Canon Problems with MgT Third Imperium supplements?
- Thread starter robject
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GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Aside from the Aslan art?
Robject, you have opened the proverbial :CoW:.
Aside from the countless complaints of the art in Aslan (literally turning them into men in lion headed costumes), and the turning of the Vargar from "The wolves of Space" into the blood-hound headed dog-men, not to mention the "Elves in space treatment of the Darrians, the biggest issue with Mongooses alien supplements are with Solomani and Sword-Worlds.
The Solomani have been scrubbed of all redeeming features, and literally turned into a species of racists and fascists. If you accept and play them as written in the Solomani book published by Mongoose, they are in no way suitable for use as anything other than NPC villains and foes. Allowing players to run PCs using those rules is tantamount to telling them that Hate and Racism are acceptable beliefs and suitable values to role-play. The Men of the star Sol, the descendants of those humans who originated on Earth, have been turned into what amounts to being "Space-Nazis". The book is neither family friendly, nor anything that should be associated with the Traveller IP.
As for the Sword -Worlders, they have been stripped of enough of their background depth that they are now almost as bad as the Solomani. They have been reduced to misogynistic space-vikings, and a bad parody of the cultures they are said to be descended from.
Sadly, if you take the time and read almost any of the Mongoose Alien modules, and are able to ignore the outright horrible artwork, you are going to find they are rife with errors, full of statements that run contrary to versions that have come before them, and make a mockery of what were once amazing parts of the Traveller IP.
Aside from the countless complaints of the art in Aslan (literally turning them into men in lion headed costumes), and the turning of the Vargar from "The wolves of Space" into the blood-hound headed dog-men, not to mention the "Elves in space treatment of the Darrians, the biggest issue with Mongooses alien supplements are with Solomani and Sword-Worlds.
The Solomani have been scrubbed of all redeeming features, and literally turned into a species of racists and fascists. If you accept and play them as written in the Solomani book published by Mongoose, they are in no way suitable for use as anything other than NPC villains and foes. Allowing players to run PCs using those rules is tantamount to telling them that Hate and Racism are acceptable beliefs and suitable values to role-play. The Men of the star Sol, the descendants of those humans who originated on Earth, have been turned into what amounts to being "Space-Nazis". The book is neither family friendly, nor anything that should be associated with the Traveller IP.
As for the Sword -Worlders, they have been stripped of enough of their background depth that they are now almost as bad as the Solomani. They have been reduced to misogynistic space-vikings, and a bad parody of the cultures they are said to be descended from.
Sadly, if you take the time and read almost any of the Mongoose Alien modules, and are able to ignore the outright horrible artwork, you are going to find they are rife with errors, full of statements that run contrary to versions that have come before them, and make a mockery of what were once amazing parts of the Traveller IP.
Apart from Don's Zhodani module, I ignore every MgT module.
It wasn't a decision made lightly. It was a decision that was made after close reading of the products in question.
Mongoose has both dumbed down canon and removed any of the nuances that previously existed. It's sad to think that there are Traveller players who only know Mongoose's version.
It wasn't a decision made lightly. It was a decision that was made after close reading of the products in question.
Mongoose has both dumbed down canon and removed any of the nuances that previously existed. It's sad to think that there are Traveller players who only know Mongoose's version.
OK then. Let's evaluate their books at a high level.
[FONT=arial,helvetica](I note the curious possibility that canon problems with MgT will pass out of significance if they let their titles go out of print as fast as they seem to be doing).
(Which is a shame due to MgT: Zhodani)
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[FONT=arial,helvetica](I note the curious possibility that canon problems with MgT will pass out of significance if they let their titles go out of print as fast as they seem to be doing).
(Which is a shame due to MgT: Zhodani)
[/FONT]
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
These days? Not so much. Us old folks like physical books, but PDFs are the default for Mongoose and many others. Physical print runs are becoming less and less significant to the survival of an RPG product. The only Traveller products that are now threatened with death by obscurity are those Marc has not been able to re-release as PDFs; namely the DGP and Paranoia Press lines and umpty jillion magazine articles.
For a Canon analysis, Mongoose has produced relatively few books, but I don't think we can use the lack of a current print run to ignore them.
