Battleship and Battlerider

[E.D.Quibell]

There is no hard requirement to be an Officer to be in the Flight branch, it's just that Enlisted have to jump through hoops to get into it (Either by having someone put in a word for you or by cross training).

Agreed.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

There is nothing to limit the choice of the SOC 9+ person. There is no limit to which branch you chose ... unless you are in the resurves or the planetary (can't choise technical).

The point is that there is no limit that prevents a Soc 9+ in a planetary navy from joining Technical Services any more than there is one that prevents him from joining Flight Branch. Unless you interpret the free choice to be a free choice of the available choices. And Flight Branch is not an available choice for enlisted men. Look at the list: Technical Services, Crew, Crew, Enigneering, Engineering, Gunnery, Gunnery, and Medical. No Flight Branch.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The basic chargen is also part of the OTU and in it enlisted naval personnel can get pilot skill. More evidence unless you're stating a position that advanced chargen completely supersedes basic chargen in all cases and that basic chargen is no longer OTU....

Basic is even more simplified than Advanced. It must either be assumed that Basic and Advanced applies to two different Imperial Navies or that the results of at least one of the two systems are skewed away from "reality". I assume that both have their discrepancies.

By the RAW, technical branch is only available to Imperial forces, and that "... It is not possible to transfer between the System Squadron, the Reserve Fleet, and the Imperial Navy" (MT,pg53). The Imperial navy provides some training and support to those smaller forces, but that does not automatically mean that members of the smaller forces may cross over to the Imperial Navy.

Exactly my point. Despite the explicitly stated fact that it isn't possible to transfer between different navies (strange that, BTW, but that's another discussion), the rules as written allow anyone to cross-train in any branch. 'Any branch' includes Technical Service... and Flight Branch.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

See my reply to Skyth. Either "any branch desired" includes Technical Service in non-IN navies or it does not actually mean ANY branch desired but "any available branch desired". One or the other. Personally I go for not being able to choose Technical Service in navies that don't have one. And enlisted men not being able to choose Flight Branch. Enlisted men can enlist in Crew, Engineering, Gunnery, and Medical, plus Technical Service in the IN. If their Soc is 9+ they can choose between the available options; if not, they're assigned by the selection board as represented by one die.

Agreed on the "any available branch desired" interpritation due to the Techincal Services/Imperial Navy issue, however disgree on that then limiting personel in Flight Branch. There is nothing limiting the type of person entering flight branch ... in any Navy.

True about Line/Crew being the same. But there remains the Technical Services. The rule for cross-training states that "The character may roll once on the branch skills table in any other branch." [HG:5] It doesn't say that "any" only refer to available branches, but that's a pretty obvious limitation. However, it doesn't say so. So the fact that it doesn't say that enlisted men can't cross-train in Flight Branch either is evidence that they can, but not proof.

I agree with you that the table in HG is misleading and can thus be missinterprested, especially due to the Techincal Services/Imperial Navy issue, however I still come back to no specific limitations for flight branch. And there are none in the rules.

The in Enhanced CG in MT the cross training rule has no table. It just says:

"Cross-Training: Select any branch; the individual is now cross-trained in it. Roll for one skill on that branch table." RM page 55

Neatly removing the Techincal Services/Imperial Navy issue (no table and not available in resurve or planetary navies), and still allowing enlisted men into flight branch.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[skyth]

The point is that there is no limit that prevents a Soc 9+ in a planetary navy from joining Technical Services any more than there is one that prevents him from joining Flight Branch.

Actually, there is. Technical Service is expressly Imperial only. There is nothing in the rules that prevent Enlisted from joining Flight Branch.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

The point is that there is no limit that prevents a Soc 9+ in a planetary navy from joining Technical Services any more than there is one that prevents him from joining Flight Branch. Unless you interpret the free choice to be a free choice of the available choices. And Flight Branch is not an available choice for enlisted men. Look at the list: Technical Services, Crew, Crew, Enigneering, Engineering, Gunnery, Gunnery, and Medical. No Flight Branch.

Hans

Navies and branches are distinct. The confusion is the Technical Branch/Imperial Navy, and I'm happy that it should be an "available" choise.

So to get over the Technical Branch/Imperial Navy branch/navy issue lets ignore the Imperial Navy, and move down a notch or two.

