biosphere

[eiladayn]

Really, my geology is pretty weak, but I thought that I have read that except for hydrogen and helium, carbon was the most abundant element in the universe, I've been wrong before though. I'd have sworn that it went Hydrogen, Helium, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen, but I'm an old guy and my mind wanders at times.

Who publishes the comic? I like those myself.

Thanks,
Pappy

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
[QB] Really, my geology is pretty weak, but I thought that I have read that except for hydrogen and helium, carbon was the most abundant element in the universe, I've been wrong before though. I'd have sworn that it went Hydrogen, Helium, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen, but I'm an old guy and my mind wanders at times.

Carbon probably is more common in the universe, but you did specify 'in our environment'. Either way, on a terrestrial planet, silicon will always be more common because it's what the planet is pretty much madqe of.

Who publishes the comic? I like those myself.

Viz comics.

First volume
Second volume
Third volume

You can look at some of the pages there too.

The stories are all rather awesome and very inspirational - they follow man's exploration of the universe from pretty much now to the post-FTL future, but with a very human perspective. It's quite moving in places. Very much influenced by 2001, but with a bigger budget

.

 

[eiladayn]

Cool, Arthur C. Clarke is one of my favorites, I'll look here locally then buy it on line probably. Thanks.

Have you read "The Millenial Project" by Marshall T. Savage (Clarke wrote the Intro for the book), it opened my eyes to just how alone we might be so far as alien life--pretty interesting. He has a website www.millennial.org/. The Living Universe Foundation, wants to colonize the galaxy, has eight "easy" steps.

Pappy

 

[eiladayn]

By the way, just because the odds were long for life to develop here, there's exactly the same odds for it to happen again in similar circumstances, every time I flip a coin I have a 50-50 chance of heads, but the problem is getting 400 heads results flipping 500 times.

I am setrious about the chances of intelligent life nearby, the galaxy is supposed to be in excess of 10 billion years old, I believe and that gives enough time for someone to have developed enough to have built sub-light ships and expored the entire galaxy by now, where are they?

Pappy

 

[Tanuki]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
I am serious about the chances of intelligent life nearby, the galaxy is supposed to be in excess of 10 billion years old, I believe and that gives enough time for someone to have developed enough to have built sub-light ships and expored the entire galaxy by now, where are they?

They've probably visited us hundreds of times over the last couple of million years and written us off as just another planet full of life -- no special interest.

Just because they haven't shown up in the last 50 years or so when we might actually be able to detect them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Heck, we've been in this system for a million years or so and, up until the last few decades, you sure couldn't tell that from the rest of the system.

 

[Commander Drax]

Hi everyone, I hope you enjoyed your holidays, in referring to my earlier post, I don't serously believe that we are interdicted (red zone) or that a big shield exists blocking out the radio chatter of the rest of the galaxy, it would be great science fiction though! What I was simply trying to point out in an amusing and irreverant way, was that more observation and exploration of this solar system and a long haul process of sampling of other solar systems and the worlds they contain is needed before we can draw any conclusions about life in the universe. To echo the words of Arthur C Clark who once said that there are two possibilities, either there is intelligent life in the universe along with us, or there is'nt, both answers have staggering implications for mankind and his future in the universe. Too True. My owm personal belief is that there is perhaps a handful of intelligent species alive in the galaxy, separated by time, distance and technological ability, perhaps we as a species really are the first to develop sophisticated technology, why do we assume that these other intelligences would be more advanced than us, when evidence of their techology cannot be observed, furthermore has anyone considered that there may be different types of intelligence, No one can possibly know how an alien conciousness would think, or rationalise its place in our universe, and would that intellect be compatible with out own. As for intelligence, how do you prove that a lifeform is intelligent? Beaver's/otters build dams, and ants have complex societies yet none of these can be considered intelligent when compared to our own 'lofty intellect', you could argue that the ants are incredibly intelligent but are unable to relate to our own brand of intelligence and vice versa. Again don't take this too seriously, I only present these ideas in order to promote discussion and trains of thought (I am enjoying this thread immensely) and would simply like to point out that should the day come when we travel to the stars, if we do encounter planets with developed animal and plant life, intelligence might not be as easy to recognise as we think.

 

[Malenfant]

I don't think it IS particularly straightforward to prove that something is 'intelligent'. As you say, there's plenty of behaviour in all sorts of animals that implies some kind of intelligence.

