Book Two Fleets

[creativehum]

Something to consider when discussing this article is Andy Slack's reason for building ships from Book 2 and not concerning himself with Book 5.

Here is a passage from the article:

As can be seen the fleet has quite a realistic feel, and requires only a few hours work designing the couriers, carriers, tankers and assault carriers. In fact, most of this work can be skipped since only the courier is likely to appear in a scenario - a band might well be hired to hijack it to find the composition and route of its parent fleet.

[emphasis added]

And here is a a note appended to the end of the article when they were collected:

AUTHOR'S NOTES
In 1984 my twin daughters were born, and suddenly the time I had used to design ships (amongst other things) went away for ever. This started me down a path of ruthless simplification in all my gaming, of which this was the first result. I came to the conclusion that designing new starships, while fun, essentially contributed nothing to the game - that the standard designs provide everything you need to run a role-playing campaign, and that the details of any ship much over a thousand tons just don't matter. Your Mileage May Vary...

[emphasis added]

There are countless ways to approach RPG play as a whole, approach specific RPGs, and approach the needs of a specific group. One of those might be called, "What is realistic?" (With, of course, the caveat that what is 'realistic' about non-realist things can vary wildly between people and groups.) Another approach might be, "What do we need for the kind of play we want at the table?"

Slack points out that what he wants from Traveller and for his table is "role-playing campaign" about a "band" of player-characters. Even if there are huge ships in the setting he's created they have little bearing on a game focused on Player Characters having adventures. They exist perhaps, but there's no need to deal with them since they have no bearing on what he wants from Traveller.

So he will not concern himself with the more complex ship design tools and rules found in Book 5. As he writes: "the standard designs [found in Book 2] provide everything you need to run a role-playing campaign." He is picking the right tools for the job for what he wants (a roleplaying campaign focused on a band of adventurers).

He is making no claim that this is the "right" way to do these thing. He is stating he knows what he wants. He is cutting out concerns and additional game elements and keeping the standard design elements that cater to exactly what he is looking to do at his game table.

 

[Brandon C]

My milage varies considerably.

Book 2 designs are easy and fast to do. Deck plans are hard and slow, which is why I stopped doing them in the 80's. Anyway, I don't use miniatures so plans on par with the officials aren't needed in my campaign.

The standard designs are insufficient for the types of campaigns I run. I have no interest in GMing merchants or pirates, so several ships are no more useful to me than a 5000 ton battle cruiser. Ideally I would use an explorer larger than the scout/courier or a mercenary carrier smaller than the mercenary cruiser.

 

[nobby-w]

Sounds like a perfect match for modular construction, then assemble those vacuum tight modules to make your ship.

Funny you should say that.

At one point I did some sketches of ships constructed just like that. They had interior modules that were sealable, often multiple levels high. The exterior of the hull was shielding over the modules and various conduits and other systems just left in vacuum.

A streamlined hull would be sealed but not necessarily pressurised, with the pressurised modules holding atmosphere.

 

[McPerth]

Something to consider when discussing this article is Andy Slack's reason for building ships from Book 2 and not concerning himself with Book 5.

As can be seen the fleet has quite a realistic feel, and requires only a few hours work designing the couriers, carriers, tankers and assault carriers. In fact, most of this work can be skipped since only the courier is likely to appear in a scenario - a band might well be hired to hijack it to find the composition and route of its parent fleet.
Here is a passage from the article:

[emphasis added]

And here is a a note appended to the end of the article when they were collected:

AUTHOR'S NOTES
In 1984 my twin daughters were born, and suddenly the time I had used to design ships (amongst other things) went away for ever. This started me down a path of ruthless simplification in all my gaming, of which this was the first result. I came to the conclusion that designing new starships, while fun, essentially contributed nothing to the game - that the standard designs provide everything you need to run a role-playing campaign, and that the details of any ship much over a thousand tons just don't matter. Your Mileage May Vary...

