Canon 3. What is the OTU?

[robject]

Specifically, what is the OTU, distinct from the core elements of Traveller?

I think it has two elements:

• The Timeline
• The Traveller Wiki

Don's timeline is a chronological index into canon. It points to data entries which essentially form a kind of distributed library data. The Traveller Wiki consolidates that data into one location.

 

[mike wightman]

To quote Don:

The OTU is whatever MWM says it is.

And therein lies the rub. Marc didn't write most of canon.

Check out the credits for the CT material, you will also see Frank Chadwick, Loren Wiseman et al. DGP then took over writing the canon (and made a lot of wrong assumptions about the Imperium in the process IMHO) for the MT era.
TNE was Frank Chadwick and Dave Nilsen et al, no MWM since he had left GDW by this time.

Then you have the articles in JTAS that people think are canonical but aren't, they are fanon unless authorised.

The Traveller OTU has long been due for a complete re-boot, but this time with major canon points laid out from the start.

T5 may be MWM's definitive set of rules - when it is finished - but it does the same job of obfuscating the Imperium as a setting as the complicated, contradictory mess that is previous edition canon. He needs to produce a setting book.
Problem is the next Third Imperium setting book will be MgT based, so get set for yet more prior-canon conflicts.

While I agree that the timeline may be considered canonical there are inconsistencies - the age of the empress wave for example, and its total lack of effect on the Zhodani core expeditions until retconned. A timeline that is retconned means it is a canon conflict in itself.

Unless you adopt the 'latest edition trumps all' approach - which has one obvious failing (other than the technology paradigm changes between editions) in that some of the early canon makes a lot more sense for the setting than the later stuff. And I have noted that the latest version of T5 removed the few setting hints that exist in the published book.

There is no OTU separate to the ruleset that describes it - each ruleset changes assumptions and characteristics of the setting, and while there are similarities some of the subtle differences are dealbreakers .

T5 should move forward to the Galaxiad era and leave the third Imperium to MGT.

Heretical statement I know, but is time to stop flogging the crater where the corpse of the horse was with regards to reconciling the mess that is previous canon and write new stuff.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[robject]

If that's a rant, then it's one of the calmest, most reasonable rants I've seen in awhile.

 

[robject]

So I grepped out the publishers and page references out of Don's Timeline. It wasn't a perfect job, but it's good enough for analysis.

He has around 300 sources documented.

 

[atpollard]

If that's a rant, then it's one of the calmest, most reasonable rants I've seen in awhile.

an emoticon might help ... :rant:

 

[whartung]

So I grepped out the publishers and page references out of Don's Timeline. It wasn't a perfect job, but it's good enough for analysis.

He has around 300 sources documented.

And I agree with Mike, and this is why.

Casual one offs meant to color some corner of an adventure becomes sacrosanct.

Me in my Ivory Tower would decree if there were to be a reboot, then the mechanics of the Universe would be Settled first, the rules updated to reflect those mechanics, then the NeoImperium built with those mechanics as foundation.

Simply, I want the physics settled. I want rules that reflect those physics as practically as possible, and I want the setting built up on that foundation.

That means I want Jump explained. M-Drive explained. Gravitics explained. Black globes, psionics, fusion power, etc. explained.

We've had these mechanisms for 40 years now. "They" (the inhabitants of the Imperium) have had them for over a thousand years. So let's settle these things, and build a universe around them. Can there still be wonders in such a universe? Of course. But you don't build a civilization on "wonders", not one the size of the Imperium.

It's one thing for a tribe in animal skins that happens to be worshipping a long-running, abandoned, Fusion generator that happens to be next to a lake for fuel and provides a continuous source of warmth without any clue as to how it works.

It's quite another to raise a galaxy wide empire based on such technologies.

If you want to reset the story, then reset the magic upon which the stories rely and work them out so future stories can work with them.

Founding principles.

Yes, it's my gear headed grognardness that barks about this stuff, but it's also the stuff that spews legions of threads, everywhere in the community.

So if they want to refresh it, start with the basics. And go from there. Because we live in a physical universe. it's not magic, it's technology, and someone knows how it works.

 

[robject]

Yeah, I get to that point pretty fast. Perhaps not as fast as you. But people like Don could just dive deeper and deeper with no end in sight.

Which is why the pursuit of completeness is a bad goal, by the way. But so is the pursuit of perfection... laying a perfect foundation is just as hard as patching an imperfect one.

And Don showed us the main reason why this is so: scope creep may turn these tasks into incompletable monsters.

When I think "300 documents", I immediately suspect that many of those documents shouldn't have been bothered with. That includes material which I cannot get access to, such as DGP products -- which do feature prominently in Don's timeline, by the way -- but it also includes documents which may only contribute one line of information.

 

[robject]

T5 should move forward to the Galaxiad era and leave the third Imperium to MGT.

Heretical statement I know, but is time to stop flogging the crater where the corpse of the horse was with regards to reconciling the mess that is previous canon and write new stuff.

By the way: not heretical. Someone needs to keep saying it, and you're consistent with it.

 

[flykiller]

And Don showed us the main reason why this is so: scope creep may turn these tasks into incompletable monsters.

the imperium covers ten sectors and a thousand years. and that's not counting several thousand years of vilani history. and that's just the imperium.

how could there not be "scope creep"? as I said before, a game must be located in a setting and eventually that setting must be defined. in traveller the setting definition would fill an encyclopedia.

