Pilots aren't supermen.

The higher the population you are dealing with (IE the more potential pilots), the more ships you have as well. It is not an inconsequential concern.

The Imperium is said to have 20,000 combat vessels (or possibly 28,000). If every single one of them was a Tigress, you'd need six million pilots. To get that out of a population of 15 trillion, you need to find one potential pilot in every 2.5 million people. OK, you'll need more than that to keep six million piloting slots filled, so let's say you need five times as many. That's still one potential pilot out of every 500,000 you need.

And, of course, those 20,000 combat vessels are not all of them carrying 300 fighters.


Hans

 

[skyth]

You're sums are a little off. Firstly the chance of the T PAs single critical mission killing in 5 in 36 (assuming backup bridge, computer and a frozen watch). So the T PA scores one critical per hit giving it a 10% chance of a mission kill per hit. However the J meson will score a fuel tank shattered every time it hits, so its chance of a mission kill is equal to its chance to hit and penetrate (8.4%). And you'll have a lot more J mesons firing for every T PA.

I didn't assume back up bridge. Those are too big to be worthwhile. Mission kill crit is Ship vaporized, Bridge Destroyed, M Drive destroyed, Power Plant Disabled, and Spinal Mount out. A total of 12 chances out of 36, so 1/3.

And no, a J meson does not automatically shatter the fuel tanks with every hit. It has ten 1/9 chances to do so. The math on that is 70% likely.

 

[skyth]

Well you can get (assuming J4 capacity and factor 11 armour) 6 times as many T armed riders as T armed ships. And while I haven't done the sums, I think you'll find you can get somewhat more J armed riders for the cost of one T armed ship.

Are you including the costs of the tenders in that?

 

[skyth]

The Imperium is said to have 20,000 combat vessels (or possibly 28,000). If every single one of them was a Tigress, you'd need six million pilots. To get that out of a population of 15 trillion, you need to find one potential pilot in every 2.5 million people. OK, you'll need more than that to keep six million piloting slots filled, so let's say you need five times as many. That's still one potential pilot out of every 500,000 you need.

And, of course, those 20,000 combat vessels are not all of them carrying 300 fighters.

In a Battle Rider universe, those 20,000 combat vessels each carry 6 Battle Riders. However, that number of 20-28,000 is unrealistic in the face of the TCS campaign rules, and likely doesn't include all the support vessels, small patrol ships, etc.

 

[pendragonman]

You implied that the difference would be about 2:1. I think the difference would be a lot more than that. The exact figure will depend on just how big a battleship you're talking about; to be conservative, I usually talk of 6:1 or 8:1, but if the battleship is a Tigress, we're talking 10:1 or 12:1.


So nothing to do with the Imperium then.


Does not follow and is not at all likely. Pilots aren't supermen.


The Imperium is said to have 20,000 combat vessels (or possibly 28,000). If every single one of them was a Tigress, you'd need six million pilots. To get that out of a population of 15 trillion, you need to find one potential pilot in every 2.5 million people. OK, you'll need more than that to keep six million piloting slots filled, so let's say you need five times as many. That's still one potential pilot out of every 500,000 you need.

And, of course, those 20,000 combat vessels are not all of them carrying 300 fighters.


Hans

Hans,

Fighters are small craft. You use small craft skill to pilot them. I suppose you could use pilot skill, but why then would there be a small craft skill?

So your overall pilot need is smaller and thus your pop/pilot ratio is bigger.

Sorry

 

[AndreaV]

I didn't assume back up bridge. Those are too big to be worthwhile. Mission kill crit is Ship vaporized, Bridge Destroyed, M Drive destroyed, Power Plant Disabled, and Spinal Mount out. A total of 12 chances out of 36, so 1/3.

And no, a J meson does not automatically shatter the fuel tanks with every hit. It has ten 1/9 chances to do so. The math on that is 70% likely.

Backup bridge is 2% and fairly minor cost. Given the consequences of its loss, its pretty damn worthwhile. Plus neither spinal mount out nor Mdrive are mission kills. With spinal mount out it can still fire missiles (a respectable enough threat to warrant it as a target) and Mdrive just means its an easy kill next round. To mission kill you need to take the ship out entirely.

And yes the J meson does guarantee a kill every hit, check the rules for statistical combat resolution in TCS.

 

[AndreaV]

Are you including the costs of the tenders in that?

Yep, scary isn't it

 

[skyth]

Backup bridge is 2% and fairly minor cost. Given the consequences of its loss, its pretty damn worthwhile. Plus neither spinal mount out nor Mdrive are mission kills. With spinal mount out it can still fire missiles (a respectable enough threat to warrant it as a target) and Mdrive just means its an easy kill next round. To mission kill you need to take the ship out entirely.

Without a spinal, a ship is not a threat. That is an effective mission kill. With the M drive out, that means the ship might as well be dead as well. Not sure how it could keep up in the fight anyways.

And yes the J meson does guarantee a kill every hit, check the rules for statistical combat resolution in TCS.

Irrelevant. I was going by the actual statistics of things happening. Besides, if memory serves, the statistical combat resolution is only used for large number of die rolls (And by large, that means >35). 10 rolls is not in that range as far as I'm concerned.

 

[rancke]

In a Battle Rider universe, those 20,000 combat vessels each carry 6 Battle Riders.