In the resurevse or the planetary, there is nothing limiting enlisted men with SOC 9+ from choising flight. They can't roll it in their first term (as per the table), but that is the branch assigments table which is only used when first enlisted (or commisend). I'll agree that Enlisted men can't be assigned to flight in their first term, however they can cross train into it and they can _choise_ it if they have SOC 9+. There is nothing limiting them in the rules, as written, from being in flight branch.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Actually, there is. Technical Service is expressly Imperial only. There is nothing in the rules that prevent Enlisted from joining Flight Branch.

Hans dose have a point about the Technical Service/Imperial Navy issue, and that the choise of a SOC 9+ individual should be an "available choise", so a planetry navy person can't choise technical services.

However, and this is where we agree, that logic doesn't limit an enlisted SOC 9+ individual from chosing flight.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[Ishmael]

Exactly my point. Despite the explicitly stated fact that it isn't possible to transfer between different navies (strange that, BTW, but that's another discussion), the rules as written allow anyone to cross-train in any branch. 'Any branch' includes Technical Service... and Flight Branch.

Its completely possible to train with another unit without being allowed to transfer to that unit. Consider Marine pilots* that train and resolve their chargen with the navy rules despite remaining marines. Non-Imperial cross training with the Imperial technical branch is no different.
The allowed cross-training with imperial forces is how the imperium offers training and support to system and reserve fleets. I see nothing contradictory about this.

Personally, I'd use 'flight school' and 'flight branch' for combat oriented small craft training ( fighter pilots, for example ) with skills centered along those lines....ship's boat, fleet tactics, weapons and sensor ops. Put 'pilot' in the line/crew branch where personnel that operate and maintain large ships can get at it....but that's me.

*Since when do Marine pilots steer large [jump]ships? They don't imtu. Imtu, they 'fly' dropships, and ground support craft. So why would they be resolved in a branch that caters to helmsmen of battleships ( aka pilot skill )?

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Its completely possible to train with another unit without being allowed to transfer to that unit. Consider Marine pilots* that train and resolve their chargen with the navy rules despite remaining marines. Non-Imperial cross training with the Imperial technical branch is no different.
The allowed cross-training with imperial forces is how the imperium offers training and support to system and reserve fleets. I see nothing contradictory about this.

I hadn't thought about it like this, and I can completly see your point. And if you so wished I can "evidence" this form the rules (or interuperate if you wish).

Highguard Technical Branch skills on page 8 allows for a number of DMs, +0 for Planetary Navy, +1 for Subsector Navy, and +2 for Imperial Navy.

Why would you need DMs for Planetary or Subsector Navies, in a branch they can't enter? Becasue they can cross train in it!

Many thanks and best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Its completely possible to train with another unit without being allowed to transfer to that unit.

I agree that this ought to be possible. But according to the rules as written this is not actually the case. If you cross-train, you can transfer. The rule expressly says so. Logically, it shouldn't be possible to transfer to a branch that isn't available in your navy, but the rule nevertheless specifically states that you can do precisely that. You have to exercise referee's fiat to disallow it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I don't think we're going to get any further along this line of reasoning. Getting back to the original discussion, I'll say that even if Flight Branch has a few enlisted men, and even if some of them did manage to gain Pilot skill, there's no reason to think that they'd be allowed to pilot starships or fighters. Certainly not without being promoted to officer first.


Hans

 

[Rigel Stardin]

The real question here is: do pilots push buttons or control the entire flight operations of a starship including navagation (normal and Jump space),and operational command (telling subornates during flight what to do.)

Any military can train a person to push in the right buttons order in a matter of months.

Officers go through an exstensive period of training dealing with Leadership and Tactic along with their technical feild (in this case piloting skills). Which isn't necessary if they are not expected to lead later on in their carreer.

The example given in this post about real world helmsman seems valid in my eyes because Officers are there to lead men in their duties. If you have a mutitude of Officers stuck at a low rank because that is where the Imperium want you, there is no chance for advance. Leading alot of disgruntal pilots to become frieghter jockeys because their would be no reward in the military...

 

[Ishmael]

I interpret the transfer rule as being allowed to transfer to a branch within your navy, if available, but not to transfer to another navy just to be in that branch. Someone who gets special duty;cross-training in the technical branch is temporarily assigned to the imperial navy, then returns to their own once their assignment is up. They might get special training again and get technical branch again, though. I don't see how the rules 'expressly allows' someone to jump navies.... quite the opposite, actually.
But we definately have different interpretations to this.

