Boarding less lethal weapon/device

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Hey now!

/snip/

Or, just release a canned motie watchmaker...

I would watch it with statements like that, sir.

First, I would like to remind you the Motie Incident is still classified.

Two, importation of Motie Watchmakers is still a High Imperial Crime, last I checked. All that "biological threat vectors" and "weapons of mass destruction" stuff.

Now, if you would follow the nice Captain Renner here to this room...

 

[SanDragon]

Annnd, that's an inside joke if ever I've seen one...

 

[aramis]

Annnd, that's an inside joke if ever I've seen one...

Call it a Niven Test....:rofl:

 

[SanDragon]

Then I fail!

Note to self: read more Niven...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah, I saw this in a book about androids once..

Call it a Niven Test....:rofl:

I tend to think of it as the Pournelle Test, since he was how I found them, well that and a recommendation or two.

 

[aramis]

Then I fail!

Note to self: read more Niven...

Two books, Jointly Niven and Pournelle: Mote In God's Eye, and The Gripping Hand. Screamingly Travelleresque. Awesome reads, but I recommend reading something between the two - they were written many years apart, and set several decades apart.

The Pournelle/Stirling joint The Prince is the Baen omnibus of the other end of that empire... the tales of Falkenberg's Legion... and a different writing style.

 

[McPerth]

Yeah, maybe,...but the original question was about less-lethal weapons so I'm just spitballing and trying to get it back on track.

Gel-bags should work fine in vacuum as they are self contained in a bag and provide a heavier punch than lead bags do, I suppose whether or not heavy blobs of gluey foam would or not depends on chemistry and TL...but I figure in a universe of jump drives and FGMP's anything is possible.

But as I have tried to point out before I'm just trying to come up with less-lethal ideas and show that you can have all these toys available and all the nastier tools in your ever-capacious ship's locker...once you decide to board the circumstances will dictate which ones you actually use.

I'm not sure most foams don't need atmosphere to solidify them, si I wondered if they should work in vacuum.

Anyway, they could be quite useful as anti-hijacking or "riot control" (let's say a brawl in your ship's bar) in a ship, and probably good fire extringuishers too...

 

[McPerth]

Two books, Jointly Niven and Pournelle: Mote In God's Eye, and The Gripping Hand. Screamingly Travelleresque. Awesome reads, but I recommend reading something between the two - they were written many years apart, and set several decades apart.

I readed them some years ago, and, while the setting is quite travelleresque, the tech is not, IIRC.

 

[mike wightman]

The jump points idea was used in Imperium (even as far as the Sirius gap) and the Langston Field is the black globe - especially the HG1 version.

 

[aramis]

I readed them some years ago, and, while the setting is quite travelleresque, the tech is not, IIRC.

You misremember. The jump drive (Alderson Drive) is different, and the screens work differently from (but are the inspiration for) black and white globes, but it's otherwise VERY much traveller. I read it this year.

To be honest I prefer the "rainbow globe" of MIGE to the Black Globe of Traveller. More fun narratively.

 

[Garyius2003]

Right down to nobles rising to major combatant ship commanders because it is harder to bribe them.

You misremember. The jump drive (Alderson Drive) is different, and the screens work differently from (but are the inspiration for) black and white globes, but it's otherwise VERY much traveller. I read it this year.

To be honest I prefer the "rainbow globe" of MIGE to the Black Globe of Traveller. More fun narratively.

 

[sabredog]

I'm not sure most foams don't need atmosphere to solidify them, si I wondered if they should work in vacuum.

Anyway, they could be quite useful as anti-hijacking or "riot control" (let's say a brawl in your ship's bar) in a ship, and probably good fire extringuishers too...

The foams could be two jets - one containing an oxidizing catalyst and other the rest of the ingredients. as a binary agent it would activate until the both came into contact with each other. Now in zero-gravity vacuum it might be a problem (but impact-bursting gel-bags with the binary agents inside would help there) but in just vacuum alone it should work. And you wouldn't have to have two brands for use in and out of atmosphere that way, one size would fit all.

 

[Orr]

I readed them some years ago, and, while the setting is quite travelleresque, the tech is not, IIRC.

The first book inspired some "Traveller" technologies but you're right when you say the two don't match up well.

The books have jump lines between jump points while "Traveller" has jump limits. The books don't have gravitics. The books' globes are very different; globes in "Traveller" act as armor in both directions while globes in the books have portholes for weapons. Globes in the books don't download energy into capacitors either. Personal lasers in the books seem to use ammo of some sort, "Traveller" didn't do that until "TNE" IIRC. There are lots of differences.

