Book 2, version 3

[mike wightman]

Yep, and that also means low TL ships can achieve jump numbers from 1-6, whereas in HG TL15 is a requirement for jump 6.

I still think a reasonable explanation for this is that the LBB2 drives are only possible because the Imperium has a TL15 industrial base.

A culture which is achieving jump on their own for the first time must use the HG progression, but with the advantage of hindsight high jump numbers may be achieved at lower TLs, although imported parts from higher TL worlds would be necessary.

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, and that also means low TL ships can achieve jump numbers from 1-6, whereas in HG TL15 is a requirement for jump 6.

I still think a reasonable explanation for this is that the LBB2 drives are only possible because the Imperium has a TL15 industrial base.

A culture which is achieving jump on their own for the first time must use the HG progression, but with the advantage of hindsight high jump numbers may be achieved at lower TLs, although imported parts from higher TL worlds would be necessary.

 

[mike wightman]

On the subject of power plant fuel, why not just scrap it entirely?

 

[mike wightman]

On the subject of power plant fuel, why not just scrap it entirely?

 

[aramis]

1Td/Drive letter sounds far better.

But if doing that, why not go all the way to a Jfuel mass of 20Td/JDrive Letter for max jump

Take for example:
Drive A in 100 Ton hull takes 20 Tons fuel
Drive B in 100 Ton hull takes 40 tons fuel
But where it starts to make a difference is when you have higher letters in order to have more damage for the same rating; it ppenalizes this with additional J-Fuel requirements, as well as the additional drive volumes.


And Robject:
The Type S suffers for both the 20Td Bridge, and the 20Td PP Fuel. The Type S suffers a 36% volume penalty! 18Td ea for bridge minimum over percentage, and 18% for PPfuel over Bk5.

Since all sub-1000Td ships have 2% bridges rounded up to 20Td, that is a huge penalty. ALso, it gives us the pivot point. At 1000Td, Bk2 PP fuel is identical to HG: H*Pn*1%. Above that, bridges are rated at 2%, and fuel is less than that of HG.

Since supra-kiloton ships are fairly high tech in canonical Bk2.
1KTd is TL10
2KTd is TL11
3KTd is TL13
4KTd is TL15, as is 5KTd
6KTd should be doable, but isn't on the charts, so... not allowed!

 

[aramis]

1Td/Drive letter sounds far better.

But if doing that, why not go all the way to a Jfuel mass of 20Td/JDrive Letter for max jump

Take for example:
Drive A in 100 Ton hull takes 20 Tons fuel
Drive B in 100 Ton hull takes 40 tons fuel
But where it starts to make a difference is when you have higher letters in order to have more damage for the same rating; it ppenalizes this with additional J-Fuel requirements, as well as the additional drive volumes.


And Robject:
The Type S suffers for both the 20Td Bridge, and the 20Td PP Fuel. The Type S suffers a 36% volume penalty! 18Td ea for bridge minimum over percentage, and 18% for PPfuel over Bk5.

Since all sub-1000Td ships have 2% bridges rounded up to 20Td, that is a huge penalty. ALso, it gives us the pivot point. At 1000Td, Bk2 PP fuel is identical to HG: H*Pn*1%. Above that, bridges are rated at 2%, and fuel is less than that of HG.

Since supra-kiloton ships are fairly high tech in canonical Bk2.
1KTd is TL10
2KTd is TL11
3KTd is TL13
4KTd is TL15, as is 5KTd
6KTd should be doable, but isn't on the charts, so... not allowed!

 

[BillDowns]

On fuel usage, I would suggest basing it on Jump impulse or robject's jump units instead. A factor of 10 tons of fuel per 100 Jtons of impulse would cover it, wouldn't it?

 

[BillDowns]

On fuel usage, I would suggest basing it on Jump impulse or robject's jump units instead. A factor of 10 tons of fuel per 100 Jtons of impulse would cover it, wouldn't it?

 

[aramis]

That would preserve the Type S, and punish all larger designs, Bill.

Especially for those of us who have assumed all along that traveller drives were gravitic in nature.