So a lot fewer pilots needed.

However, that number of 20-28,000 is unrealistic in the face of the TCS campaign rules

The TCS campaign rules don't cover the Imperium. They cover small pocket empires situated a few parsecs from each other. The Imperium is a huge interstellar empire covering room enough for thousands of TCS sized pocket empires.

...and likely doesn't include all the support vessels, small patrol ships, etc.

That's quite true. The figure expressly only covers cruisers, battlehips, tenders, carriers, and the like. Auxiliaries are not included and there's almost no evidence as to how many auxiliaries there are.


Hans

 

[skyth]

The TCS campaign rules don't cover the Imperium. They cover small pocket empires situated a few parsecs from each other. The Imperium is a huge interstellar empire covering room enough for thousands of TCS sized pocket empires.

Thus my point that the number is unrealistic. The actual number of ships should be MUCH higher. TCS campaign rules usually deal with one subsector at most, and there are more than 10 ships per empire. Thousands of of TCS pocket empires times the hundreds of ships you'll see in each empire leads to a lot more than the 20,000 ships you were talking about.

That's quite true. The figure expressly only covers cruisers, battlehips, tenders, carriers, and the like. Auxiliaries are not included and there's almost no evidence as to how many auxiliaries there are.

However, these auxillaries also use pilots. In 'reality' you are talking about quite a few more pilots than you think you are talking about.

This is all besides the fact that Battleships DO have an advantage in the number of pilots that they need. How significant an advantage that this is has no bearing on the fact that it IS an advantage.

 

[rancke]

Thus my point that the number is unrealistic. The actual number of ships should be MUCH higher. TCS campaign rules usually deal with one subsector at most, and there are more than 10 ships per empire. Thousands of of TCS pocket empires times the hundreds of ships you'll see in each empire leads to a lot more than the 20,000 ships you were talking about.

It is a bit lower than I'd prefer myself, but it can be justified by various assumptions. One is that a small pocket empire surrounded by other hostile pocket empires would be in a state of perpetual tension even during peacetime, which would lead them to peacetime spending of an average of around 10% of GWP, whereas Imperial worlds are said to average 3% in their military spending. 30% of those 3% goes to the Imperial Navy. That reduces the numbers by a factor 10. Then one can assume that logistics (and waste) costs more for a navy covering 10,000 systems than for one covering a mainworld and a couple of colonies. So instead of ships equalling 10 times the yearly budget, the Imperial Navy may only have ships equalling 5 times its yearly budget.

However, these auxillaries also use pilots. In 'reality' you are talking about quite a few more pilots than you think you are talking about.

More than one per combat vessel, yes. But not 300 times more. And I already showed that you can easily recruit enough pilots to cover 6,000,000 pilot positions.

This is all besides the fact that Battleships DO have an advantage in the number of pilots that they need. How significant an advantage that this is has no bearing on the fact that it IS an advantage.

How significant the advantage is is quite important. Does it outweigh a six to one discrepancy in combat effectivness per credit? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.


Hans


PS. Upon reflection, I think "thousands of pocket empires" was an exaggeration. How many pocket empires are there in the sample campaign? 3 or 3½ per subsector, IIRC. And the Imperium covers round about 300 subsectors. So call it room enough for 700 pocket empires.

 

[skyth]

Some thoughts to ponder...In order to get someone into the Flight department of the Imperial Navy, there are basically two ways (I am ignoring the option of social 9+ choice)...University to Flight school or Naval Academy through flight school.

Of the people who WANT to be in the Imperial Navy flight branch, only 1 in 2000 actually make it to the Flight branch through University and 1 in 4000 make it through the Naval academy.

Granted, the Social-9+ route it the easiest way...Of the people that want to go that way, 1 in 24 will qualify, make it into the Imperial Navy, and get pilot skill. However, a lot fewer of those will want to enlist in the Navy so I am ignoring it. Now you have the small portion of the population that wants to both enlist in the Imperial Navy AND the flight Branch...(Say 1 in 500 people), you need 1,000,000 people per pilot.

Of course, I am ignoring the people that retire, don't survive (negligible there) or fail the re-enlist roll. Assuming that someone only goes for 5 terms in the navy (1/4 their life), you need 4,000,000 population per pilot, or 12,000,000 population per large ship. This doesn't include pilots on training duty, etc (About 50% of the number according to High Guard), so make that 18 Million per large ship.

A Battle Rider plus jump shuttle with a frozen watch requires 54,000,000 people to provide the pilots. At a 2-1 ratio (Combat effectiveness) that's 108 Million people. A Battleship with a frozen watch only requires 36 Million to support the pilot requirement.

Now 15 trillion people supports a navy of up to 75 quadrillion credits worth.

Those 15 trillion people will provide enough pilots to handle 416,667 large ships with an average cost of 180,000 MCr each. Your average Battle Rider plus jump shuttle is less than 180,000 MCr (Significantly less most likely), but your average Battleship is more. Battle Riders plus Jump Shuttles require more pilots to achieve the same kill ratio as Battleships, and Pilot numbers are a truely limiting effect.

 

[whartung]

Granted, the Social-9+ route it the easiest way.

Actually, drafting them, showing up to their house with other men with guns and then screening that population is the easiest route. It certainly helps address a multitude of personnel issues, but it naturally depends on that the government policies at the time.