[emphasis added]

There are countless ways to approach RPG play as a whole, approach specific RPGs, and approach the needs of a specific group. One of those might be called, "What is realistic?" (With, of course, the caveat that what is 'realistic' about non-realist things can vary wildly between people and groups.) Another approach might be, "What do we need for the kind of play we want at the table?"

Slack points out that what he wants from Traveller and for his table is "role-playing campaign" about a "band" of player-characters. Even if there are huge ships in the setting he's created they have little bearing on a game focused on Player Characters having adventures. They exist perhaps, but there's no need to deal with them since they have no bearing on what he wants from Traveller.

So he will not concern himself with the more complex ship design tools and rules found in Book 5. As he writes: "the standard designs [found in Book 2] provide everything you need to run a role-playing campaign." He is picking the right tools for the job for what he wants (a roleplaying campaign focused on a band of adventurers).

He is making no claim that this is the "right" way to do these thing. He is stating he knows what he wants. He is cutting out concerns and additional game elements and keeping the standard design elements that cater to exactly what he is looking to do at his game table.

I could not agree more...

The first thing to considere qhen you're designing ships is why do you need them. For RPG, LBB2 (both ship design and combat), but if what you want is fleet combats (or strategical games) it is too detailed.

Of course, ship combat and design systems must go in tandem if they are to work. While LBB2 allows for ships up to 5000 dtons, any combat incluiding 50 turrets (so up to 150 weapons) with its 50 gunners, will be (at best) teidous, and (IMHO) the game will not be operative, being thought for quite smaller ships (as is Mayday).

 

[aramis]

The quote is from '81 revised LBB:2 - the same quote can be found in every CT edition.

I really must get round to getting the updated FFE CT cd rom (is it on USB drive as well now?), I got my CD before the '77 edition was included so if I want to quote from 77 edition I have to copy type

Shipping plus cost of drive, IIRC, free if ordering another on same media.
Make note of the request in the comments field.

A lot depends on the threat vector.

Most armour on battleships tended to be plastered on the sides, and layered on top to proportionally limit damage.

Traveler warships have almost all around protection.

While the rules read that way... it's probably not the truth in the underlying setting.

In combat, the battle "line" wants to keep the front facing the enemy... which means you can probably consider the front to be thicker than the rear.

 

[Brandon C]

Of course, ship combat and design systems must go in tandem if they are to work. While LBB2 allows for ships up to 5000 dtons, any combat incluiding 50 turrets (so up to 150 weapons) with its 50 gunners, will be (at best) teidous, and (IMHO) the game will not be operative, being thought for quite smaller ships (as is Mayday).

Honestly, the ship combat system is better in Book 5 than Book 2, at least for me. In particular, since I don't use miniatures, vector movement is unnecessary, and damage to ships is handled a bit more realistically I would like a 'medium' range for the Book 5 system.

 

[McPerth]

Honestly, the ship combat system is better in Book 5 than Book 2, at least for me. In particular, since I don't use miniatures, vector movement is unnecessary, and damage to ships is handled a bit more realistically I would like a 'medium' range for the Book 5 system.

And I can even agree with you if the intent is fleet combat, but as for adventurer's parties, with small ships and when focus should be put in the players and their skill use, IMHO it does not work (neither is it thought for that, so that's not a criticism).

That's why I said the first thing to do is to state what's the ship system (be it design or combat) intent.

 

[infojunky]

I did a deconstruction of Bk 2 small craft and created a Bk 2-like design system that lets you build such craft as you like. The system recreates the Bk 2 designs; not perfectly, but close.

I have put the system in the Files Library, http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=581530#post581530

Cool! And a Article of Mr. Pick that I hadn't read...

 

[infojunky]

He is making no claim that this is the "right" way to do these thing. He is stating he knows what he wants. He is cutting out concerns and additional game elements and keeping the standard design elements that cater to exactly what he is looking to do at his game table.

Honestly I was just marveling at the idea, and wondering if anyone had wandered down this path. It isn't a call to do anything but consider the idea and maybe it's implications in a game.

