Camouflaged weapons

[Blue Ghost]

How would camouflaged weapons manifest themselves in Traveller? What kind of defensive DM (if any) would the owner of a camo-weapon get? How much would it cost?

In the real world does painting your weapon really help all that much?

I'm just curious.

 

[bryan gibson]

In the real world does painting your weapon really help all that much?
.............................................
camoflaged weapons don't really so much hide the weapon as add to the overall effect. Basically, the idea is to prevent the wepons shape giving you away.
DMs I think would be a non issue- if the guy is maintaining the weapon, well, he is getting whatever DM already, weapon or no. And when you fire the weapon, (unmasking) then he's exposed anyway, unless he's using a suppressed weapon in which case his DM is covered not in camo but in being harder to spot- again, part of the existing camo.

........................................
How much would it cost?


now, this is not necessarilt a dumb question...I mean, after all, an ACR or rifle, what have you, well...the cost is a can of krylon and some burlap or whatever else you use.

HOWEVER, the matter changes a LOT when you are talking a weapon intended to be used with a chamelon suit, for example...after all, if the weapon doesnt spoof along with the suit, you get this disembodied ACR just sort of snooping around. Dangerous as well as embarassing!

Such a package , which would either be an add on or built into the weapon could be quite costly, depending on how advanced it is, but I couldn't guess what the cost might be.

 

[clementk]

I suggest watching Ghost in the Shell (Manga Video) and/or reading the collected manga tpb by Masamune Shirow from Dark Horse. It has several good examples of chameleon type suits, well more skinsuits or ponchos, in use (i.e. in firefights) in fairly believable settings. An excellent story, well thought out tech, and while it has some post-cyberpunk elements the story could work as a springboard for a Traveller or 2300AD adventure.

American DVD site
Dark Horse profile for the TPB

I can't remember if any of Shirow's other works have similar tech, hmmm think it's time I reread them.

Casey

 

[far-trader]

I can see a general chameleon sheath for weapons, probably in three versions. A short version for small arms, a medium version for medium arms, and a long version for large arms.

Chameleon Weapon Sheath:

The sheath consists of a soft tube of chameleon ballistic fabric narrow at the barrel end and wider through the rest, allowing easy covered access to the grip and trigger through hand holes with sleeves covering past the wrist. A bag on the bottom allows collection of spent casings with multiple access seals for magazine changing. A single magazine may also be carried and changed entirely within the cover if the sheath is large enough for an accessory and none are mounted. A cover on the top of the long versions allow for adding advanced sighting aids.

The user plugs the sheath into the chameleon armor worn through a wrist connection which provides the power and display driver. It is not very effective alone but offers some benefit in general protection and muffling of the weapon signature.

Available in three general sizes each sheath also serves as a sturdy carry case and can be sealed against the environment.

TL12 models (compatible with TL12 Chameleon Armor):

Short Sheath - Cr100 wt. 0.1kg

Suitable for small arms including handguns with an added shoulder stock or silencer and smgs or carbines with a folded stock.

Medium Sheath - Cr300 wt. 0.3kg

Suitable for medium arms without accessories and including handguns with an added shoulder stock and silencer, and smgs or carbines with a full stock.

Long Sheath - Cr500 wt. 0.5kg

Suitable for large arms and including medium arms with accessories such as grenade launchers, suppressers and advanced sights.

TL14 models (compatible with TL14 Chameleon Armor):

Identical to the above except the prices are 5x those shown.

Psionic Shielding may be added to any of the above for Cr400 to prevent psionic tampering with the weapon.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thanks all. Some very insightful replies.

far-trader, you ought to do a write up of that equipment, and submit it to the Journal.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
far-trader, you ought to do a write up of that equipment, and submit it to the Journal.

Thanks for the praise, but it's pretty much complete as is (I think) and too short for much of a submission. Maybe with a little more detail or some other ideas, but it seems everytime I start work on a project like that my com98s7c[- starts to act al098c df;DF 'ios <FATAL SYSTEM ERROR>

 

[JAFARR]

If camo does not work, military outfits all over the world must be wasting a lot of money for nothing by providing camo to so many of their units. Look at some hunting magazines in the USA to get additional ideas. (Some of these are REALLY money wasters, but you can't convience those who spend the money on them of that.)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

bryan,
My old referee would have a very embarassing story to tell of a character of mine, concerning his misinterpretation of my desired application of my character's skills in self-camouflage. Let's just say that you are not far off.

Far-trader,
Where are chameleon suits found? I can't find the things in my LBBs.
Would the bag be silenced (somehow), or would you just have to assume the user was smart enough to use a silencer?
But, I like...

Andy,
Camo does work, but not as well as some people seem to think. :lol:

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, and Ghost, I think a DM for surprise or concealment might be in order, but not for combat.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Far-trader,
Where are chameleon suits found? I can't find the things in my LBBs.

Book 5: Mercenary makes reference to cameleon, but this only selectively filters IR. Many GMs has additional house rules that allow for more advanced forms of cameleon, a la 'Predator'.

To address the original question, camouflaging weapons is routine for snipers.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's interesting. My gut says there'd be a DM out beyond medium range, and probably a surprise DM as well, but nothing much beyond that.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Initial surprise can even be at extremely close range. There is more than one story of downed fliers evading capture in Vietnam where the enemy was literally standing right on top of them, but didn't notice them. The key was they did everything right - didn't look like a human shape, covered the parts that don't blend in (hands, face), and stayed absolutely still.

The camo helps with two of those three things.

 

[kaladorn]

Good call, Fritz.