 

[aramis]

That would preserve the Type S, and punish all larger designs, Bill.

Especially for those of us who have assumed all along that traveller drives were gravitic in nature.

 

[BillDowns]

Aramis, you're right. I ran some figures as shown:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Engineering Jump Potential
Impulse Tonnage Fuel 100 tonner 200 tonner 600 tonner 1200 tonner
200 10 20 2 1 0 0
400 15 40 4 2 0 0
800 25 80 8 4 1 0
1600 45 160 16 8 2 1
3200 85 320 32 16 5 2
6400 165 640 64 32 10 5</pre>[/QUOTE]So, I changed the formula to engine size * 2.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Engineering Jump Potential
Impulse Tonnage Fuel 100 tonner 200 tonner 600 tonner 1200 tonner
200 10 20 2 1 0 0
400 15 30 4 2 0 0
800 25 50 8 4 1 0
1600 45 90 16 8 2 1
3200 85 170 32 16 5 2
6400 165 330 64 32 10 5</pre>[/QUOTE]How does it look now? Please ignore the jumps over 6 - I didn't take the time to clean it up.

 

[BillDowns]

Aramis, you're right. I ran some figures as shown:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Engineering Jump Potential
Impulse Tonnage Fuel 100 tonner 200 tonner 600 tonner 1200 tonner
200 10 20 2 1 0 0
400 15 40 4 2 0 0
800 25 80 8 4 1 0
1600 45 160 16 8 2 1
3200 85 320 32 16 5 2
6400 165 640 64 32 10 5</pre>[/QUOTE]So, I changed the formula to engine size * 2.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Engineering Jump Potential
Impulse Tonnage Fuel 100 tonner 200 tonner 600 tonner 1200 tonner
200 10 20 2 1 0 0
400 15 30 4 2 0 0
800 25 50 8 4 1 0
1600 45 90 16 8 2 1
3200 85 170 32 16 5 2
6400 165 330 64 32 10 5</pre>[/QUOTE]How does it look now? Please ignore the jumps over 6 - I didn't take the time to clean it up.

 

[robject]

I was intending to preserve all hulls as-is through X, where X is some multiple of 1,000 Jump Units. At that point, the shallower slope intersects -- and in fact, that slope is shallower than High Guard, which may be bad.

I see that I've got a howling error, namely where the CT slope changes (from V to W). I've adjusted the slope accordingly, but the change is too drastic for High Guard.

Sigg is right; at drive letters W through Z we're talking about a different tech level.

Here's what I mean:

hvol = hull volume
jn = jump number

Drive letters A through V: 5t + 2.5% hvol x jn.

High Guard: 1% hvol x (jn+1)

Drive letters W+: appx 100t + 0.2% hvol * jn (actually it's two different slopes, but who's counting?)

Examples:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Ship volume jump drive vol
200t HG 4 10t
200t B2 4 25t (B)

1000t HG 4 50t
1000t B2 4 110t (W)

---

1500t HG 4 75t
1500t B2 4 115t (X)

---

2000t HG 4 100t
2000t B2 4 120t (Y)

---

3000t HG 4 150t
3000t B2 4 125t! (Z)

100kt HG 4 5000t
100kt "B2" 4 900t!</pre>[/QUOTE]So, Book 2 is decidedly low-tech with its jump drives before letter W, then its slope flattens dramatically. It doesn't pass High Guard until letter Z, but it passes it at a good clip.

I'd guesstimate that "formula 1" J-drives (including A through V) are TL9-12, High Guard J-drives are TL13-15, and "formula 2+" J-drives (including W through Z and beyond) are "not possible" in the Imperium.

If that were true, then the larger Book 2 ships will all be broken.

Oh, yeah, I forgot -- most of the large Book 2 ships are Book 2 version 1, which means they're already broken.

 

[robject]

I was intending to preserve all hulls as-is through X, where X is some multiple of 1,000 Jump Units. At that point, the shallower slope intersects -- and in fact, that slope is shallower than High Guard, which may be bad.

