Battleship and Battlerider

[mike wightman]

Daft thought.

Perhaps the fixation with BBs is that the Vilani built them.

We tend to concentrate these discussions on the TL15 of the Imperium at its zenith, but HG2 is much more powerful than that.

As others have posted the paradigm of naval superiority shifts as you go through the TLs.

At TL11 the BB would reign supreme.

By TL13 the BB can be defeated by a spinal meson gun on occasion but can still hold its own.

TL14 is where it starts to get interesting.

By TL15 a BB is a liability in terms of economics.

 

[travlar]

Well, personally I'd rather see the rules changed to allow battleships than canon changed to not have them, but somehow I doubt Marc (or anyone else) is going to put much weight on that.

Part of the problem with that, Mike, is that the Imperium has been at TL15 for a long time. I don't remember how long, but at least a few hundred years, which means it should have figured out that battleships aren't good.

 

[Matt123]

As others have posted the paradigm of naval superiority shifts as you go through the TLs.

At TL11 the BB would reign supreme.

By TL13 the BB can be defeated by a spinal meson gun on occasion but can still hold its own.

TL14 is where it starts to get interesting.

By TL15 a BB is a liability in terms of economics.

Hmm, I should have followed this thread! Thats not the impression I have from playing predominantly TL12/13, which is that fighters & carriers dominate the mid techs with BB's coming back into their own starting from TL 13/14.

I'll have to skim through the thread, 28 pages... It'll be interesting to read the logic. Especially the BB economics at TL15, thats an interesting view & worth looking into just by itself.

Cheers

 

[rancke]

We tend to concentrate these discussions on the TL15 of the Imperium at its zenith, but HG2 is much more powerful than that.

As others have posted the paradigm of naval superiority shifts as you go through the TLs.

At TL11 the BB would reign supreme.

By TL13 the BB can be defeated by a spinal meson gun on occasion but can still hold its own.

TL14 is where it starts to get interesting.

But the setting material we have speak of the TL 15 Imperium during the Classic Era, not the TL11 1st Impeirum or the TL12 Rule of Man or the TL13 Milieu Zero Imperium. (Well, there's GT:Interstellar Wars and T4 both of which I frankly admit I haven't studied in detail).

By the Classic Era, the Imperium has been at TL15 for a century and before that TL14 for three centuries. Long enough to have worked out most of the kinks of combat vessel design, I'd say.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Which brings me back to the point of the question for Marc.

Does HG2 model the OTU?

 

[robject]

Which brings me back to the point of the question for Marc.

Does HG2 model the OTU?

And of course the answer is: sort of, but maybe not very well. But thats not a very helpful response. Let's see if we can get a better picture of things.

 

[rancke]

Which brings me back to the point of the question for Marc.

Does HG2 model the OTU?

And what about MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and MGT? :devil:


Hans

 

[McPerth]

(Well, there's GT:Interstellar Wars and T4 both of which I frankly admit I haven't studied in detail).

I don't know GT and have studied a little, but not played T4, but they don't use HG style ship design, less so ship combat, so I don't think they're too applicable to this discussion.

Anyway, for what I've readed of T4, as ship combat goes by damage points, a Kdton 200 BB would stand quite more than a Kdton 20 BR.

And what about MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and MGT? :devil:

About MT, most said for HG would be valid too, about others, I don't know TNE, GT nor T20. About T4 and MGT, the systems are quite different from HG and (IIRC), there are less advantage from BRs to BBs, as they are damage point based.

If you mean their combat sysems should be revised, you're probably right, and so should Bk2/mayday system

 

[McPerth]

Anyway, I'm just thinking we use to take as examples the fleets of the Marches and Solomani Rim, which are both frontier fleets whith 'defense in deep' capability.

I guess things can change quite a lot if we think about Corridor Fleet, I know it's quite a particular fleet, as it is a very strong fleet for the space it has to hold due to its strategical importance and the presence of the restive Vargr near, and it's also a reserve fleet for conflicts Behind the Claw.

In his prime role, I think it can be better served by BBs/Cruisers than by BR/BTs, as it has to cover quite a lot of territory in missions a single BB or two Cruisers can do, just having to resort to heavier units in quite rare instances.

The only examples of Vargr capital ships I've found are in Rebelion book (MT), and you'll need quite a lot of them to scare a TL15 BB, let alone to destroy it. Sure the Vargr have higher TL ships (they have some TL15 planets), but to build a capital ship, you need quite a time with a stable government, and that's not what characterizes the Vargr...

Of course, Corridor Fleet would have its BR/BT squadrons, mostly in its role as strategic reserve, but I guess most of its fleet operations are carried by BBs or Cruisers, working alone or in pairs.

(As an aside, that's one scenario where Andrewmv's idea of single rider BTs would work and be useful, if they were not needed as strategic reserves)

 

[mike wightman]

And what about MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and MGT? :devil:


Hans

Hoy, that's my argument

Every incarnation of Traveller rules changed the setting - sometimes a little and sometimes a lot.

The folks at GDW didn't mind this one bit - it's only those of us trying to find a single definable OTU that are left in a pickle.

I think the only answer is there is not true OTU - every incarnation of rules reboots the setting.

 

[rancke]

Every incarnation of Traveller rules changed the setting - sometimes a little and sometimes a lot.

