Bk 5 Small Ship Universe

[Garyius2003]

Unfortunately those two points are forgotten when a flame erupts over what can and can't be done in the game and with the rules. I was merely trying to, stop-cut, say, any flames from erupting by pointing out that canon is not holy writ and the game can be anything you want it to be. The OP wants HG and LBB2 harmonized in a small ship universe, I have yet to see a thread where that sort of effort (along with fighters, carriers, battleship design and numerous other things of similar ilk) doesn't get sidelined by arguments over what canon allows.

If I have offended anyone I apologize.

I forgot an event here, which I think is on point, where I called some of Miller's business decisions into question. This was treated like a suggestion that changes J fuel to 1% per jump.

Part of the problem is 'Marc said' or 'Loren wants' folks, who think making a pretty good game and setting once (twice if you liked the rebellion and Mega system) not only excuses later decisions that weren't as good, but makes those decisions by definition wonderful.

I am not comparing it to a church but to a political party (maybe?).


Edit to add: This reads as harsher than I meant, and more one sided. My point isn't what I think about Mega/TNE/T4, or even GURPs/Mongoose, the point is that some folks think their system and setting is the one true path, led by their favorite lead designer, to the exclusion of all others. The issue, as I see it, isn't the belief, it is the inability to see where someone could see different.

 

[Piper]

The rules for LBB2 hits on HG2 rated drives can be found hidden in the K'kree Alien module.

Each LBB2 drive hit reduces the HG2 designed drive by 0.2.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it takes 5 hits in LBB 2 combat to reduce an HG designed drive by a full integer level, yes?

How is partial damage handled, rounding down?

 

[mike wightman]

The first hit reduces the drive by 1, it then takes 4 more hits.

The sixth hit reduces it by 1, it can then take 4 more hits etc.

This actually makes HG drives a lot more durable than most LBB2 drives.

 

[McPerth]

The rules for LBB2 hits on HG2 rated drives can be found hidden in the K'kree Alien module.

Each LBB2 drive hit reduces the HG2 designed drive by 0.2.

Found my AM2:K'Kree. Could you please tell me what page?

 

[Dragoner]

Found my AM2:K'Kree. Could you please tell me what page?

pg 12

...in space combat from basic Traveller, each hit on a drive reduces
the drive number by 0.2 (one-fifth of a point). Drives function at
their current number, rounding fractions down; this system is similar
to the reduction of alphabetic drive letters by one letter for each hit.

 

[McPerth]

TY. found it.

In any case, as K'kree ships are all large (minimal size standard is 5000 dtons, and they use increments of 1000 dton, so most of them cannot be built with Bk2 rules), it's logical that it is explicited there, but I guess this rule woldn't work with trully small ships (let's say a Gazelle, designed with HG rules. If so, drives are quite more durable than intended by the rules (or by my understanding of the rules).

See that with this rules, a HG designed 100 dton J3 ship (not possible with Bk2 rules, as each drives increment raises its capacity by 2) would stand 15 hits in the drives, while the same ship, with J4 capability, designed with Bk2 rules, would only stand 2...

 

[mike wightman]

How about the simple solution of giving the HG designed ship the nearest suitable LBB2 letter based drive rating for its damage track and then base drive performance degradation on the LBB2 drive table.

 

[Piper]

That might be the ideal solution. I've always favored Book 2 drives because they allow you to "overspec" the drive (over a limited range of tonnages and TL's) creating a more robust option.

That's definitely something I'd want to retain.

I wonder if a similar type of system could be engineered for computers?
I like Book 2's computer rules, but they're too cumbersome for more than a few ships. HG has the simpler system, but they degrade under damage much quicker than Book 2 (iffy statement there but you get what I mean).

Backup computers alleviate this but the cost is quite high.

In thinking about this, I'm also considering adding the TTA and UTES ideas from T2300's "Star Cruiser" as a means of defining/limiting multi-target options.

As far as the crew quality question goes, you can either assign a generic Crew Quality modifier or actually generate crew stats and skills. In the sort of small-ship, small-squadrons universe I use, it's doable.

 

[McPerth]

How about the simple solution of giving the HG designed ship the nearest suitable LBB2 letter based drive rating for its damage track and then base drive performance degradation on the LBB2 drive table.

This works for small ships (the scout I told above), but doesn't for (relatively)large ones, unless you expand the drives table to larger ones.

I like Book 2's computer rules, but they're too cumbersome for more than a few ships.

IMHO all Bk2 ruless are too cumbersome if more than a few ships are involved in a combat. Any large (in number of ships) fleet engagement is unplayable if you try to keep track on the vector of all ships, the damage for each one of them, fire each turret individually, etc...

 

[mike wightman]

This works for small ships (the scout I told above), but doesn't for (relatively)large ones, unless you expand the drives table to larger ones.

Once you get to the type V drive in a 600t ship you are into the realm of just using the 0.2 per hit rule.

A 100t ship can take at the most 3 hits per drive, 200t can take up to 6, for 400t its 13 hits max, a 600t ship can take 20 hits.

Remember a drive isn't destroyed until its reduced to less than A, it may no longer function but its not destroyed.

IMHO all Bk2 ruless are too cumbersome if more than a few ships are involved in a combat. Any large (in number of ships) fleet engagement is unplayable if you try to keep track on the vector of all ships, the damage for each one of them, fire each turret individually, etc...

I agree completely

Which is why I moved to a range band system (adapted from Starter Edition Traveller) and group ships into task force or squadrons depending on the fleet engagement I am modelling.

For damage I either use HG2 resolution or rate the ships into FFW/IE format and use the combat matrices from those games.

 

[McPerth]

Once you get to the type V drive in a 600t ship you are into the realm of just using the 0.2 per hit rule.