So what do all those enlisted pilots/ship's_boat guys do if they can't fly combat missions?
Or is it a prestige machismo thing despite the fact that fighters' relevance in a battle is questionable...

if the difference between ship's_boat and pilot skill is related to jump drives only, then why not have battle riders 'flown' with ship's_boat skill? If the difference is size related with different controls, etc., then why have pilot_skill guys fly fighters?

 

[rancke]

I interpret the transfer rule as being allowed to transfer to a branch within your navy, if available, but not to transfer to another navy just to be in that branch.

So do I. The point is that an interpretation is necessary and that the reasonable interpretation goes against the literal text. The rule specifically states that you can cross-train in any branch and that having cross-trained you can transfer to that branch.

Someone who gets special duty;cross-training in the technical branch is temporarily assigned to the Imperial Navy, then returns to their own once their assignment is up. They might get special training again and get technical branch again, though. I don't see how the rules 'expressly allows' someone to jump navies.... quite the opposite, actually.

It doesn't expressly allow you to jump navies. That's your interpretation. But it does expressly allow them to transfer to the new branch. I already quoted the line in one of my posts above. I'll quote the whole paragraph if you like:

SPECIAL DUTY
[...]
For Enlisted Personnel and Petty Officers
1. Cross-Training: The character may roll once on the branch skills table in any other branch. He or she further notes the fact of cross-training in that branch. An individual crosstrained in a branch may re-enlist in that branch at the conclusion of a four-year term, providing the re-enlistment throw is made.

You and I, being reasonable people, say "That can't be true in the case of Technical Branch in planetary and subsector navies", and so we ignore the rule in such cases. But we have to ignore the rule, because it does not specifiy any such exception.

So what do all those enlisted pilots/ship's_boat guys do if they can't fly combat missions?

All what enlisted guys? Even if Ewan is right, there still isn't going to be many of them, is there? Only a handful of high-society types who elected to become enlisted men instead of officers and another handful of people who cross-trained and transferred. How many can there be compared to the number of officers?

if the difference between ship's_boat and pilot skill is related to jump drives only, then why not have battle riders 'flown' with ship's_boat skill? If the difference is size related with different controls, etc., then why have pilot_skill guys fly fighters?

I don't know. Could it possibly be because the character generation systems do not reflect the "reality" they model with absolute accuracy?


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

So do I. The point is that an interpretation is necessary and that the reasonable interpretation goes against the literal text. The rule specifically states that you can cross-train in any branch and that having cross-trained you can transfer to that branch.

kind of hard to transfer to a branch that your navy doesn't even have, EVEN IF you've been temporarily assigned to another navy for a term.

It doesn't expressly allow you to jump navies. That's your interpretation.

no, its not my interpretation...if you believe that it is, then you clearly haven't even been reading my posts.

You and I, being reasonable people, say "That can't be true in the case of Technical Branch in planetary and subsector navies", and so we ignore the rule in such cases. But we have to ignore the rule, because it does not specificy any such exception.

I feel that my interpretation of cross-training = training with another unit is quite reasonable. I have said that re-enlisting to a branch that doesn't exist in your own unit isn't possible unless you get special duty;cross-training again.
The interpretation that you seem to be making is that because technical branch isn't available to your unit, you aren't allowed to cross-train in another unit even as a temp assignment.

All what enlisted guys? Even if Ewan is right, there still isn't going to be many of them, is there?

ummm..yeah, there are a lot.
Unless an enlisted navy guy is on shore duty or training, he could opt to roll on the shipboard life skill table for a 1/6 chance at getting ship's boat skill.... each year. That would potentially be lots of enlisted guys being qualified to fly fighters and any other small craft. Yet, if fighter pilots get drawn from commissioned officers only, then all these enlisted guys don't get into combat. not behind the controls doing the job they've trained for, anyways. Pilot skill is for standing at the helm of big ships mostly and lil ships only as a second choice in a pinch.

 

[aramis]

Pilot and Ship's boat are two different skills and apply to different vehicles. Pilot applies to starships; it does not apply to fighters.

Wrong. Pilot (in CT and MT) "serves as ship's boat at -1". That is, a pilot 2 is also (without having ship's boat separately) also ship's boat 1, and a Pilot 1 is capable of flying a ship's boat as if level 0 skill (rather than unskilled- in MT, a 4 point difference.)

As to availability...
In MT, Pilot is available under the Space cascade; Ship's boat under vehicle and space cascades. Any basic Navy character can get both. Any Advanced Naval character can get the Space cascade as a specialist school if Int+Edu 16+; likewise, they can cross train to Flight branch and get pilot on a 6+ on the flight branch table (6 is Space, 7+ are pilot). So it is possible to have enlisted pilots in MT advanced.

