Book 2 Sandcasters

[creativehum]

I read the rules to Mayday last night, and the mysteries of sandcasters and missiles fell away. I now feel like I have a handle on Book 2 starship combat. (SS3 covered the missiles, but I found the presentation in Mayday perfect in its clarity. I can no go SS3 if I wish and dig in deeper.)

But one questions remains. The text of Mayday suggests that a ship can only use one sand cloud of protection at a time. (There is no suggestion of extra DMs for additional clouds.) The sand envelopes the ship and protects the ship as long as the sand cloud and ship match vectors.

Meanwhile, in the 1977 edition of Book to there is this:

"Per ½” of obscuring sand .......................... –3"

And in the 1981 edition there is this:

"Obscuring sand (per 25mm) -3"

How do these dimensions come into play? Do they expand out from the ship in all directions? Are they causes by launching multiple canisters? Can players choose where to place the canisters.

Knowing that how missiles work was printed only in JTAS, Mayday, and then SS3, I'm wondering if this issue of sandcasters was covered anywhere else?

 

[mike wightman]

I think they assumed one sandcaster would produce a 25mm cloud - use a circular marker of some sort to show it.

Since LBB2 combat uses vector diagrams facing is important, so you may need multiple sandclouds if you are being attacked from different directions.

If you use the hex map approach of Mayday then you would need 6 sandclouds to fully surround the ship.

 

[infojunky]

I think they assumed one sandcaster would produce a 25mm cloud - use a circular marker of some sort to show it.

Since LBB2 combat uses vector diagrams facing is important, so you may need multiple sandclouds if you are being attacked from different directions.

If you use the hex map approach of Mayday then you would need 6 sandclouds to fully surround the ship.

Under book 2 I always drew a 25mm circle around the launching ship for a single canister. Now each canister launched can be placed where the firing player wants it in general proximity to the launching ship.

Under hex movement I generally use the same system where a Canister launched in the same hex surrounds the ship, but they also can be launched into adjacent hexs as well. I also give sand a duration as well. Sand disperses at a rate of one canister per turn, thus if you fire 3 canisters into a hex the sand effect will last for three turns (I have a set of "Sand" tokens to visually represent this on the board).

 

[kilemall]

The big question, can ships drop multiple lines of sand, much like laying smoke, and increase their protection to where it is impossible to hit them through the main line of sand requiring maneuver to get a more favorable angle?

 

[infojunky]

The big question, can ships drop multiple lines of sand, much like laying smoke, and increase their protection to where it is impossible to hit them through the main line of sand requiring maneuver to get a more favorable angle?

I have thought of that one, but I haven't played it out to see how it works.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sand, like missiles, launch with the ship's vector. It should be pretty straight forward to launch multiple clouds to hide behind.

 

[creativehum]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies!

So, in Mayday there is this:

Mark the present position counter of the launching ship with a blank white counter. For as long as the ship does not change course, the counter remains in place, indicating that a cloud of sand surrounds the ship.

As it is a simplified version of the Book 2 this make sense.

As for Book 2

• Dropping a 25mm circle to represent clouds makes sense
• Being able to add multiple obscuring clouds for multiple DMs makes sense
• Needing to add multiple clouds to protect the ship from different angles makes sense**
• Needing to then maneuver around clouds for better shots makes sense**

(**These two points make positioning matter in the miniatures game, which is a good thing. It also means that a ship could have defensive clouds on one side, but be clear on another side for offensive laser shots. After all, a ship that has laid down sand will suffer penalties firing through it as well.)

My only two remaining questions are:

• How close/far can the clouds be placed? What is the range for the canister? I don't think I've come across an answer to that question.
• Can a cloud be place within a cloud? So that the positioning of the two clouds is the same, the cloud denser, and the DMs doubled.)
• Is the 25mm a precise concern? That is, if we're using a circle, then the 25mm will technically only be measured through the circle's center. If one is drawing a line through 10mm of the cloud is the DM proportionally less? Or do we assume that if the line is drawn through any part of the cloud circle the full DM applies?