The ships of a book 2 fleet look different feel different than the ships of a Book 5 fleet, just from the differing TL considerations, even if you use similar size limits. The difference is akin to Aircraft vs. Battleships in flavor.

A amusing exercise along lines of my question, look at the ship's as described in the Various CT Alien Books. A fair number of 800 to 1000 dTon Cruisers, which by extension makes the Kinunir look like a viable concern.

 

[martletsquire]

Okay, here's my take on LBB2 ships.

Any commercial net fishing ship yard can currently make something akin to a Liberty ship, or the steamer equivalent. Some yards can build faster, some only build slower. All using commercial components (engines, nav systems, cargo handling equipment, major fittings like bulkhead or watertight doors and portholes and hatches and and and. Up to about 200' is the max of most yards, maybe longer, maybe shorter.

Only a few specialty yards can put out warships or specialty liners or big arsed freighters.

So, I always understood it that there are two paths to ship construction: one based on 'commercial off the shelf'(COTS); and one based on custom and special order components.

The advantage of a COTS ship is, well, your PowerPlant B goes bleh, you pull into a yard and have a new standard PPB installed, or order one from Sears or Amazon and have it shipped to you and you install it yourself (if you or your crew has the engineering chops, or the system you are in has a roving group of yard engineers running around (hey, don't laugh, there are places where this is a real thing, and remember that fishing boat analogy? Well, watch "Deadliest Catch" and half the time the yard work is being done by the crew with help from either the yard or, yep, a roving group of engineers/ship fitters.)

So, in the backwater systems of Dictator X, there are 3 yards or manufacturing complexes capable of up to 5,000dt, with a supply of various drives and standard COTS weapon turrets and fittings. Sure, he can spend money on ex-Imperial stuff, or he can build that 5kdt jump-monitor with 50 turrets and room for troops, ammo, supplies and stuff so he can go get another backwater only defended by some ex-scouts and armed free-traders.

Dictator X will roll over the opposition using just LBB2 style COTS ships. But wait, the PDQsers attack with ex-Zhod TL13 High Guard vessels and basically eat them for lunch. (The equivalent of some freighters with lots of machine guns or light cannon being attacked by a squadron of 6 ex USSR fast missile boats. Sure, if the boats get close they might get tagged, but if they stand off and pound them with their 'missile bays' then the game is up.)

Then there are the law level systems that won't allow advanced mil-tech on any ships in their system, besides their own and, of course, the sector or ImpNavy. Thus, the system, armed with HG system defense boats, has a significant upper hand on any 'merchant princes' who might get uppity, unless the merchant prince decides to bring their own HG ships, at which point the system whines to Papa (ImpNavy) and gets them to enforce the law level/system requirements.

Low Level (not low tech, but not big giant) Merc Units might like LBB2 ships due to the ease of repair/replacement and more acceptance by systems for the 'fleet' to pass through hopefully without causing any problems.

Does this make sense or have I been exposed to low oxy levels for too long?

 

[boomslang]

Honestly I was just marveling at the idea, and wondering if anyone had wandered down this path. It isn't a call to do anything but consider the idea and maybe it's implications in a game.

The ships of a book 2 fleet look different feel different than the ships of a Book 5 fleet, just from the differing TL considerations, even if you use similar size limits. The difference is akin to Aircraft vs. Battleships in flavor.

A amusing exercise along lines of my question, look at the ship's as described in the Various CT Alien Books. A fair number of 800 to 1000 dTon Cruisers, which by extension makes the Kinunir look like a viable concern.

One thing I have done in my small-ship, B2 TU is to fall back upon earlier nomenclature for vessels. There are no "cruisers" or "destroyers" or "battleships" to be found IMTU.

100-200 dton starships are typically "sloops" or "brigantines", 200-400 dtons are "caravels" while 400-600 dtons are called "carracks", and 800 dtons or more are fat "galleons'. Jump-1 tends toward the high end of a given class displacement range, Jump-2 tend to skew toward the lower end. Jump-3-or-better might earn the monicker "clipper", to distinguish them.