The book was an inspiration, like many other books.

 

[McPerth]

You misremember. The jump drive (Alderson Drive) is different, and the screens work differently from (but are the inspiration for) black and white globes, but it's otherwise VERY much traveller. I read it this year.

To be honest I prefer the "rainbow globe" of MIGE to the Black Globe of Traveller. More fun narratively.

IIRC the force field in MIGE was used also to protect cities (which lead to circular cities), while, AFAIK, BG in traveller may only be used in space, as it absorbs matter as well as energy.

MIGE also lacks gravitics (as Orr pointed) nor inertial compensators (above 3G crewmemebers go into baths to better endure it, IIRC), and (at least on Purnelle's books that, as I understood, are the same universe quite a time before), most weaponry is more like advanced nowdays weapons that lasers or energy weapons.

All this was what I meant when I said the tech is quite diferent. You could tink you're on a traveller universe for the sociology in MIGE, but not for its tech, IMHO.

That was what I meant

 

[aramis]

IIRC the force field in MIGE was used also to protect cities (which lead to circular cities), while, AFAIK, BG in traveller may only be used in space, as it absorbs matter as well as energy.

MIGE also lacks gravitics (as Orr pointed) nor inertial compensators (above 3G crewmemebers go into baths to better endure it, IIRC), and (at least on Purnelle's books that, as I understood, are the same universe quite a time before), most weaponry is more like advanced nowdays weapons that lasers or energy weapons.

All this was what I meant when I said the tech is quite diferent. You could tink you're on a traveller universe for the sociology in MIGE, but not for its tech, IMHO.

That was what I meant

It's still erroneous.

Except for the Alderson Drive (and its tramlines) and the Globes, all the tech in MIGE is roughly TL 9-12 Traveller tech (TL 12 for the PA turrets). The lack of gravitics is a non-issue - TL 9 Traveller ships also lack AG and IC, which are TL 10 technologies, and outside of CT and MGT, are items that can be left out of the design. Even the fluid tanks are in TNE... The MacArthur uses spin-grav, too, in the rare cases of coasting, and when in orbit... just like the Lab Ship.

Also, the Alderson Drive looks to have been the direct inspiration for Imperium's jump mechanics - and Imperium is the prototype for the OTU. (That Marc considers Imperium canon is obvious as it's listed as Traveller Game #1 on the CD.) Oh, and the Alderson Drive is in TNE, too...

It's also a setting, one of the few of the era, that has near-constant thrust drives and almost no coasting - excepting only civilian freighters, the CoDo universe is filled with lots of stupidly long accelerations.

 

[Orr]

It's still erroneous.

You're wrong and you're cherry-picking. Both settings have lots of tech the other doesn't.

Except for the Alderson Drive (and its tramlines)...

FTL tech is the core of any interstellar sci-fi setting. "Traveller" and MiGE have two very different drives.

... all the tech in MIGE is roughly TL 9-12 Traveller tech (TL 12 for the PA turrets).

There are no PAs in MiGE. MiGE's version of personal lasers, the kind that need ammo, can't be built by the RC in TNE without Hiver imports. What does that say about their TL?

The lack of gravitics is a non-issue.

No it isn't and you're cherry-picking again.

... TL 9 Traveller ships also lack AG and IC...

Not in Book 2 or High Guard, the design systems used to create the vast majority of "Traveller" ships.

... are items that can be left out of the design.

They're left out because there weren't any rules from them and not because they aren't present.

Even the fluid tanks are in TNE...

One design system out of 6? Seven?

The MacArthur uses spin-grav, too, in the rare cases of coasting, and when in orbit... just like the Lab Ship.

That's apples and orange and you know it. MacArthur uses spin gravity because it doesn't have gravitics. The Lab Ship uses spin gravity because the gravitics systems aboard can interfere with experiments. One ship has the technology and the other doesn't.

Also, the Alderson Drive looks to have been the direct inspiration for Imperium's jump mechanics - and Imperium is the prototype for the OTU. (That Marc considers Imperium canon is obvious as it's listed as Traveller Game #1 on the CD.) Oh, and the Alderson Drive is in TNE, too...

It says as much in the 1st version of the rules, but Imperium isn't purely OTU. There are lots of differences between the two including tankers which make fuel from stars.

TNE presents all sorts of alternate FTL drives, but that doesn't mean they're used in the OTU.