Optical camouflage (as opposed to IR, which is another thing entirely) involves breaking up your silhouette. The human eye is great at picking out regularized features and lines of a human body or a weapon out from the shapes of foliage. So, your goal, in Monty Python Learning-To-Hide style, is to break up the visual appearance of a regularized outline. Hence the camouflage paint, netting, the attachment of various twigs, moss, etc (scrimmage) to the body and most especially to the nice regularly rounded helmet and your weapon - these things break up the outline and make you hard to separate from the surrounding foliage.

Two things to keep in mind:

Camouflage for an alien boulder field may be very different than camouflage for an arid desert or from that used in mountains or prairies or rain forests.

I watched some Royal Marine Commando snipers training and they actually retuned their camo on the fly to match the surrounding bush, even within a given square km of area there was a lot of variance.

The other funny thing is many 'Hollywood' camo patterns for the face (especially) are horrendous - they serve to accentuate the shape/look, rather than disguise it - you are trying to remove the familiar look, but also to visually raise the low spots and lower the raised spots.

It is amazing (having done the infantry thing and having played a lot of paintball) how easy it is to pick out a hand or face (uncamouflaged skin) from an otherwise camouflaged person. Or to pick out an uncamouflaged weapon of someone hiding in a thicket. OTOH, fully camo'd and with my weapon camouflaged, I've had a patrol walk by me no further than 3m away, me out in the open (but lying face down when I realized how scr*wed I was...) on a bright sunny day, and none of them saw me.

I am told that scrimmage or netting which enhances visual camouflage may disrupt the IR camouflage of modern BDUs, but I'm not sure if I believe that or not. And even if it is true, the odds of someone having eyes-on with optical means exceeds the threat from NVGs in many situations. It could be an old wives tale too....

 

[Blue Ghost]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Initial surprise can even be at extremely close range. There is more than one story of downed fliers evading capture in Vietnam where the enemy was literally standing right on top of them, but didn't notice them. The key was they did everything right - didn't look like a human shape, covered the parts that don't blend in (hands, face), and stayed absolutely still.

The camo helps with two of those three things.

I guess what I was trying to say was that a camouflaged weapon would help give the surpsie and target DMs at close range, but, once the owner of the weapon revealed himself he probably wouldn't gain any defensive DM any closer than long range. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Spot on, there, Ghost.

Along these lines, though, how easy is it to "supress" a Gauss rifle (as one of the things that would go in this camo sac)? A Gauss needle at subsonic wouldn't be terribly impressive, I think, but the only give away would BE the supersonic crack....

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Spot on, there, Ghost.

Along these lines, though, how easy is it to "supress" a Gauss rifle (as one of the things that would go in this camo sac)? A Gauss needle at subsonic wouldn't be terribly impressive, I think, but the only give away would BE the supersonic crack....

A gauss weapon might produce noise due to waste energy in sparks and the like, but there's nothing inherent in the gauss acceleration process that requires it to be noisy. However, gauss weapons will produce a strong pulse of radio waves when fired, which will be a problem against foes with sensors designed to spot such a signature.

 

[far-trader]

Thanks Corejob, I couldn't recall the first listing, figured either Mercenary (LBBook 4 actually ) or Striker, or maybe a JTAS article. In any case for the above I was going with the latest incarnation of it from T20 (pg. 207, 209, and 236). I don't see it as quite as keen as Predator style adaptive camo, called 'looking glass' in some circles iirc. More of a high tech camo paint. A number of optical receptors paired with a number of displays to 'see' and then copy for display a facsimile of the local environ. With of course the added benefit of IR sig matching if the suit is sealed and life support equipped, though this function is limited in duration and scope depeding on a lot of factors.

As for silencing, nope, not beyond perhaps muffling the limited (usually) noise of the action and receiver.

FF&S allowed dialing down the power feed to the rail of Gauss weapons to slow the muzzle velocity to subsonic, effectively rendering it suppressed, but reducing range and damage some.

 

[kaladorn]

Subsonic needle would do less damage and have less penetration I'd think.

In MT terms, not using appropriate camouflage techniques would make spotting an ambush a simpler task. Making some sort of recon or surival skill roll to vetter your own position beforehand isn't a bad idea. Then, if you made it, make the enemies spotting task one level harder. If you blew it, make it normal difficulty (you tried to hide, you just did a bad job, queue the Monty Python voice saying "Better, but still not good enough" - BOOM).

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
If camo does not work, military outfits all over the world must be wasting a lot of money for nothing by providing camo to so many of their units. Look at some hunting magazines in the USA to get additional ideas. (Some of these are REALLY money wasters, but you can't convience those who spend the money on them of that.)

Yes.
Cammo has to be carefully matched to the environment to be any good- look how quickly the US Army's "chocolate chip" desert cammo (perfect for Arizona) was replaced by the bland 3 color desert cammo back in 1991. Then we fought through Iraq in dark green and brown chem suits.

Back in the 1950s the Army did major tests and found that olive green worked as well as anything at over 100m. At that distance the new MARPAT and ACU patterns blur together into Olive Green. And OG fatigues are the preferred base for a ghillie suit.

But troops fight better with special uniforms. In the eighteenth century bright colors and shiny brass. Today green and brown blotches. The new, blue USAF and USN cammos don't even pretend to conceal anything except grease stains.

(An exception: Crye multicam)

 

[womble]

The supersonic crack of an incoming round is extremely hard to localise, since it comes from where the bullet is, and is loudest when it's nearest. I don't think it'd be a problem for a sniper.