 

[rancke]

I feel that my interpretation of cross-training = training with another unit is quite reasonable. I have said that re-enlisting to a branch that doesn't exist in your own unit isn't possible unless you get special duty;cross-training again.

Try rereading my post. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm pointing out that the rules as written allows just exactly that, re-enlisting in a non-existent branch of your service.

The interpretation that you seem to be making is that because technical branch isn't available to your unit, you aren't allowed to cross-train in another unit even as a temp assignment.

Wrong. I'm pointing out that without a referee making such an interpretation, the rules allows not only cross-training but also subsequent re-enlistment in the branch; they don't bring up the little impediment of the branch not existing at all.


Hans

 

[AndreaV]

I just gave you two possible reasons: In peacetime, the Imperial Navy gets all the officers they need for their flight branch without having to resort to promoting from the ranks. During major conflicts this is either still true or the CGS fails to account for promotions from the ranks during major conflicts.

This is a huge interstellar navy in the 57th Century, not a planet-bound military in the 21st. There may well be a lot of similarities, but everything doesn't have to work exactly the same way. In fact, it would be passing strange if it did.
Hans

I'd say what canon there is indicates that at least in peacetime, the Imperial Navy is picky about who gets to be a pilot (with some 15+ trillion subjects one suspects they can afford to be) and that they're all officers (current real world militaries often do this, so not too unusual).

What happens when the Imperium moves on to full war footing is not known. However, the Imperium very rarely does go on to a full war time footing. I can only think of three possible examples during its history: The Julian War, The Civil War and the Solomani Rim War (add The Rebellion if you want). Other than those, it would seem that the Imperium's wars are all relatively limited local affairs. And in these cases one would assume that any local shortfall in pilots could be made up by seconding from other sectors.

 

[Ishmael]

so what do all the enlisted ship's_boat people do if they don't fly combat missions? For non-combat missions, what do all the commissioned officer ship's_boat and pilot skilled guys do? Do the Imperials really allow such a wasteful overlapping of duty billets based on combat missions?

The pool of possible Imperial recruits is considerably smaller than one might imagine if you take tech level knowledge into affect given that the Imperial Navy tech is 15 which means that recruits need to be taken from tech 14 and tech 15 worlds ( hi-stellar tech in MT ). Otherwise, you'd have to assume that the Imperial forces take pains to give a base education to bring an applicant's tech knowledge up to Imperial navy standards.

battlefield promotions are handled abstractly by allowing a negative dm on the survival roll to be a positive dm on the decorations roll which brings brownie points. The accumulated brownie points can then be used as a positive dm for a commission or promotion.

 

[rancke]

so what do all the enlisted ship's_boat people do if they don't fly combat missions?

They fly ship's boats. Shuttles and lifeboats and launches and pinnaces and gigs (Oh My!).

In the original Book 1 description of Ship's Boat skill fighters are not even mentioned.

For non-combat missions, what do all the commissioned officer ship's_boat and pilot skilled guys do? Do the Imperials really allow such a wasteful overlapping of duty billets based on combat missions?

What does the officer with Medical and Ship's Boat do? What does the offficer with Engineering and Ship's Boat do? What do the officer with Gunnery and Ship's boat do? They all do whatever their other skills have caused them to be assigned to do.

The pool of possible Imperial recruits is considerably smaller than one might imagine if you take tech level knowledge into affect given that the Imperial Navy tech is 15 which means that recruits need to be taken from tech 14 and tech 15 worlds ( hi-stellar tech in MT ). Otherwise, you'd have to assume that the Imperial forces take pains to give a base education to bring an applicant's tech knowledge up to Imperial navy standards.

The throw to enlist is affected only by intelligence and education. Tech level of applicant is not taken into account. So it would appear that that's exactly what the Imperial Navy (and the duchy navies and the planetary navies) do.

Unless, of course, the character generation system is not a perfect match for the "reality" it is supposed to emulate.

Battlefield promotions are handled abstractly by allowing a negative dm on the survival roll to be a positive dm on the decorations roll which brings brownie points. The accumulated brownie points can then be used as a positive dm for a commission or promotion.

Basic CG does not have brownie points; Enhanced CG does not have commission rolls. Promotion rolls, yes, but enlisted men are promoted to higher enlisted rank, not officer rank. Enlisted men are turned into officers only through attendance of OCS.


Hans