Humanity does have a kind of 'moral blind spot' when it comes to 'lower lifeforms'. I don't doubt for a minute that most animals feel pain and a whole range of emotions, yet in some cases we do all sorts of nasty things to them. Or we can do things to them that we can't do to people (try yanking a toddler around with a leash tied around their neck, see how far it gets you ).

I'm not particularly complaining about this, just commenting on it. Though there are plenty of people who do complain (from things like the RSPCA to the loonies like PETA and the Animal Liberation Front).

But my point is that I'm sure there *are* other species on earth (particularly cetaceans) that could fulfil some objective, unbiased definition of intelligence, who we seem to conveniently class as 'animal' and therefore give ourselves carte blanche to use or abuse them as we will.

I blame the Bible, myself - all that "you shall have dominion over all animals" stuff in Genesis.

 

[Commander Drax]

Yeah, I agree entirely, the bible is indeed the cause of much suffering, slavery included, but on a more positive note, I genuinely do belive that mankind is becoming more enlightened as a species with each passing year, and that on the whole most progress is good and ultimately beneficial, though I do consider money to be a brake on human productivity, now if we could create a currency free society that somehow rewarded personal endevour then the sky really would be the limit, after all this is the only reason why we as a species have not yet began the work of colonising and exploiting the solar system, because it is horribly expensive to do so... Although now many younger more visionary entrepreneurs are recognising that there is quite literally fortunes to be made from outerspace, not least of which is the raw mineral resources available in the asteroid belt etc, eg, one small asteroid of mostly carbon and iron has been valued at over 80 billion dollars, which I would say is suffienct carrot for governments and businesses alike.

 

[eiladayn]

I participated some communications research a few years ago with chimps and I guarantee there are other sapients on earth, but I'm afraid the sapience beyond our atmosphere is few and far between.
As for theological questions, I think those are moot in so much as how we approach our use of the solar system and its resources, either view should see that the solar system can and should meet all of mankind's needs for the next millenium anyway, but we need to get out there and use it though for a number of reasons.

In other words, I agree with both of the last two gentlemen to post and I've very much enjoyed this little exercise in thought.....

Thanks
Pappy

 

[Vorlanth]

I do not wish to start a flame war. But in response to the statement that the bible was the origination of either the oppression of animals or of slavery, I would like to point out that evidence supports that the Babylonians, Sumerians, and Egyptians - which pre-date both Christians and Hebrews - practiced slavery and animal sacrifice/consumption/force-labor. And Chinese and Japanese societies, which we're non-Hebrew and non-Christian, did the same.

I think a more balanced view would be to admit that some people will use whatever excuse is at hand to support their desire for power and control - whether that's religion or social darwinism or patriotism.

But moreover (and hears a point that may be less palatable), there is no need for an excuse to oppress people or animals - it likely will happen anyway. In the effort to build a civilization, someone has to do the heavy lifting to build those pyramids or shopping mall or what have you. If you don't want to do it yourself, you use what's available - another person or an animal until the time that machine can replace them.

This is not to say we shouldn't oppose the oppression, mistreatment, or forced labor of people or animals. But we should realize that despite whatever moral high ground we can claim because we never did such things, the people of history were just as human as we were. We share all their faults much as their share all our intelligence (if you doubt this, read some of primary sources of the middle ages and you can see men striving toward the enlightenment we were born into). And if evils happened in the past under the banner of religion, the same evils can come to pass under a different label even if we dispense with religion entirely. Because the failibility of men is an evil not as easily destroyed as a bible or a koran or a torah.

But that's just my 0.02 credits. YMMV.

 

[eiladayn]

You're right Vorlanth, too many people try to pass their judgement off as truth. Truth is, slavery existed so long as it was cheaper to enslave a man to do a job than to feed an animal, or to run a machine to do the same task. Just as a lot of folks don't realize most times slavery was eradicated it merely made good economic sense to eliminate the institution. Sounds a bit cynical, but I'm afraid its true. No one people institution, or religion acn be blamed or take the credit for eradicating the plague of slavery.

As for me, I have yet to propose any view on this religion question and my stand about the lack of life out there has nothing to do with religion, just simple observation, thus far there's been nothing to observe, until there is something to see I won't believe in life elsewhere. There are just to many reasons against and only speculation for its existence. Our phone has yet to ring and no one has ever knocked on our door galactically speaking and this is all the more reason for our race to get off this world and perserve what may be the only life in the galaxy before some cosmic accident eradicates it.

Pappy

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
Truth is, slavery existed so long as it was cheaper to enslave a man to do a job than to feed an animal, or to run a machine to do the same task. Just as a lot of folks don't realize most times slavery was eradicated it merely made good economic sense to eliminate the institution.