It's also a setting, one of the few of the era, that has near-constant thrust drives and almost no coasting - excepting only civilian freighters, the CoDo universe is filled with lots of stupidly long accelerations.

Seeing as all the other sci-fi settings have warp drive or something similar, thrust isn't an issue there. The MiGE setting only sees warships and couriers using constant acceleration and the trips are long because of where the Alderson Points are. Sol's is out past Neptune IIRC.

MiGE was an inspiration and not a blueprint. The same as Poul Anderson's League and Flandry stories, the same as Norton's Trader stories, the same as Asimov's work, the same as man other books, and the same as Miller's unpublished game about an interstellar empire surrounded b six enemies.

 

[McPerth]

It's still erroneous.

Except for the Alderson Drive (and its tramlines) and the Globes, all the tech in MIGE is roughly TL 9-12 Traveller tech (TL 12 for the PA turrets). The lack of gravitics is a non-issue - TL 9 Traveller ships also lack AG and IC, which are TL 10 technologies, and outside of CT and MGT, are items that can be left out of the design. Even the fluid tanks are in TNE... The MacArthur uses spin-grav, too, in the rare cases of coasting, and when in orbit... just like the Lab Ship.

Also, the Alderson Drive looks to have been the direct inspiration for Imperium's jump mechanics - and Imperium is the prototype for the OTU. (That Marc considers Imperium canon is obvious as it's listed as Traveller Game #1 on the CD.) Oh, and the Alderson Drive is in TNE, too...

Maybe I'm erroneous, but I see quite a difference among having some points from where to make an instantaneous transit and being able to jump from anywere (or nearly so, 100 d limits excluded) and having the jump lasting 1 week.

IIRC, in MiGE, what makes long interstellar travel is the time in normal space, accelerating to the Alderson point (more so as the lack of AG and IC makes high G travel not an option), while the transit from system to system across the Alderson point is instantaneous (or nearly so). In Traveller, what makes interstellar travel long is the time in jump, as, if in a hurry and fueled, you can spend only a few hours in normal space. If I had to compare the FTL travel in MiGE with a game, Starfire is what comes to mi mind (not aplicable to STL travel, though).

Anyway, I'm speaking from memory, as there are many years since I read MiGE...

EDIT:About TNE travel systems, I have to trust your word, as I've never been interested in TNE (I was among the ones that hated it as a MT destroyer, and even if I bought the main book, it never appealled me), and also MGT has alternative drives systems, but, when we talk about Traveller technology, I understand we're talkning moslty about the OTU tech, even if other tech paradigms may have its place using Traveller rules.

 

[aramis]

TNE's design system is 100% included in T4's (but not the reverse). Nothing in MIGE except the Chromatic Globe isn't explicitly covered in TNE and T4 FF&S. And it's close enough for gaming purposes to be covered by Traveller's White Globe... albeit that would push to TL 19+.

There is no tech in MIGE besides those two items that isn't core to traveller. And one of those two is an explicit option in 2 editions (TNE, T4 - it's called a Keyhole Drive there).

Not everyone plays in the OTU - there is nothing but those two items that requires new rules, and if using TNE or T4, only the globe does.

 

[McPerth]

TNE's design system is 100% included in T4's (but not the reverse). Nothing in MIGE except the Chromatic Globe isn't explicitly covered in TNE and T4 FF&S. And it's close enough for gaming purposes to be covered by Traveller's White Globe... albeit that would push to TL 19+.

I have once more to trust your word (aside that I have no reason not to) in T4, as, once again, I have only the core book and a pair of supplements. Sorry, it didn't appeal me either, as I didn't like the game mechanics (already explained in other threads).

In MT, the wite globe was TL 20, but was only midly explained, to say the least, as most such ultra-tech items, most of which were not cost effective, BTW (maybe the WG was the only one that was).

There is no tech in MIGE besides those two items that isn't core to traveller. And one of those two is an explicit option in 2 editions (TNE, T4 - it's called a Keyhole Drive there).

Beside those two items and the FTL paradigm, but there are a lot of tech in Traveller that are not in MiGE

Not everyone plays in the OTU - there is nothing but those two items that requires new rules, and if using TNE or T4, only the globe does.

Of course, and they may have very good times in it, but when we talk about traveller tech and settings, without more specifics, I guess most of us assume more or less OTU (at least, I do, sorry if I'm wrong here).

 

[McPerth]

Or, just release a canned motie watchmaker...

BTW, aside from casting some doubt about this being non-lethal, it would take quite a time for them to do the work...