I then borrow an idea from Mithras and limit turret sizes: civilian/commercial ships are restricted to single turrets, paramilitary vessels such as Scout ships, mercenary craft, and ships holding Mail contracts are permitted double turrets, and only fully-commissioned military vessels may mount triple turrets.

Thus, when the players' 200-dton far trader caravel mounting perhaps a couple of beam lasers goes up against an 800-dton naval galleon that has been upgunned into a "Man-of-War" (mount 8 triple turrets and carry at least two dozen Fighters for a total of 30-something hardpoints and in the neighborhood of 100 weapons carried in total), it is some serious peril for Our Heroes.

OTOH, given that B2 planetary defenses typically consist of large numbers of triple laser turrets, and the fact that those turrets may be repaired in combat, planetary assaults are very difficult and planetary blockades are commonplace.

The only bits I borrow from HG are fibre-optic-only computers (which are in HG1, actually), the procedure for field repairs, EP for powerplant output and therefore (actual) fuel usage and computer/lasers supportable, and the auxiliary tankage options from TCS -- because they are all fun and add color. (I also use the 1977 edition of B2 Hit Locations in space combat, which eliminates the Critical Hit, but that is more of a personal preference than a House Rule.)

 

[creativehum]

Honestly I was just marveling at the idea, and wondering if anyone had wandered down this path. It isn't a call to do anything but consider the idea and maybe it's implications in a game.

The ships of a book 2 fleet look different feel different than the ships of a Book 5 fleet, just from the differing TL considerations, even if you use similar size limits. The difference is akin to Aircraft vs. Battleships in flavor.

A amusing exercise along lines of my question, look at the ship's as described in the Various CT Alien Books. A fair number of 800 to 1000 dTon Cruisers, which by extension makes the Kinunir look like a viable concern.

My post wasn't directed to you at all. I was addressing people who were dismissing the exercised because "Big ships need to be such-and-such..." or "For fleet action we need this-and-this to be available."

Keep in mind I'm one of the guys who things Book 2 is all one one needs. I look at the two ships the PCs might start with randomly during character creation -- a 100 ton ship and a 200 ton ship respectively. I'm more than willing to believe that a 1200 - 2000 ton ship will, by comparison, be very scary. Add since the rules cover ships ranging u to 5000 tons and I'm pretty sure I can cover most types of interstellar naval actions and ships I might ever need.

I think your exercise is terrific. And I think it would produce solid work that would certainly meet the needs of any Classic Traveller game I would ever run. I my view (not "right," simply my preference) I could always build fleets from the Book 2 rules -- because that is what they are there to do.

 

[Condottiere]

I'm sure someone will figure out how to manufacture commercial modulated vessels that can be put together out of the box.

 

[Brandon C]

Let's go back to the 5000 ton ship with 150 lasers for a minute. There is a way to handle it without making too many rolls.

First, weapons of the same type (beam laser, pulse laser, missile rack) in a turret fire linked, not individually. Three give a +2 to hit and allows two damage rolls. Two give a +1 to hit and allows one damage roll (one gives no bonus and allows one damage roll).

Next, determine how many turrets of the same type and armament are firing at the target. There is an additional to hit bonus equal to the square root of the number of turrets committed, minus one (sqrt(# turrets)-1). The number of damage rolls from the first step is multiplied by the number of turrets firing.

So, in the example above, the ship is firing 50 triple laser turrets. A triple laser turret is worth a +2 to hit and 2 damage rolls. Fifty turrets give an additional +6 to hit (+8 total) and x50 damage rolls (100 rolls total).

At the referee's option, a single damage roll can represent up to ten hits, simply increase the damage to the location rolled.

So, the 150 lasers can be reduced to one to hit roll and as few as ten damage rolls.

 

[boomslang]

So, the 150 lasers can be reduced to one to hit roll and as few as ten damage rolls.