 

[Timerover51]

Specifically, what is the OTU, distinct from the core elements of Traveller?

I think it has two elements:

• The Timeline
• Library Data

Don's timeline is a chronological index into canon. It points to data entries which essentially form a kind of distributed library data.

As I see it, you have multiple OTUs. You have the Classic OTU, the MegaTraveller OTU, the Mongoose OTU, The New Era OTU, Marc's T4 OTU, the GURPS OTU, and now the T5 OTU. If you are playing in one, you are not playing in another. As for harmonizing all of the third party products, I fail to see the reason for that. How many players have access to all of the various Traveller additions and third party supplements? By including them in the various OTUs, all you do is create massive confusion.

 

[aramis]

By the way: not heretical. Someone needs to keep saying it, and you're consistent with it.

Everything Marc's had me look at points to galaxiad. Rob's been CC'd on most of them. (Also on those lists Greg, Andrea, and Craig.)

 

[robject]

the imperium covers ten sectors and a thousand years. and that's not counting several thousand years of vilani history. and that's just the imperium.

how could there not be "scope creep"? as I said before, a game must be located in a setting and eventually that setting must be defined. in traveller the setting definition would fill an encyclopedia.

Actually that's a good example. Yes, there are ten sectors. How many people do we need to pore over every one of those UWPs? And how much time do those people need to do it? And how many estimates do I make that are baldly, highly optimistic?

But here's the real question: is that a higher priority than anything else?

IS there a prioritized list? Don didn't prioritize, and his plans were not short-term enough. We have less free time than we think. Prioritize.

After Don's death, I prioritized my Traveller list, and I'm regularly re-evaluating what's worth the effort and what can't be done in my lifetime.

 

[robject]

Everything Marc's had me look at points to galaxiad. Rob's been CC'd on most of them. (Also on those lists Greg, Andrea, and Craig.)

Even so, that's not his top priority. The errata is top priority, then the Player's Book. (Well OK, the Player's Book forces Galaxiad up in priority, since the book has a player's introduction to the setting).

 

[robject]

I'll revise my OP statement to this:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]I think it has two elements:

• The Timeline
• The Traveller Wiki

[/FONT]

 

[whartung]

Actually that's a good example. Yes, there are ten sectors. How many people do we need to pore over every one of those UWPs? And how much time do those people need to do it? And how many estimates do I make that are baldly, highly optimistic?

Pour over and doing what?

 

[mike wightman]

Even so, that's not his top priority. The errata is top priority, then the Player's Book. (Well OK, the Player's Book forces Galaxiad up in priority, since the book has a player's introduction to the setting).

I think that is a mistake.
The T5 rules are in a good enough state now to write the Galaxiad setting.

Not enough people play T5 to get the errata sorted, and we have now been discussing the Player's Book for nearly as long as we playtested T5 - with no movement forward.

There is a very bad feedback loop going on with the Player's Book - it can't be written until T5 has been completed and corrected, which can't happen without people playing it and providing feedback, which won't happen until a Player's Book is available...

Give us the setting to play in, we have the rules.

In a few months MgT will have their Third Imperium book, Mindjammer will have released its MgT compatible version, and we are still arguing about conflicting canon in a setting that was written for umpteen different version of rules and hence produced umpteen points of conflict.

I do not want to use T5 to play CT, MT, TNE, M:0, ISW or the Long Night. I want to use T5 in the setting that was promised - the Galaxiad.

 

[flykiller]

But here's the real question: is that a higher priority than anything else?

the highest priority is the individual referee with his individual game who is looking at a handful (at MOST) of worlds and wondering, "how am I going to do this?"

the second priority is the individual referee with his individual game who is trying to expand it beyond the initial operating area.

perhaps instead of a top-down view, you could take a bottom-up view. find out how and where referees start, and respond to and build from that. not with "here's an adventure, plug it in" but "here's an operation area - jewell, louzy/efate, lunion/strouden - use this for your inititial setting".

 

[robject]

The T5 rules are in a good enough state now to write the Galaxiad setting.

Yes, they are.

Not enough people play T5 to get the errata sorted, and we have now been discussing the Player's Book for nearly as long as we playtested T5 - with no movement forward.

Don't worry, it's not a feedback loop. And no, you don't want uncorrected errors going into the Player's Book (there's movement you haven't seen, but Marc *is* slow). And, we don't have to wait for feedback: the current errata will do just fine.

As far as Galaxiad, yes, Marc needs to just get on with it, but he tends to work on Traveller in parallel: no one thing he does for it is in a vacuum. This is why Don got a little testy with Marc over errata: Marc would be working on other things, and only give some of his time to errata.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

So I grepped out the publishers and page references out of Don's Timeline. It wasn't a perfect job, but it's good enough for analysis.

He has around 300 sources documented.

It is incomplete.

Does the copy you have of the timeline have OTU events after the 1115? The copy I have does not. However using the "Whatever Marc says it is" T5.09 rules on page 17 includes the eras of OTU history leading up to Galaxiad. There TNE and 1248 are part of history, like it or not.
One of Don's biases was to not address Rebellion and its later times.