A 100t ship can take at the most 3 hits per drive, 200t can take up to 6, for 400t its 13 hits max, a 600t ship can take 20 hits.

Remember a drive isn't destroyed until its reduced to less than A, it may no longer function but its not destroyed.

The 5 hits per numbre are reached at 1000 dton, end that only up to 4 (that can take up to 4 hits), as #5 can take only 3 hits, as can #6.

form 2000 dton up you cannot reach #6, so you're limited.

I agree completely

For a change...:devil:

Which is why I moved to a range band system (adapted from Starter Edition Traveller) and group ships into task force or squadrons depending on the fleet engagement I am modelling.

I don't own starting Traveller, so I trust you're knowledge here...

For damage I either use HG2 resolution or rate the ships into FFW/IE format and use the combat matrices from those games.

FFW/IE format doesn't allow to feature the fact that a TL15 starship is nearly inmune to the fire from a TL11 one (as would be Imperial units vs Sword Worlds'), as in HG2, the +/- 4 modifier due to computer difference makes the TL11 ships doomed, regardless numbers involved.

The best weapon at TL11 (as to hit numbers) is the K PA spinal, that would hit on a 2+. If you feature the agility (always assumed 6) and the +/-4, you'll hit on a 12+ (10+ if the target is large enough), and damage the target on a 6- (if we assume armor 15).

On the reverse, even a J rated meson spinal will hit on a 4+, if agility is 6. and with the computer modifier, it will hit on a 6+ (probably easier, as to have the K spinal it must be large), and the target is dead (no meson screen, the +4 to penetrate makes it automatic except for configurations 7, penetrated on a 4+, and 9, penetrated on a 3+).

And for lesser batteries (as we're talking about small ship universe), things are even worse for the one with the lesser computer and lower armor, if using HG2 rules.

In FFW/IE system, those lower tech ships would have lesser factors, but would be able to damage the TL15 ships, and with numbers enough, even to achieve superiority.

Not saying this is bad, just incoherent with HG2 rules...

 

[mike wightman]

FFW/IE format doesn't allow to feature the fact that a TL15 starship is nearly inmune to the fire from a TL11 one (as would be Imperial units vs Sword Worlds'), as in HG2, the +/- 4 modifier due to computer difference makes the TL11 ships doomed, regardless numbers involved.

Yes it does, sort of - the optional quality rule that represents TL etc.

The FFW and IE combat matrices have a rule where the quality difference shifts the fire resolution either up or down a column.

So I just house rule that TL11 squadron shooting at a TL15 squadron uses the resolution column 4 lower. The TL15 squadron uses 4 higher - as a result the TL15 force gains a considerable advantage from its TL.

It's a pretty close approximation of the results I get from HG based combat.

But anyway - the topic is HG for PC scale activities (I started a thread about this many years ago ), and not my house ruled system for an insystem operational level war-game.

So I'll shut up.

 

[robject]

In Bk2 the fuel needed for Pp depended on the PP number (PP number x 10). So a V rated PP could need from 60 tons if installed on a 600 ton ship (so Pn=6) to 10 ton if installed on a 4000 ton ship (so Pn=1). That makes few sense, IMHO. Frankly, I like more HG2 fuel computation for PP.

I'm late to the game, but there's another data point worth mentioning. When reverse engineering the "Book 2" smallcraft, you'll find that fuel requirements are in line with High Guard.

This makes Book 2's ship design system an even more bizarre anomaly. Is this intentional, or not?

The rule appears to be: fuel (tons) = 0.01 x hull tonnage x maneuver rating (implicit is the assumption that the power plant has the same rating as the maneuver drive). The minimum fuel volume is 1 ton, and is usually rounded up. I don't think there's a duration given, but I assume 1 month for the calculated fuel requirement.

The Pinnace requires 2 tons of fuel. 0.01 x 40t x 5G = 2 tons.
The Slow Pinnace requires 1 ton of fuel. 0.01 x 40t x 2G = 0.8 tons (but minimum is 1 ton, so duration is longer).

The Ship's Boat requires 2 tons of fuel. 0.01 x 30t x 6G = 1.8 tons (round up to 2 tons).
The Slow Boat requires 1 ton. 0.01 x 30t x 3G = 0.9t (minimum is 1 ton, so duration is slightly longer).

And so on.

The only design which does not round up (but probably should have) is the Shuttle.

The Shuttle requires 0.01 x 95t x 3G = 2.85t. ("should" round up to 3, but does not).

 

[McPerth]

But anyway - the topic is HG for PC scale activities (I started a thread about this many years ago ), and not my house ruled system for an insystem operational level war-game.

So I'll shut up.

In any case, your house rule might be quite interesting, even if I agree with you that better on its own thread.

About Bk2 and Bk5 combat (and design) systems, one difference I see as important is that they represent, IMHO, two different approaches to Traveller, and, to a point, two different games.

Bk2 is more about role playing, and so the ship combat system is more detailed and character centered, making the characters at least as protagonists as the ship itself. Each weapon has its own fire, most times (I guess) directed by a character whose skill is important, etc...

HG2 is about fleet encounters, centered on fleet composition and quality, and less centered on characters. It's more for wargaming, and less for role play.

When both merge, results use to be one sided. In any case, if players (RPG), usually with a Bk2 small ship according to their POW about universe, meet and engage a larger, HG2 designed ship (wargaming), result is as one sized as if a players party engage a bull battalion of troops. Basically options are: run away, surund or go to CharGen again.

In Traveller RPG, the Imperial Navy with its large (HG2 designed) ships, is more as a background menace to keep the players on line (or to rescue them) than a player faction, as they play in a larger league.