I'm assuming the answer to the first question is "Nearby" and that would be good enough.

I'm assuming the answer to the second question is, "Yes." You have have a denser cloud for a narrowing angle of protection, or a wider spread but less density. That's up to the player to decide how he wants to play it.

As for the third question, it seems as if the best way to run it is each cloud is a 25mm circle and if the LOS cuts through any portion of it then a DM -3 is applied to any cloud it crosses.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

DM -3 is very big. Allowing several of them tends to make lasers totally impotent.

If you can stack clouds, just launch a few canisters on your position and you are immune to lasers. I find that not desirable...

 

[creativehum]

Well, no one attacking such a ship finds that desirable.

However...

• The sand only offers protection if the ship does not change vector.
• If a ship is "stacking" sand clouds then the ship is protecting a narrower angle of the ship.
• If a ship is using a turret to launch sand then the ship is not using that turret to launching missiles.
• If hiding behind clouds the ship is a sitting duck for missiles.
• Sandcasters are finite on a ship.
• A ship firing laser "out of" defensive clouds suffers the same penalties.

I'm not saying this list provides enough complications to offset the value of stacked sand. I haven't played the game out yet to know. I do suspect it could make relative positioning and maneuvering of the ships a hell of a lot more important and tense. Since we're taking the time to play a vector based game, I suspect this is what Miller intended.

I do know that as an RPG tool I'm fine if the PCs or NPCs decide to high tail it with a trail of sand and see if it works. (And my focus here is starship combat as part of RPG experience; not as a miniatures war-game or as a simulation of starship combat.) In terms of roleplaying choices running still leads to more complications. It doesn't really solve the problem.

I think noting that if a ship sets itself up properly to be safe from lasers is a really important point. But there are factors that complicate being able to hide from enemies against countless piles of clouds.

 

[Timerover51]

If hiding behind clouds the ship is a sitting duck for missiles.

A few thoughts on this.

First, as the missile is traveling at a much higher speed than the ship, running into a cloud of sand is going to have a bit of an abrasive effect on the missile.

Second, depending on the missile guidance system, adding radar-reflecting chaff to the sand would be reasonable, as some types of chaff would also make good laser reflectors. I can think of a few easily made and collapsible radar reflectors that could be added to the mix.

Third, adding a few ball bearings to the sand might also be very useful at taking out a homing missile. A missile hitting a ball bearing with a velocity differential of say 5 kilometers per second or more is going to take a lot of damage to its front end.

Lastly, unless you give the missile infinite fuel, it is going to have limited capabilities to change its velocity vector once the fuel runs out. At that point, the ship is no longer a sitting duck, as it can still maneuver.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

50 kg sand spread out in a 2500 km diameter sphere is next to nothing, about 0.000000006 kg/km³.
If we use ball bearings that might be 1 small ball per 100000 km³.

A missile is extremely unlikely to notice anything...

Any missile which passes through sand may be incapacitated by that sand. For each 25 millimeters of sand that a missile passes through, throw 12+ for the missile to be incapacitated by it. If incapacitated, the missile ceases
to function.

 

[mike wightman]

Sandcasters stand up to real world physics as well as 50kg missiles with the performance they have in Traveller, or for that matter lasers.

There are two laws of physics that do not appear to matter in the Traveller universe, diffraction and thermodynamics.

The sandcaster issue is further complicated by CT sources that have the sandcaster usable as a giant shotgun at personal/vehicle combat scale.

If any sort of real world physics is to be applied to starship weapons the timescale of a turn needs to be reduced, weapon ranges will be much shorter, and an explanation of heat management has to finally become canonical, even if it is the gravitic heat sink

 

[whartung]

Also, consider that how HG treats the sand caster as "more is better". More triple turrets mean a higher factor for attacks to penetrate. Also in HG, sand does not linger and it's used reactively.

 

[infojunky]

If any sort of real world physics is to be applied to starship weapons the timescale of a turn needs to be reduced, weapon ranges will be much shorter, and an explanation of heat management has to finally become canonical, even if it is the gravitic heat sink

Shorter turns and ranges is my choice.