I see that I've got a howling error, namely where the CT slope changes (from V to W). I've adjusted the slope accordingly, but the change is too drastic for High Guard.

Sigg is right; at drive letters W through Z we're talking about a different tech level.

Here's what I mean:

hvol = hull volume
jn = jump number

Drive letters A through V: 5t + 2.5% hvol x jn.

High Guard: 1% hvol x (jn+1)

Drive letters W+: appx 100t + 0.2% hvol * jn (actually it's two different slopes, but who's counting?)

Examples:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Ship volume jump drive vol
200t HG 4 10t
200t B2 4 25t (B)

1000t HG 4 50t
1000t B2 4 110t (W)

---

1500t HG 4 75t
1500t B2 4 115t (X)

---

2000t HG 4 100t
2000t B2 4 120t (Y)

---

3000t HG 4 150t
3000t B2 4 125t! (Z)

100kt HG 4 5000t
100kt "B2" 4 900t!</pre>[/QUOTE]So, Book 2 is decidedly low-tech with its jump drives before letter W, then its slope flattens dramatically. It doesn't pass High Guard until letter Z, but it passes it at a good clip.

I'd guesstimate that "formula 1" J-drives (including A through V) are TL9-12, High Guard J-drives are TL13-15, and "formula 2+" J-drives (including W through Z and beyond) are "not possible" in the Imperium.

If that were true, then the larger Book 2 ships will all be broken.

Oh, yeah, I forgot -- most of the large Book 2 ships are Book 2 version 1, which means they're already broken.

 

[daryen]

Nah, most Book 2 ships are fine. The only real problem is the A2, which is broken with the 61 dton cargo version. The 46 dton cargo version is just fine. (They are bizarrely mixed in Supp7.) IIRC, all the ships provided in TTB add up. Designs might be a bit screwy (310+ dton fuel on the Type M?), but they add up.

As to your bigger point, the best example of just how bad the larger Book 2 ships can be, take a gander at the Type TJ from TTA. You flat out can't build it under any system other than Book 2.

 

[daryen]

Nah, most Book 2 ships are fine. The only real problem is the A2, which is broken with the 61 dton cargo version. The 46 dton cargo version is just fine. (They are bizarrely mixed in Supp7.) IIRC, all the ships provided in TTB add up. Designs might be a bit screwy (310+ dton fuel on the Type M?), but they add up.

As to your bigger point, the best example of just how bad the larger Book 2 ships can be, take a gander at the Type TJ from TTA. You flat out can't build it under any system other than Book 2.

 

[mike wightman]

Canonical CT ship designs are very mixed up.

You can't build the x-boat under LBB2r, the lab ship, and A2 are LBB2 1st ed. designs, as is the text of the Al Morai world class trader (although as daryen points out the boxed text for the A2 is for a LBB2r design).

Most of the other CT ships transcribe from 1st ed. to revised with a minimum of fuss, although the power plant size rule does affect the subsidised liner.

 

[mike wightman]

Canonical CT ship designs are very mixed up.

You can't build the x-boat under LBB2r, the lab ship, and A2 are LBB2 1st ed. designs, as is the text of the Al Morai world class trader (although as daryen points out the boxed text for the A2 is for a LBB2r design).

Most of the other CT ships transcribe from 1st ed. to revised with a minimum of fuss, although the power plant size rule does affect the subsidised liner.

 

[robject]

Most of the TTA large ships, IIRC, have one or another thing wrong with them. And the MK is a mess: the text says one thing, and the HG stats say something completely different (i.e. two different ships). But that's okay. The ships we generally worry over are the small ones.

The Xboat is a "problem" I've been brooooding over. Problem meaning "can't build it" (or is that "plenty of space left over for a power plant and a turret"?).

 

[robject]

Most of the TTA large ships, IIRC, have one or another thing wrong with them. And the MK is a mess: the text says one thing, and the HG stats say something completely different (i.e. two different ships). But that's okay. The ships we generally worry over are the small ones.

The Xboat is a "problem" I've been brooooding over. Problem meaning "can't build it" (or is that "plenty of space left over for a power plant and a turret"?).