But they don't. Every incarnation of Traveller rules purport to apply to the same OTU setting. The history of the MT universe is supposedly the history of the CT universe. Any differences are due to retcons. MT doesn't claim that before 1116, jump-2 required 20% of tonnage and after 1116 that changed to 15%. It claims that it always took 15% and HG does not apply at all. But it is nevertheless supposed to be the same universe. TNE is even worse in its technological discrepancies, but the Classic Era and the Rebellion are nevertheless part of the history. In other words, the rules may differ but the setting material does not (unless explicitly retconned).

The folks at GDW didn't mind this one bit - it's only those of us trying to find a single definable OTU that are left in a pickle.

It's really a question of convenience. What's the point of having an official setting if you invalidate everything that has been produce in the 30 previous years when you put out a new version? What a collossal waste that would be.

I think the only answer is there is not true OTU - every incarnation of rules reboots the setting.

You could with equal justice claim that there is no such thing as 17th Century France; every RPG set in the period is different from the rest.

But be that as it may, I'll repeat my question: what's the point of dismissing all the preceding official settings every time a new version is published?

Umm... also, just what does all of this have to do with the claim that the CT rules and the CT setting are at odds?


Hans

 

[robject]

To some degree, only we grognards really care. We are the most steeped in it, to the point where we've forgotten more about Traveller than many players know about Trav.

You can point to each publisher and see how the leadership set the vision, or lack thereof. Once Marc was out of loop it was DGP's ball. Once DGP was out of the loop it was Dave's ball. Once GDW was out of the loop it was Marc's ball again... And Sweetpea Entertainment, or Courtney Solomon, or whomever was in charge of the product line and content.

You get the point. Each group was more or less well-intentioned, some more than others, some barely concerned, but each brought a spin on the setting, intentional or randomized. And were they all grognards, steeped in CT supplements, retaining perfect memory as they pieced their books together, and all striving for the unity of Canon? Uh, often not so much.

But that's okay. I hope the game is richer, even by tugging the OTU to and fro. And to a degree, I agree with Hans' underlying philosophy that there's a single, Platonic OTU there somewhere. Between the changing, formative CT years, and the wrenching updates, there is a consistent setting to be pulled out.

At least that's my hope. But I think that's Marc's call.

 

[rancke]

But that's okay. I hope the game is richer, even by tugging the OTU to and fro. And to a degree, I agree with Hans' underlying philosophy that there's a single, Platonic OTU there somewhere. Between the changing, formative CT years, and the wrenching updates, there is a consistent setting to be pulled out.

At least that's my hope. But I think that's Marc's call.

Platonic OTU. I like that.

I also agree that ultimately it's Marc's call. But until he makes it, we can all speculate.

One thing I'd like to make clear: Although I compare the Platonic OTU to the real world and various Traveller versions to historical RPGs, I do realize that the OTU is fictional and therefore subject to retcons. In a historical RPG you can't say that the Napoleonic Wars ended in a French victory (not without invoking alternate universes), because they didn't. With the OTU, Marc or his henchmen are able to say, for instance, "There never were a Fifth Frontier War and anything printed in previous Traveller versions about a Fifth Frontier War is wrong. It never happened." But until and unless Marc says so, I'm going to assume that there was a Fifth Frontier War and that if two different Traveller versions give two incompatible accounts of it, then one of those accounts are wrong.


Hans

 

[robject]

I can agree with that, and probably more.

Back to the subject then. If the majority of Imperial defense used to be riders, then the reason was probably the usual... Manageable logistics assuming you've got superiority, and riders are tough bastards. And they're cheap.

I.E. If you've NOT got superiority in power, then you're in trouble, so just make sure you have overwhelming force?

Then the Fourth Frontier War happens, not long (eighty years) after TL 15 was reached. Also, coincidentally, about the time that Black Globe cache was unearthed and figured out, right? So the Imperium refits, builds, and otherwise gathers ships (i.e. Not riders) into squadrons of cruisers and battleships for the front line... At least the Zhodani front line at first.

Assuming this is right, then ships of the line can take quite a beating, but aren't necessarily always the best choice. I suppose that means the sort of flexibility they bring to breakup from the battle is significant but not a show stopper. If you don't have overwhelming numbers, though, they are very helpful in damage control.

What else?

Ah,one more potential thing: the Zhodani must have attacked with scads of cruisers, in numbers calculated to beat battle rider squadrons.

 

[flykiller]

the Zhodani must have attacked with scads of cruisers

at one tech level behind imperial, that's a lot of hardware. it's more likely that psi plays a bigger role than admitted.

 

[aramis]

at one tech level behind imperial, that's a lot of hardware. it's more likely that psi plays a bigger role than admitted.

One ZTM on a suicide run with a backpack nuke ends a ship. He only has to get aboard and trigger. He even has the possibility to get back off... undetected.

 

[flykiller]

One ZTM on a suicide run with a backpack nuke ends a ship.

I was thinking more a port yard.

 

[RandyB]

at one tech level behind imperial, that's a lot of hardware. it's more likely that psi plays a bigger role than admitted.

In Traveller, psi always plays a bigger role than admitted. Given that CharGen is not a demographic simulator, the psi rules themselves are designed to keep psi-in-the-players'-hands rare and limited.