 

[Timerover51]

50 kg sand spread out in a 2500 km diameter sphere is next to nothing, about 0.000000006 kg/km³.
If we use ball bearings that might be 1 small ball per 100000 km³.

A missile is extremely unlikely to notice anything...

Fifty kilograms of sand spread out over the great a cubic volume of space is not going to do a whole lot to counter a laser either. If it can, then the laser is not going to hurt a ship. How does the sand caster spread the sand over that great a volume of space, by the way?

Oh. by the way, how long can your missile continue to boost?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Fifty kilograms of sand spread out over the great a cubic volume of space is not going to do a whole lot to counter a laser either.

It has to be extremely small flakes of basically atomic scale that somehow interact with lasers. Sufficiently high technology?

Oh. by the way, how long can your missile continue to boost?

The missile supplement from JTAS says:

For example, a typical missile is a 5G5 limited burn, radio sensing, proximity detonator, high explosive warhead missile ...

5G5 means that it can boost by 5G for 5 turns.

That means a 6G ship can outrun the missiles...

 

[creativehum]

That means a 6G ship can outrun the missiles...

A 6G ship can outrun most things.
As a side note both the CT Errata and the Revised Special Supplement 3: Missiles state the stardard missile is 5G6.

 

[Timerover51]

It has to be extremely small flakes of basically atomic scale that somehow interact with lasers. Sufficiently high technology?

According to The Traveller Book, Technology Chart on page 86, sand casters are listed as available at Tech Level 5, circa 1900 to 1930.

The missile supplement from JTAS says:

5G5 means that it can boost by 5G for 5 turns.

That means a 6G ship can outrun the missiles...

Hmm, the missile weighs, to start with, 50 kilograms, so a starting acceleration of 5 Gs requires at least 250 kilograms of thrust, plus it has to have some way of changing its vector in travel, as aerodynamic surfaces do not work in vacuum, so all vector changes have to be made by thruster as well. Then you have a guidance system capable of acquiring a ship. If an active radar homer, then you have to have some form of antenna both sending and receiving the target return. And included in the 50 kilograms is some form of high explosive warhead with a proximity fuse. All this in a package of about the same weight as a Sidewinder. Note, the Sidewinder has a direct impact warhead because it is not effective with a proximity fuze. The warhead is not large enough.

Now, you are using this very small warhead against what you claim in another thread to be a heavily armored hull. Much more than my 40 pound, one inch/25mm hull plating of HY-80 high-tensile steel, which is more than sufficient to stop fairly large warhead fragments. How big is this warhead, by the way? And how much of the missile weight is the guidance system and power source? How much of the missile weight is the packaging to hold all of this together? As I am not that up on space combat, how long is the missile supposed to be boosting and accelerating? Is it continuously accelerating at 5Gs the entire time?

As stated, the missile mass is very close to that of the heat-seeking Sidewinder, which basically is a boost and cruise missile, with a small warhead, that is fired against aircraft with little to no armor.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As I am not that up on space combat, how long is the missile supposed to be boosting and accelerating? Is it continuously accelerating at 5Gs the entire time?

Normally, yes. You can also build missiles that can turn their drive on and off.

As stated, the missile mass is very close to that of the heat-seeking Sidewinder, which basically is a boost and cruise missile, with a small warhead, that is fired against aircraft with little to no armor.

I would consider the missile to be more like a HEAP anti-tank missile, giving reasonable penetration.

It also attacks at potentially very high speed, adding a kinetic component to the damage. After boosting for 30 min at 5G it would have a speed of 90 km/s, far faster than any gun round.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As a side note both the CT Errata and the Revised Special Supplement 3: Missiles state the stardard missile is 5G6.

Sorry, I didn't check the errata.

Ok, so:

For example, the standard missile in Traveller is a 5G6 continuous burn (36 kg, Cr3,600, TL 8), mass sensing (1 kg, Cr1,000, TL 10), proximity detonator (1 kg, Cr500, TL 6), high explosive (10 kg, Cr500, TL 6) warhead missile ...