Tonal shifts are not new with Mongoose, either. The nature of the Aslan has been a tug-of-war since very early, and the questions about the Vargr ability to form states or develop high technology are similarly as old as CT. The Solomani of CT are pretty unsympathetic, while DGP pulled the other way. Hans (via GURPS) tried to make the Sword Worlders less of the unstable dupes they come across as in CT materials, but I'm not sure he succeeded. The K'kree and Hivers have also see-sawed; it is actually considered a feature of the Hivers instead of a bug.
Approaching ALL of them as DGP and TNE did, as "in universe" documents aside from the game mechanical bits, largely solves the problem. ALL of it is propaganda written by someone within the setting. Objectivity is fleeting within those pages. All of it is true of some; none of it is true for all.
Well, except for the Mongoose Aslan art.
OK, granted that "in universe" is a good way to approach Traveller books.
Since the discussion has evolved to this point, then, let me ask the real question: is it too much effort to write Third Imperium material? Traveller material in general?
The first answer is "no": every document is "in universe".
But the second answer is "yes": despite the in-universe-ness of books, there is such a thing as core canon... but it's slippery and scattered.
Since the discussion has evolved to this point, then, let me ask the real question: is it too much effort to write Third Imperium material? Traveller material in general?
The first answer is "no": every document is "in universe".
But the second answer is "yes": despite the in-universe-ness of books, there is such a thing as core canon... but it's slippery and scattered.
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
Tangent Question: What would you call the definitive source of GOOD aslan art?
Apparently it doesn't exist.
Key elements: Felinoid, but not TOO lion like. Thumb as described in the original is directly opposed to the middle finger, rather than parallel and foldable like ours. I suspect the paw should be like a meaty chicken foot...
The best illos are Bill Kieth's... but even Bill put hands & feet too much like ours on them.
The Aslan book by Mongoose misses many nuances in the text, and has illos that are too leonine. Aslan Males shouldn't look like the Cowardly Lion from TWoOz...
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
How do these look?
good effort and artwork, but they're not alien. they're ... I dunno, the top one looks like a cross between a french knight, a dune house-of-atradees noble, and a samurai having a bad hair day, and the bottom one looks like a housecat that lost a fight, badly. and yeah, they look like cat/lion heads stuck on human bodies. originally aslan were described as "vaguely leonine", not cat people, and the first illustration I ever saw resembled a super-heavyweight kangaroo rat which seemed to me to be a step in the right direction.
and in truth I really don't see any fur-bearing creature wearing clothes, ever. some equipment, maybe, but not clothes. like chewbacca.
(heh. "chewbacca" is in the spell checker.)
and in truth I really don't see any fur-bearing creature wearing clothes, ever. some equipment, maybe, but not clothes. like chewbacca.
(heh. "chewbacca" is in the spell checker.)
Like something out of Albedo, the RPG for furries.
Aslan are not furries. They're described as "vaguely leonine" and not "hominids with lion heads complete with manes". As for depictions of the Aslan in Traveller, Bill Keith's work is probably the best of a lot that runs from mediocre to bad to cringeworthy.
The Vargr aren't furries either. Nor are they "just" wolves and dogs.
It's stated as early as the CT Alien Module and repeated up through GT that studies of Vargr genetics show that the Ancients sampled both Canid and Canidae, groups which not only include wolves and dogs but also foxes, jackals, and other species both extent and extinct.
How do these look?
Look like an attempt at Aslan and Prt'!
And reminded me of this guy's work:
http://alexvontolmacsy.deviantart.com/art/kilrathi-301813626
http://alexvontolmacsy.deviantart.com/art/mrrshan-12657125
How do these look?
They look like they are modernized MekPurr from Space Opera. But at least the most glaring issues of most of the art aren't present to be wrong.
The ASlan female shown in AM Aslan for CT has 4 significant breasts, a more buxom one might have the 2 additional significant enough to show; the ostensibly female shown here is clear only 2 breasts, due to the dive of the shirt.
The hands are not visible on either.
The faces are WAY too prognathous, having muzzles, which the canonical aslan do not. THe aslan face is essentially an off-center pyramid with the nares flat - no
The male has a mane around the face; canonical aslan manes are back of the head and tufs below the ears, not full round the head.
The heads are too small on both; aslan heads are massive. The jaw muscles on the heavy jaw are huge on canonical aslan. The skull is far narrower than the head; their musculature is positively massive, as are the short jaws
She is lacking the flowing back of head hair that typifies the AM1 Aslan.
The S&A Aslan have the central opposed thumb, the AM1 aslan have an offset thumb, but it can be pulled central.
The female is passable; the male is no where nearly close enough.