This is true. There are exceptions - the Haitian slaves freed themselves. The slave owners then generously ensured that Haiti would become the lovely place that it is these days.

An interesting suggestion that has been made recently is that there are more slaves now than there has ever been at any other time in history. Of course, most of that is that there are more people overall, but it is still a reminder that a lot of stuff persists that you tend to imagine has gone away.

It also suggests some things about the world economy...

Alan B

 

[eiladayn]

Exactly so long as it is cheaper to feed one guy at a subsistance level and work him to death, than to buy and feed a mule (or whatever) or to buy and fuel a tractor somebody will enslave someone weaker. I'm not sure there is anyhting to be done about it, it seems to be part and parcel of the human culture to subvert the weaker in SOME manner, slavery is just about the most heinous way.

Still no aliens tho....

Pappy

 

[Commander Drax]

Trust me on this guys, speaking as a student of religion, philosphy, science, history not to mention being a genuinely religious guy, I can assure you that the Bible is indeed the cause of much suffering, I am not saying that suffering didnt exist before the bible or that it wont later on. Quite clearly suffering is caused by greed which is itself motivated by fear, i,e I am afraid that there isnt enough to go around so I will try and get as much as I can even if it involves the exploitation of others... All negative emotions are ultimately rooted in fear. Now in order to exploit the masses and make them work for your benefit, you need to convince them that it is necessary and important to do so, which becomes the realm of spin and sound bytes, often referred to as dogma, and entrenched belief. Which is why it pleases me so much to see mankind making positive gains on a yearly basis.

 

[eiladayn]

Commander Drax, although I agree that the Bible and its religion HAVE been used as an EXCUSE for the heinous acts of a number of people and societies, it has been used no more so than the Quaran, Torah, or any number of other religious works. I honestly can't think of ONE major human social institution that has NOT been used as an excuse for man's inhumanity to his own kind. I think it was Heinlein who said "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh". So long as we discuss religion no one is going to convince the other of the error of his ways, including 99% of those I've met who profess to be atheists.

But....this is very much off the subject of the thread, right?

Pappy

 

[Malenfant]

Well, it wasn't quite my intent to say that the bible (or religion, anyway) was generally responsible for much of the world's suffering - though I do believe that's largely true anyway.

I just mentioned the part about 'dominion over the animals', because it's clearly used as a justification for man's behaviour to 'lower lifeforms' - if it's in the bible, it comes from "On High", so it must be OK to do it. QED.

 

[Commander Drax]

In that case we're in complete agreement, on all counts. Exploitation is and always has been everywhere, the point I was trying to address was that exploitation has always been dressed up or justified in some way by any and all human societies, biblical references included. I like subjects like these as it can often be the source of some interesting Traveller adventure material, i.e. strange worlds, and strange societies if comprised of human beings will always have the same old flaws that our present society and all of its predecessors(ad infinatum)have also suffered and will always continue to suffer. It's the same old thing, only the names change, after all the point could be made that by introducing currency to our ancestors it made them more productive and bound them more tightly to their old masters than any slaves before them, simply because the accruing of wealth was self motivating (greed) as oppossed to working for nothing on behalf of someone else...

Ho Ho...

 

[Commander Drax]

Hi guys, just to make you aware my last post was a reply to eiladayn's previous post...

Although I think that we all agree with the points raised by Malenfant, (is that latin for bad child? Mal (Bad) Enfant (infant) I would be interested to know where the name comes from.

(I am not taking the mickey! I genuinely would like to know,) could you all let me know the meanings of all of your forum signatures, for example the reason why I choose to go by Commander Drax was because the very first Traveller Character I created I named Reidian Drax who's prior career was Imperial Navy having achieved the rank of commander (I know it's off topic but it's interesting, to me at least!)

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
Although I think that we all agree with the points raised by Malenfant, (is that latin for bad child? Mal (Bad) Enfant (infant) I would be interested to know where the name comes from.

Presumably.

It comes from the main character in Stephen Baxter's 'Time' and 'Space' books (being utterly brilliant hard sf), who is called Reid Malenfant. He was the type who'd do anything to get into space (and did), and screw what the small-minded politicians said. I can admire a guy like that

 

[Pwyll]

threadsplitters!

Pwyll was a rather headstrong Welsh king from the Mabinogion who befriended Arawn, the Lord of Underworld and (long story shortened) impressed him with his loyalty. Pwyll's consort was Rhiannon.

i don't speak Welsh, but i'm given to understand the correct pronounciation is "pooh-will".