Statistical combat resolution was introduced back in TCS and such approaches are still a perfectly workable way to do things, but here decades later there are all sort of desktop (spreadsheets, for example) and online tools (ask your favorite search engine) that can generate large numbers of dice rolls with one click.

So it can come down to simply a matter of taste as to how you prefer to crunch your numbers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Next, determine how many turrets of the same type and armament are firing at the target. There is an additional to hit bonus equal to the number of turrets committed, minus one. The number of damage rolls from the first step is multiplied by the number of turrets firing.

Bad idea, this just means that all attacks will hit automatically. Both a bonus to hit and multiplying the hits is way too good.

With Select running several similar enemy ships would be automatically knocked out every round.

 

[infojunky]

One thing I have done in my small-ship, B2 TU is to fall back upon earlier nomenclature for vessels. There are no "cruisers" or "destroyers" or "battleships" to be found IMTU.

Honestly I am very tempted to to steal from Transhuman Space for my ship classification scheme, though Ian Bank's system from the Culture series is attractive as well.

I then borrow an idea from Mithras and limit turret sizes: civilian/commercial ships are restricted to single turrets, paramilitary vessels such as Scout ships, mercenary craft, and ships holding Mail contracts are permitted double turrets, and only fully-commissioned military vessels may mount triple turrets.

Thus, when the players' 200-dton far trader caravel mounting perhaps a couple of beam lasers goes up against an 800-dton naval galleon that has been upgunned into a "Man-of-War" (mount 8 triple turrets and carry at least two dozen Fighters for a total of 30-something hardpoints and in the neighborhood of 100 weapons carried in total), it is some serious peril for Our Heroes.

Honestly, I generally think of weapons mounts in the terms of Mayday. Thus multiple weapon turrets are more likely to hit.

But when it comes to limiting weapons I tend to limit Commercial ships to 2 or 3 hardpoints. As for military ships i tend to equip them with single and double turrets.

(I also use the 1977 edition of B2 Hit Locations in space combat, which eliminates the Critical Hit, but that is more of a personal preference than a House Rule.)

I have been using the later editions damage table, but the Boom! Ship blows up result is off the table for PC ships.

 

[infojunky]

My post wasn't directed to you at all. I was addressing people who were dismissing the exercised because "Big ships need to be such-and-such..." or "For fleet action we need this-and-this to be available."

No challenge was taken, I was just clarifying my stance on the topic.

Keep in mind I'm one of the guys who things Book 2 is all one one needs. I look at the two ships the PCs might start with randomly during character creation -- a 100 ton ship and a 200 ton ship respectively. I'm more than willing to believe that a 1200 - 2000 ton ship will, by comparison, be very scary. Add since the rules cover ships ranging u to 5000 tons and I'm pretty sure I can cover most types of interstellar naval actions and ships I might ever need.

I can honestly say that While I have handed out some fairly large (1000 to 4000 dTons) ships to PCs over the years, they have all fallen into the Commercial to Scientific types, and I have the largest thing I have ever directly threatened them with is Some version of the 800 to 1000 ton cruisers.

I think your exercise is terrific. And I think it would produce solid work that would certainly meet the needs of any Classic Traveller game I would ever run. I my view (not "right," simply my preference) I could always build fleets from the Book 2 rules -- because that is what they are there to do.

I am still quite enamoured with the question myself. It is a great launching point for a lot of development of a small ship game. Which in light of all the Proto-Traveller discussions the topic needs to be kicked around some.

 

[Ex_Pendable]

Spoiler:

I'm sure someone will figure out how to manufacture commercial modulated vessels that can be put together out of the box.

I don't see why not, there's a flat-pack truck.

http://oxgvt.com/the-ox-all-terrain-vehicle/

Until then, there will be the Frankenstein-class ships - where different parts from other ships are cobbled together to form a working ship.

 

[flykiller]

[/QUOTE]

needs a zsu-23-4 on top ....